Warpflame and Tzeentch competitiveness

[Captain Idaho]

That's right, I went there! This is discussion I doubt I'd get much support in, which is fine because I'm partly playing devil's advocate and partly actually have a gut feeling it isn't as bad as people initially reacted to it.

 

Basically, some of the powers are so powerful they will take a great toll on units to the extent that even if the unit survives they'll not benefit from the pitiful FNP save they MIGHT get.

 

Tzeentch players will have to concentrate their fire first instead of trying to play the attrition war (which is a Nurgle thing anyway). This prevents opponents from getting the "benefits" of Warpflame.

 

So let's discuss. Tear this idea apart if inclined, though please don't use opinion culled from internet knee jerk reactions to form your argument! ;)

[Iron Sage]

That's right, I went there! This is discussion I doubt I'd get much support in, which is fine because I'm partly playing devil's advocate and partly actually have a gut feeling it isn't as bad as people initially reacted to it.

Basically, some of the powers are so powerful they will take a great toll on units to the extent that even if the unit survives they'll not benefit from the pitiful FNP save they MIGHT get.

Tzeentch players will have to concentrate their fire first instead of trying to play the attrition war (which is a Nurgle thing anyway). This prevents opponents from getting the "benefits" of Warpflame.

So let's discuss. Tear this idea apart if inclined, though please don't use opinion culled from internet knee jerk reactions to form your argument!

Your correct IMO.

Warpflame is still a very, very bad rule, and Tzeentch Firestorm is a bad spell, but other than that, I agree 100%. There is a danger seeing the Tag "warpflame" and immediatly blacking out intellectually IMO (almost did that myself immediatly after cursing as I saw all change spells had that tag). Primaris, Bolt of tzeentch and Infernal Gateway are all very good spells indeed.

I have actually contemplated a LoC with divination primaris for my CSM and 2 Change spells, just because I too, noted the damage potential of those very spells. In the end, I am probably going for a Lv 3 Divination, but I might go for lv 2+ lv 1 Change.

[Seahawk]

Horrors need to cast as much 4D6 flickering fire as possible. 4 units of 20 only run 820 (champ, banner, blasted standard), and it's all heavy bolter shots, plus the blasted standard of even more hits.

 

Double L4 Lords of Change with 2 Greater and 1 Lesser, and we're at 1430. That gives you some insta-gib and AP2. Next we take 4 L1 Heralds with Prescience and Locus of Conjuration to reroll those ridiculous amounts of S6 pew pew. 

 

Two units of 5 flamers provide horde control (as if you don't already have it!).

 

With the 60 points leftover, take the Grimoire and Portalglyph on heralds to keep stuff alive and spawn more flickering fire. 

 

 

 

2k list of shooty death! Provided you aren't playing against anti-psykers of course...

 

Focusing fire until units are wiped out is definitely the key, and with 80 models spewing S6 shooting, it should be doable.

[Iron Sage]

Horrors need to cast as much 4D6 flickering fire as possible. 4 units of 20 only run 820 (champ, banner, blasted standard), and it's all heavy bolter shots, plus the blasted standard of even more hits.

 

Double L4 Lords of Change with 2 Greater and 1 Lesser, and we're at 1430. That gives you some insta-gib and AP2. Next we take 4 L1 Heralds with Prescience and Locus of Conjuration to reroll those ridiculous amounts of S6 pew pew. 

 

Two units of 5 flamers provide horde control (as if you don't already have it!).

 

With the 60 points leftover, take the Grimoire and Portalglyph on heralds to keep stuff alive and spawn more flickering fire. 

 

 

 

2k list of shooty death! Provided you aren't playing against anti-psykers of course...

 

Focusing fire until units are wiped out is definitely the key, and with 80 models spewing S6 shooting, it should be doable.

I dont know. I dont think there is just one way to use these, Seahawk. I am a fan of minimum horror squads as well.... They do shoot their regular warpcharge 1 attack even if down to one man, and they are fearless against reange combat. That to me, indicates that its quite possible to use it as a pesky distraction. You dont want to leave one guy alone after all, as 1 is enough to channel the spell.

[Seahawk]

True...I was just going for maximum carnage. 

[EricBasser]

Not sure if this is a no brainer, but what about the champ and herald using the shooting attacks. Both would get precision shots, right? With 7D6 shots, there should be plenty 6s to put shots on models you want gone. With Brotherhood of sorcerers, you pick what model fires.

 

Portaglyph is a must.

 

Once the Burning Chariot gets changed, it should be good. I can imagine a small horror squad with Icon summoning these things for no scatter. If 2 of them can drop in, that's two torrent ap3 flamers.

 

Other thing is trying to get enfeeble and negating warpflame. Marines minus one toughness and str 6 flicker flame means no FnP. Princes get Biomancy.

 

Just some thoughts I had, and now there's a thread for it.

[Narse]

I was thinking that they are a horde version of Eldar Scatterlaser warwalkers.

 

Now put that in a bastion?? eh... eh... Maybe??   (6 fire ports on each side, i'll only need 1 for the squad, and 1 for each herald)  a Minimum Herald still adds 2d6 shots.

 

There are two nice things about these guys, their is no side effect when shooting vehicles.  :P   and they can deepstrike.   Small units for deepstriking behind enemy vehicles, big squads with Heralds for the Bastion. 

[Godhead]

The biggest thing I dislike is that you roll to see if your power goes off, your opponent rolls to deny, you roll for the number of shots, then you roll to hit, then you roll to wound, and to top it off im a random ass shooting unit that gets denied overwatch then get beat in cc by tactile marines because of zero combat ability, and fearless wounds due to the instability rules. True story happened tonight. The same guy was like "dude I feel like your doing all the work for me" as I'd lose combat by 1 with screamers, then fail instability miserably and lose another 2+ models. For me, I'm finding that there are so many little things adding together that's removing the enjoyment from one of my favorite armies. I had more fun in fourth edition with daemons than I am now. :(

[Gentlemanloser]

 

tactile marines

 

I hear that chapter is very touchy-feely, and in touch with thier feminie side/inner child. ;)

 

Light hearted brevity aside, Godhead really hits the nail on the head there.

 

Fearless wounds were bad, so were rightly removed.  Yet Daemons get them back.  You can't overwatch with a Psychic Power, and rightfully all Daemon Psychic Powers can now be stopped by everything designed to stop powers.

 

It's vulnerabilty on top of vulnerability.  And Daemons have recived nothing in return.

[Captain Idaho]

That's not entirely true. Overwatch isn't that decisive and as a Daemon player you should be able to get your hands on something nasty in assaults remember, so yes Horrors are weaker in assaults but your opponents won't be able to assault them with impunity when your Greater Daemons, Princes etc are coming for him.

 

As for fearless and instability... Yes it's a weakness but less of a weakness than it is for all the other non-Marines armies. I actually believe No Retreat! wounds shouldn't have been removed in the first place.

[Nehekhare]

champ and herald using the shooting attacks. Both would get precision shots

not too sure that the brotherhood of sorcerers counts as the unit character shooting.

 

Portaglyph is a must.

not. with only 1 HP it will just be a free killpoint for the enemy.

 

instability... Yes it's a weakness but less of a weakness than it is for all the other non-Marines armies.

how so?

[Captain Idaho]

Because it's better to lose a couple extra models than have the whole unit break and die or re-charged.

 

Portaglyphs: if they don't have to be placed then they're hardly a free kill point. Which is only 1 out of 5 games anyway.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I actually believe No Retreat! wounds shouldn't have been removed in the first place.

 

Totally disagree.

 

It made fearless a liabilty in CC, with Stubborn being so much better.  Especially when you can cheese a Fearless unit/IC to death by multi charging/combating a far weaker unit, wiping them out, dealing no damage tot he Fearless unit, then making them take 10 or so extra wounds, for nothing.

 

Fearless No Retreat wounds desperatley needed to go.

[Nehekhare]

Because it's better to lose a couple extra models than have the whole unit break and die or re-charged.

I see. you mean it's better than nothing, true. (well exept that it disallows IC joining)

 

Portaglyphs: if they don't have to be placed then they're hardly a free kill point. Which is only 1 out of 5 games anyway.

I meant the portalglyph itself, an AV12 HP1 5++ vehicle in an army that hasn't many other vehicles for the enemy's AT-weapons to train onto. any daemons it might (theoretically, that is) spawn, are even more free killpoints. not to mention that spawned horrors come without psipowers as it is (chosen at the start of the game as per RAW)...

[Sception]

are gifts rolled for or chosen before scenario?  I thought it was after, such that you'd never have a portalglyph in the kill point mission anyway.  And even if you do, the point that you can just choose not to drop it still stands.  It probably isn't going to last very long or do anything unless you get really, really lucky on a scatter into a covered location, but it isn't going to feed anybody any kill points, because nothing is forcing you to drop it in kill point missions.

 

As for horrors...  Big squads get more mileage out of conjuration heralds, but multiple small squads get the same number of shots total, and have more chances to get something through psychic defenses.  One max squad is 4d6 shots, but so is two separate squads, even when reduced to one model each.  Then again, more, smaller uses of flickering fire is more chances to buff your enemies while hardly damaging them at all, so you know what never mind everything I just said.

 

I sure do hate that rule.  It's awful.

 

 

 

I like the precision shots thing, but fear it will be faq'd away.

 

Otherwise, I agree with those who see this as just too much bother to deal with.  Again, first you need to pass your psychic test, then you need to pass the opponent's psychic defenses, then you need to pass their deny the witch, then you need to roll well on number of shots, then you need to hit, then you need to wound, then you need the opponent to roll poorly on their saves.  It's too many chances to fail, too many rolls, which takes too long to do at the table so it gets boring especialy with multiple units, and even if you get past psychic defenses you still have four chances to flub some dice roll, only end up with a couple wounds, and risk giving the target a permanent buff in exchange for hardly damaging it at all.

 

And all to try to make a unit work after it was given probably the dumbest rule I've ever seen.  Even if you can make them viable, I just wouldn't want to have to deal with that garbage.  Every horror or flamer that touches the table from this point on vindicates and validates a god awful rule that should never have been printed.  I refuse to field them on that ground alone.

[Captain Idaho]

 

I actually believe No Retreat! wounds shouldn't have been removed in the first place.

 

Totally disagree.

 

It made fearless a liabilty in CC, with Stubborn being so much better.  Especially when you can cheese a Fearless unit/IC to death by multi charging/combating a far weaker unit, wiping them out, dealing no damage tot he Fearless unit, then making them take 10 or so extra wounds, for nothing.

 

Fearless No Retreat wounds desperatley needed to go.

The problem with this method is it results in a swing the other way. You've identified a problem with Fearless so instead of fixing the problem you completely remove it and now create a new problem on the opposite end of the scale.

 

Basically the problem you've identified (which was situational anyway) could have been resolved by a simple ruling that Fearless units that lose a combat suffer an additional wound for every model removed as a casualty from their unit that assault phase. Done and much more realistic to boot.

 

Instead we've got a situation where 11 Termagants can hold up a Terminater squad for 2 Assault phases by charging them and being fearless (lucky Overwatch notwithstanding), even if there's only 1 left. Any other unit would flee barring insane luck.

[*Furyou Miko]

More to the point, Idaho, in real life the Terminators would probably just move on and let the Termagant keep trying to scratch at their ankles.

[Iron Sage]

are gifts rolled for or chosen before scenario?  I thought it was after, such that you'd never have a portalglyph in the kill point mission anyway.  And even if you do, the point that you can just choose not to drop it still stands.  It probably isn't going to last very long or do anything unless you get really, really lucky on a scatter into a covered location, but it isn't going to feed anybody any kill points, because nothing is forcing you to drop it in kill point missions.

 

As for horrors...  Big squads get more mileage out of conjuration heralds, but multiple small squads get the same number of shots total, and have more chances to get something through psychic defenses.  One max squad is 4d6 shots, but so is two separate squads, even when reduced to one model each.  Then again, more, smaller uses of flickering fire is more chances to buff your enemies while hardly damaging them at all, so you know what never mind everything I just said.

 

I sure do hate that rule.  It's awful.

 

 

 

I like the precision shots thing, but fear it will be faq'd away.

 

Otherwise, I agree with those who see this as just too much bother to deal with.  Again, first you need to pass your psychic test, then you need to pass the opponent's psychic defenses, then you need to pass their deny the witch, then you need to roll well on number of shots, then you need to hit, then you need to wound, then you need the opponent to roll poorly on their saves.  It's too many chances to fail, too many rolls, which takes too long to do at the table so it gets boring especialy with multiple units, and even if you get past psychic defenses you still have four chances to flub some dice roll, only end up with a couple wounds, and risk giving the target a permanent buff in exchange for hardly damaging it at all.

 

And all to try to make a unit work after it was given probably the dumbest rule I've ever seen.  Even if you can make them viable, I just wouldn't want to have to deal with that garbage.  Every horror or flamer that touches the table from this point on vindicates and validates a god awful rule that should never have been printed.  I refuse to field them on that ground alone.

I dont agree with everything in your post, but IMO that was a damn good post ;)

 

And yes, I so agree that Warpflame is the dumbest rule in Warhammer/40K.

 

I do have 40 Dryads that I have always planned for Horror conversion though, so I guess I eventually will  actually test the chaps in action one day when I so bother to play around with that much greenstuff.

 

As for now, I do quite like the minimum squads, though it might be personal preference as i am fairly fond of irritants and diversions. Part of what appeals to me with minimum squads is also the fact that 3 Change spells then becomes interesting, and not just one (Tzeentch firestorm is awful whatever you do I am afraid). Makes for a relativly unreliable unit I confess, but still one that can make a "cheap shot" or two!

 

Would be interested in hearing what you guys think about minimum horror squads.

[Gentlemanloser]

It wasn't just in that situation Cap, that was just an example of how the liability could be, leavered.

 

Fearless was a more, potent, special rule than Stubborn, yet it was a liability in CC rather than a benefit.  If you've lost combat, more often than not that means you've already lost a significant number of the unit.  Instead of getting an I check (or being Marines and ignoring this anyway), you now take an extra number of wound, which would wipe the squad out anyway.

 

Which Marines again wouldn't have suffered from.

 

Sure, Fearless/No retreat chance effects Xenos more than it does Marines, as ATSKNF is godly.  But from a Marine point of view, ATSKNF was less of a risk than Fearless.  Especially combined with the old Rites of Battle.

 

It made little sense for Marines, that gaining Fearless made you more likely to die from losing an Assault.  As at least you had a Leadership test you could always Insane Bravado if necessary.

 

No Retreat wounds needed to go.  If this then makes Sweeping Advance too much of a detriment for Xenos, well, change that.

 

Rather than letting Xenos get double hit by both Sweeping Advance *and* No Retreat.

[Iron Sage]

 

 

I actually believe No Retreat! wounds shouldn't have been removed in the first place.

 

Totally disagree.

 

It made fearless a liabilty in CC, with Stubborn being so much better.  Especially when you can cheese a Fearless unit/IC to death by multi charging/combating a far weaker unit, wiping them out, dealing no damage tot he Fearless unit, then making them take 10 or so extra wounds, for nothing.

 

Fearless No Retreat wounds desperatley needed to go.

The problem with this method is it results in a swing the other way. You've identified a problem with Fearless so instead of fixing the problem you completely remove it and now create a new problem on the opposite end of the scale.

 

Basically the problem you've identified (which was situational anyway) could have been resolved by a simple ruling that Fearless units that lose a combat suffer an additional wound for every model removed as a casualty from their unit that assault phase. Done and much more realistic to boot.

 

Instead we've got a situation where 11 Termagants can hold up a Terminater squad for 2 Assault phases by charging them and being fearless (lucky Overwatch notwithstanding), even if there's only 1 left. Any other unit would flee barring insane luck.

Agreed. I have always found it rather queer that Fearless units in 6ed can pull stunts like that. IMO, Fearless units should all have suffered from Instabillity (instead being cheaper to counter the negative implications of that)-like "punishment" for losing a CC, or alternatly the rule should be far more rare.

 

The greatest problem in my opinion is however that "And they shall know no fear" is overpowered and severly underpriced. It is worth at least 2 points imo.

[*Furyou Miko]

Basically, the best way to fix Fearless is to turn it into ATSKNF. :D

[Nehekhare]

I have come to the conclusion that it is ATSKNF that needs to be fixed (perhaps by allowing it to get destroyed by sweeping advances).

 

about the portalglyph: are you implying that it would be better not to use the 30pt-reward you rolled at all?

[Iron Sage]

I have come to the conclusion that it is ATSKNF that needs to be fixed (perhaps by allowing it to get destroyed by sweeping advances).

about the portalglyph: are you implying that it would be better not to use the 30pt-reward you rolled at all?

You make a very good point there. By allowing ATSKNF units to be chased down (which also happen to be realistic), then their advantage would hardly be crippling anymore but actually a very interesting rule (it would still be a very good rule), while at the same time making fearless a more interesting rule as well. Kind of wish that Game Devs. would listen to you in that regard

Concerning the portalglyph in KP missions. Choosing not to use it, is no worse than having a particular unit that is bad against certain match ups

[EricBasser]

I think he's saying you can always keep the exalted roll instead of switching it for the portalglyph.

 

I think strategic deployment is needed with it. Block LoS, in a area that it can't scatter far/in open. Can always use it to bring Bloodletters in as a guard.

 

I like it because of all the objective missions. Yeah, D6 models will go down fast, but if they are shooting at it, that's one less squads firepower going towards your workhorse of the army. Be it FMC, large blobs of lesser daemons, or Soul Grinders. If they ignore it, that's another scoring unit on your table. Makes Line Breaker/Table Quarters easier.

[Nehekhare]

you can always keep the exalted roll instead of switching it for the portalglyph.

true, but that you would consider it proves that it is hardly a "must have" (as someone said earlier).

 

I can see it being pretty good in kill team missions, but with the one-shot-base and double scatter, everything else is preferable even in normal games I guess.

 

unless you model for advantage and represent the portal with an LoS-blocking mega-warprift of enormous propotions, that is :D

 

The riftbringer exalted reward is much better, but you have to roll it.