Are Black Knights a good AA unit?

[Dr Zaius]

Let's see: a devastator marine with missile launcher and flakk missiles costs 39 points. That's 0.66 S7 AP4 hits on fliers. A unit of 5 devastators with flakk missiles will cost 170 points  for 2.83 hits (using the signum)

 

A Black Kinght with Plasma Talons costs 42 points and scores 0.61 S7 AP2 hits on fliers while on rapid fire range. A unit of 4 black kinghts will cost 168 points  for 2.44 hits

 

They are pretty similar, the difference of course is range, as Black Knights have only a 21 UM range, but  are T5, have +4 cover save, are very mobile and good assaulting. And they can outflank and look for rear hits.

 

With these numbers. Is better having Black Knights as AA than devastators?

[Master Avoghai]

They are similar but what you must take into account is also the chance to obtain glancing or Pen hits.

 

Due to the lower S, it's more difficult for a knights squadron to get HP... And even more to get a Pen hit where they can profit from their advantage over ML : the AP2.

[Dr Zaius]

They are similar but what you must take into account is also the chance to obtain glancing or Pen hits.

 

Due to the lower S, it's more difficult for a knights squadron to get HP... And even more to get a Pen hit where they can profit from their advantage over ML : the AP2.

 

Both Flakk Missiles and Plasma Talons are S7

[Shiodome]

also plasma has better AP, so will do more damage if it penetrates.  they're also better able to get shots on rear armour for things like stormravens and hell drakes.  but it shouldn't be ignored that devastators are frequently (if not nearly always) run with a prescience librarian.  

[Master Avoghai]

Both Flakk Missiles and Plasma Talons are S7

They are? Thought it was krak missiles with AA rules

 

O_o

[elphilo]

Both Flakk Missiles and Plasma Talons are S7

They are? Thought it was krak missiles with AA rules

O_o

Nope, that would really make them worth the extra points

[pueriexdeus]

I'm confused, when did the BK Plasma Talon get Skyfire?

[Brom MKIV]

They didn't but twin linked rapid fire is that good. I feel BKs are the hidden AA of or codex.

[Djulius]

Whereas, if I understand it (and you're allowed to use it) a Mortis Dreadnought with 2x twinlinked Lascannons @155 points with skyfire and interceptor...?  Haven't got the rules handy to do the maths.

 

A static long range armour killer against an extremely effective mobile 'dragoon' unit (i.e. ride to flank, shoot, ride away leaving them to cc specialists...) - interesting trade off?   I presume you've not given BK the stasis grenade?

[Upstartes]

i think it depends on your list and your battle plan for it.

 

ML devs have frag and krak missiles as well as the flakk missiles, giving them a lot of flexibility at 48". You can also bolster them with cheap ablative wounds (i.e. extra marines in the squad), whereas every time you loose a black knight you lose... well, a black knight. Devs will also probably draw less fire initially than the knights, who look big and scary and are usually right up in the enemy koolaid on round 1. If you have a techmarine, they can get 3+ cover saves in a bolstered ruin. Lastly, the devs can man an aegis defense line quad gun or take cover in a fortification while still doing exactly what you purchased them for.

 

None of this makes them better than BKs in an absolute sense. However, in some lists they may be a better anti-air choice than BKs.

[IanSturrock]

Black Knights are also *much* more likely to manage side or even rear armour shots against flyers than any flakk missiles we can field. I think they may indeed be our best AA.

[Master Avoghai]

This is a good point though you don't recruit BK only for AA.

 

The point of the topic is rather : when you already have BK there's no need for a dev with AA missiles.

But what you must take into consideration is that you nearly always recruit a GL into this squad.

So it will influence the stats results...

[GlauG]

For what it's worth, my Black Knights have managed every single AA kill for me since the new dex came out.  It's very easy to underestimate non-skyfire weapons against flyers, but a squad's worth TL rapidfire S7 shots are enough to pop a Vendetta even from the front, with a bit of luck. 

[Jehoel]

The advantage of taking both a dev squad with flakk missiles and a black knight squad is that the enemy will see the flakk missiles as your anti-air first, but it is in the distraction that the dev squad serves best. Classic three shell game. Keep them watching the wrong hand so they don't see the kill coming from the other hand.

[Brother Immolator]

The advantage of taking both a dev squad with flakk missiles and a black knight squad is that the enemy will see the flakk missiles as your anti-air first, but it is in the distraction that the dev squad serves best. Classic three shell game. Keep them watching the wrong hand so they don't see the kill coming from the other hand.

 

That is a good tactic me likey.  Though I cram my flakks on my tac squads.

[Jehoel]

Oh, I have a flakk missile launcher on each tac squad too. Hidden anti-air is the way to go.

[march10k]

Actually, no dedicated anti-air is the way to go.  Prescience lascannon devastators are going to average more than one hit per round of shooting, if you shoot them at a flier.  Plasma talons are going to be as devastating as a flak missile devastator squad.  Deepstriking deathwing with assault cannons are nothing to sneeze at, either.  There's enough capable enough incidental anti-air shooting in a normal list that taking dedicated anti-air is unnecessary when you face a flier or two, and wasteful when you don't.

[Jehoel]

The reason I went with flakk missiles is the launchers do double duty as anti-tank and anti-horde. It gives more options than lascannons would. While the full lascannon dev squad would be cheaper than a full flakk missile dev squad, the lascannon squad would be weaker against a horde army.

[Rizara]

Flakk missles woudl be great, if they weren't so darn expensive for such a lowsy str 7 shot.   If the basic missle launcher went back to being a free choice, and you just paid the flak upgrade price it wouldn't be back, but at 30 points for a missle launcher with flak, its a bit overprice, since they reduced the str from 8 to 7 with a single shot.   At that price they should have left it str 8, and you are basically just paying for skyfire, not getting a worthless missle. 

 

That being the case, i couldn't agree more, i prefer assault cannons over missle launchers.  Sure they are shorter range, but they tend to be more effective, can hit flyers descently as well, even more so when you get a twin linked variety in your list ala razorbacks.  They are also effective and mowing through troops, taking out light vehicles, and I have even been known to destroy land raiders with them even though that takes alot of assault cannon shots aimed at them.

 

Having the talons being able to take down a flyer is just a bonus, means my small squad will probably still find a place in my army most of the time, and getting another box of black knights to bring it up to a unit of 6 is now on my wishlist. 

Also flyers are nasty, I will give them that, they can be frustrating, but You have to recall, flyers wont appear till turn 2 at best, often times turn 3 or later.   Flyers aren't troops, they can't take objectives, so if you build your army around taking out that lone flyer or two, then you aren't really remembering the objective, which is to remove your opponents troops as quickly as possible, so they can't take objectives at all.    And so far the only flyer that I have faced is the baleflaming chaos dragon wanna be, and it only baleflamed me once.   I lost the battle, but only cause the enemy wiped out my army, his flyer was a bit on the lackluster side, it was the vindicators he took that were my main issue.  

[march10k]

The reason I went with flakk missiles is the launchers do double duty as anti-tank and anti-horde. It gives more options than lascannons would. While the full lascannon dev squad would be cheaper than a full flakk missile dev squad, the lascannon squad would be weaker against a horde army.

 

I couldn't agree with you less.  You'd have a point if it were the flak upgrade that made the missile launcher better against hordes.  But it's not, you're trying to pull a bait and switch.  The basic missile launcher is all you need to outperform the lascannon against hordes.  You can't use "you might face hordes" as a justification for flak launchers.  If it's hordes you're worried about, save yourself the 20 points per model and get a basic missile launcher!  Compared to the basic missile launcher, the flak launcher is 50% more versatile for 300% the price!  No sale!

[Upstartes]

I don't understand your math. Adding flakk to an ML is a 67% price increase, not a 300% price increase.

[Jehoel]

 

The reason I went with flakk missiles is the launchers do double duty as anti-tank and anti-horde. It gives more options than lascannons would. While the full lascannon dev squad would be cheaper than a full flakk missile dev squad, the lascannon squad would be weaker against a horde army.

 

I couldn't agree with you less.  You'd have a point if it were the flak upgrade that made the missile launcher better against hordes.  But it's not, you're trying to pull a bait and switch.  The basic missile launcher is all you need to outperform the lascannon against hordes.  You can't use "you might face hordes" as a justification for flak launchers.  If it's hordes you're worried about, save yourself the 20 points per model and get a basic missile launcher!  Compared to the basic missile launcher, the flak launcher is 50% more versatile for 300% the price!  No sale!

 

I'm not trying to pull a "bait and switch" at all. As you said, a missile launcher is better against hordes than a lascannon is. Show me in the codex or BGB that adding flakk missiles removes the frag missile and then I'll concede that I overstated myself. I'll say it again, I take a flakk missile dev sqaud because it gives more options than a lascannon does. A flakk missile launcher dev marine costs 5 points more than a lascannon dev marine. A minor price difference that I am willing to pay. You do what you want to do, I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. And your statement of "300% price increase" is pure hyperbole, so just stop.

[Brother Immolator]

On the flakk missile subject: Whats more important? To try and take out: two regular models at best (frag), a single tough one (krakk) or a flyer(flakk)?

[Jehoel]

On the flakk missile subject: Whats more important? To try and take out: two regular models at best (frag), a single tough one (krakk) or a flyer(flakk)?

 

For me, whichever is the greatest threat. Being able to deal with any of those three in each round is part of why I like flakk missile launchers. Lascannons, while great at 2 of those choices, are more than just a bit of overkill against most models.

[IndigoJack]

My problem with BKs as AA is that you have the same odds of getting hot as you do hitting a flyer, and I'm not sure it's worth losing a 42 point model for the chance to take out a flyer. I might use them in a pinch for AA, but not primary.