I want to like Chosen, but...

[*Furyou Miko]

Fun fact: English remains legible with a little effort if you miss out almost every letter in every word as long as the letters that ARE there are in roughly the right order.

[chillin]

Sage, I wasn't trying to make it personal either, and if I came off that way I apologize.  I'm a member of the "angry at Internet people is dumb" type of thinking.  And no, I don't have reading issues; in point of fact, I have better reading and writing comprehension than about 80-90% of Americans.  I'm just used to seeing the language typed/written correctly (case in point: I refuse to acknowledge emails, text messages, and other digital forms of messaging that used leet-speak or textese).

 

Jeske: fair enough. 

If you will only deal with people that write/speak perfect english, I'm guessing your world is very small and you are missing alot. Get out more.

If your reading and writing comprehension is so extraordianary you should have had no problem understanding what jeske said.

Compairing someone speaking/writing in a second language to mixing inches, feet, meters on a blueprint is absurd.

[the jeske]

+ after X here years most people already know what am going to write anyway.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

Sage, I wasn't trying to make it personal either, and if I came off that way I apologize.  I'm a member of the "angry at Internet people is dumb" type of thinking.  And no, I don't have reading issues; in point of fact, I have better reading and writing comprehension than about 80-90% of Americans.  I'm just used to seeing the language typed/written correctly (case in point: I refuse to acknowledge emails, text messages, and other digital forms of messaging that used leet-speak or textese).

 

Jeske: fair enough. 

If you will only deal with people that write/speak perfect english, I'm guessing your world is very small and you are missing alot. Get out more.

If your reading and writing comprehension is so extraordianary you should have had no problem understanding what jeske said.

Compairing someone speaking/writing in a second language to mixing inches, feet, meters on a blueprint is absurd.

 

1. I said nothing about speech, just writing.  What that means is that the people I choose to associate with are intelligent and not lazy when it comes to typing.  So your guess is wrong. . . and good job on going the whole "personal attack" route.

 

2. Go back and read my initial response to jeske's post.  Yeah, that's right, I did understand what he said.  It was difficult to read, not impossible.

 

3. That's a matter of opinion.  I thought my analogy, while not perfect, was sufficient for the situation.

 

 

Now that we have the tit for tat out of the way, can we back to talking about Chosen?  Or should we just wait for a mod to hammer the lid shut on this one?

[*Furyou Miko]

Arbaal the Undeafeted, I Choose You!

 

da yo..?

[Iron_Within]

So this last page has nothing relevant on close combat..shame

[Trevak Dal]

As I've said before, I like Chosen-mostly because I don't like Terminators all that much *GASP!!!!!*

 

Not really a fan of the models, and when I started out with my Chaos-I wanted an all power armored army.  No Daemons, no Daemon Princes, no nothing.  I was inspired by Mr. Dembski-Boden's Night Lords books about the desperate struggle to survive being hunted-and Gears of War 3's "Brothers to the End" trailer was out and was very inspiring.

 

And space marines riding bikes (let alone wolves or daemonic machine constructs) is still kind of stupid to me in a conceptual way, but they're so good I got 6 total (4 man squad with plasma guns), though I've found I'm quite fond of Dark Angel robes when I imagine them as camo cloaks.

 

I digress.  I like chosen because they feel so much more customizable than Terminators.  I generally get 2 turns of shooting out of my Chosen (sometimes more), and that Hidden Fist really ruins some people's day-I see why Grey Hunters and Wolfguard are so very popular.  When Adrastus (The Champion) is locked in a Challenge, the unit still has a chance of coming through and winning.

 

I run an 8 man squad with 2 plasma guns or 2 melta guns or 2 combi weapons and a Hidden Fist(got the gun bit pinned so I can swap it out-not as precise as magnetization but effective).

 

They are primarily a nastier unit of CSMs that a HQ can roll with in one of my Rhinos.  I usually reserve them, and I like to run them along side *GASP* Warp Talons.

 

I love how you can customize them.  Yeah yeah, terminators do it better.  I don't know, I like playing with MY chosen.  Subjectively they feel more personal than just dropping down termicide or something.

[derpasaurus]

I love my chosen, an I like to attach Huron to them and infiltrate. :D
I don't use Warp Talons myself, tho I have considered proxying my Raptors (!) as them just to try them out. The problem I have with them is they don't even have grenades. I can forgive no "vanguard assault" type rules so if you deepstrike by threading the needle and don't get yourself killed by mishaps or a turn of CRAAAZY return fire, they will murder some faces, for sure. The problem I have is if you assault thru any type of cover at all you have 30 point models going last. And therefore probably dying. I have seen them absolutely butcher entire blobs of Ork Boyz tho... 

[chillin]

Yes trevak and derp, I also suggested that chosen, w a good mix of spec shooting and hth weapons, could be used without the sky falling down, evidently we are all WRONG.

[Azekai]

You aren't wrong, per se, you are just using your points inefficiently. Which is fine- do whatever you want, but it can't be claimed as a good strategic choice; it's suboptimal. 

 

Edit: By the way, where did Zhukov go? He was a solid, lucid competitive-list building chap.

[Emperors Immortals]

You aren't wrong, per se, you are just using your points inefficiently. Which is fine- do whatever you want, but it can't be claimed as a good strategic choice; it's suboptimal. 

 

Edit: By the way, where did Zhukov go? He was a solid, lucid competitive-list building chap.

I was looking forward to his codex breakdown at around this time, so im hoping hes coming back soon.

 

Also Miko, well done +1 lulz. :)

[Hellios]

Yes trevak and derp, I also suggested that chosen, w a good mix of spec shooting and hth weapons, could be used without the sky falling down, evidently we are all WRONG.

 

Liking something more doesn't make them better. 

 

Terminators are better than chosen, but chillin prefers chosen to terminators.

 

Also there are matters such as play style and local meta. Even if they are the same the difference between terminators and chosen isn't so huge that you have crippled yourself.

 

I don't run chosen or terminators in my CSM army. I don't care which one is better (if one is better than the other), sometimes having fun is acceptable.

[chillin]

Actually I dont prefer chosen to termi's, I think the DS'ing and termi's having only 1 shot spec weapons, 2+/5+, etc means that you have to use the 2 units in different ways. I take termis more then chosen actually (if I take any elites at all).  I was just telling to OP that chosen could be a hard hitting unit, and that he could give chosen a try, with out the sky falling down or him auto loosing.  I and others gave some advice as to how we have used chosen w some sucess, which was the point of the tread. Some people might want to read the OP ! 6 people repeating that chosen suck , termi's,  SW's, necrons, spawn, drakes,  dark eldar, s/m squad X,  chaos dwarves, etc, are all better really isnt helpful nor the question the OP ask..

[chillin]

You aren't wrong, per se, you are just using your points inefficiently. Which is fine- do whatever you want, but it can't be claimed as a good strategic choice; it's suboptimal. 

 

Edit: By the way, where did Zhukov go? He was a solid, lucid competitive-list building chap.

Oh no, I was told I was WRONG ! For suggesting that chosen could be used at all, did I ever say the were optimal ? No. But they have enough hitting power that I told  the OP that he  could try them a few times and come to his own conclusion as to whether he wanted to keep using them or not.

It's very easy to say  , make a list that looks exactly like mine, and use only what I use or you are wrong, and dont know what your doing. Which I find as funny as I do annoying, as I've been playing this game for almost 20 years, I dont know how many tourneys, and won hundreds of games, and sometime with (gasp) , units that werent the flavor of the month, in my army.

I think Zhukov took a break bc he was tired of some of the bull:cuss. And yes, his advice was always solid and worth considering.

[the jeske]

But the win ratio would be higher if you used the best units , specialy If you get to test them before others saw a new dex [and the dex wouldnt be a it works like X , only with less Y] .

2x5 plasmas cost a lot cash . time spent on testing chosen is what 2-3 games per gold fish army times SW, necron , chaos[checking mirror matchs] , 2-3 ally builds and something less common like demons or nids . that could be one month of game time down the drain , if you happen to find out that chosen arent optimal for you in the end . It is safer to let someone play an optimal build , even a gold fish one ,against which everyone with xp knows how to play against , then have a mix of "experimental" and "look cool" units that will make a bad army and wont teach the person using them a thing . well save for the X units are bad , but even that aint sure the new guy may always end up thinking that the whole codex is just bad and switch and start another cool/experimiental army and we know what happens then.

[*Furyou Miko]

You say that, but I direct you to my win loss ratio (now updated for the first time in months!) in my sig. :p

[Dam13n]

I still rate Chosen, but used a special weapon toting "first-blood getters"

 

Typically I'll run:

 

Huron (Warlord)

 

5 Chosen with Flamers

- Rhino

 

5 Chosen with Meltaguns

- Rhino

 

I get to infiltrate both units in their rhinos (Huron, can join the Flamer unit to add his Heavy Flamer or sit back with my gunline, as needed)

 

If I get 1st turn, then I've never failed to get 1st Blood with one or the other. True, one of them invariably dies in return, but I can live with that. Going second I can instead choose to outflank both units thus threaten their back lines from turn 2, meaning my opponent either sacrifices his "artillery etc" and pushes forwards, or leaves units to protect his long ranged units thus blunting his attack on my Gunline. Of course I could mix and match as needed (which I would have to do if I roll a 1-2 on my "number of infiltrators" roll)

 

Now, they don't score in any mission, which does prevent them holding objectives, but they can still deny them if needed. Now, as I use them as essentially sacrificial units, I don't really want them scoring, as giving easy victory points to the enemy is never a good idea.

 

They can even be useful in the relic scenario as blocking units or used to take out the unit my opponent is likely to try and grab the relic with. They may not be able to take it themselves, but they can buy time for one of my Plague Marine of CSM units to bag the prize and make a dignified escape back to my lines.

 

The problem is that people seem to see the 2A on their stat line and think they're assault units, they aren't and will never be. But that isn't to say they're useless, especially considering the competition in the elites section is fairly thin, with only Terminators really offering an alternative. (Mutilators, Possessed and Helbrutes don't really compete, and I will only take cult squads as troops.)

 

My other units (@2000pts) typically are:

 

Nurgle Lord in TA with Burning Brand

 

2 units of PM each with 2 Plasma

 

2 units of CSM each with Flamer, Autocannon and IoV

 

Vindicator

 

Predator Destructor

 

Auto-Las Predator

 

3 Obliterators with MoN

 

Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun

 

(I do double detachment as you may have guessed, but can easily drop a Predator and make a few adjustments to hit 1850 with no real issues)

 

Finally (just to annoy jeske if nothing else) I've yet to even draw let alone lose since the start of 6th edition, and I really couldn't care less about double drakes and all that cheese-spam, because my list works for me. End of Story! :P

[the jeske]

arent most imperial armies runing rune priests as ally in 2k or more ? that is one big anti infiltration bubble .also how do you get first blood every time .5 meltas wont kill a meq unit [even a 5 man da las minimax] and 5 flamers wont kill an IG blob , you will just clear some dudes at the front . even going after IG car parks isnt so awesome with 5 meltas because A there will be a bubble wrap in front of it [so only str 8 vs av14-13] B there will be cover saves . Do a lot of your opponents play rhino class models  ?

 

 

Finally (just to annoy jeske if nothing else) I've yet to even draw let
alone lose since the start of 6th edition, and I really couldn't care
less about double drakes and all that cheese-spam, because my list works
for me

at 2k points its is either going to be triple drakes +demon MC or IG with valks . a pure slogger army like yours will be losing 2-3 units per  flyer run .I see nothing annoying in your list . now if you played a 200zombi/culists 2tyfus build , now yeah that would be annoying , because it movment turn alone can take around 45 min , if someone is checking range to stuff. 

ah and by the way you are spaming too[pms , csm ]

[crucial]

Chosen sadly seem slightly overcosted this edition which is a shame as I was excited by the potential Abaddon/Chosen list in the new dex. I find they make an ideal swap-in for my khorne berserkers (in a land raider with Khârn) due to their hidden fists. However this is probably due to my regular deathwing opponents...

Finally (just to annoy jeske if nothing else) I've yet to even draw let alone lose since the start of 6th edition, and I really couldn't care less about double drakes and all that cheese-spam, because my list works for me. End of Story!

I lol'ed!!

Jeskes poor grammer and 2 dimensional take on the game really make me chuckle sometimes!

[Trevak Dal]

Hellios, on 16 Mar 2013 - 03:05, said:

 

chillin, on 15 Mar 2013 - 14:31, said:

Yes trevak and derp, I also suggested that chosen, w a good mix of spec shooting and hth weapons, could be used without the sky falling down, evidently we are all WRONG.

Liking something more doesn't make them better.

 

Terminators are better than chosen, but chillin prefers chosen to terminators.

 

Also there are matters such as play style and local meta. Even if they are the same the difference between terminators and chosen isn't so huge that you have crippled yourself.

 

I don't run chosen or terminators in my CSM army. I don't care which one is better (if one is better than the other), sometimes having fun is acceptable.

Well said.

 

Regarding Warp Talons and Assault Grenades in general-I move mine up (thankfully you don't have to have them in reserve) and try to stick near the chosen's rhino.

 

I'm blessed by a really understanding and cool group of folks to play with. It hasn't always been that way-but I've mellowed, and so have they. We use "House/Club" ruling in that any unit that is at least hit by a 'shot' assault grenade, that any unit assaulting the hit unit counts as having Assault Grenades.

 

The idea being it's 'cinematic',

 

The chosen overlooking the Loyalist scum cowering in a ruined farm house, and proceed to suppress them with bolter fire as they advance. Adrastus locks his bolter to his right leg, pulling a frag grenade from his belt and letting fly. The loyalists duck as the grenade lands amongst them, detonating in a flash of fire and shrapnel-though their holy armor saved them. The Sargent was the first to recover as a shadow descended upon them, shattering through the roof as a curse of hatred spat from his lips as he drew his power sword.

 

The Warp Talon champion sheered the sargent's arms from his body before dicing the Loyalists' head by bringing his claws together as if he were in some parody of applause.

 

The other Warp Talons descended upon their foes, spitting them with their claws, carrying them up into the air and diving with them against the small farm house's roof.

 

Adrastus smiled inside his enclosed helmet, "Target neutralized-advancing!" he said over the vox as the Warp Talons leathery wings drew them back into the sky.

 

 

My meh attempt at fan-fiction aside, we all play a lot of console First Person Shooters, specifically Call of Duty and Halo and (naturally) Warhammer 40k Space Marine. One guy not having grenades isn't somehow unable to capitalize on a team-mate's grenade or flash bang. And given all the "Cinematic" rules they have, the assault grenade rules were kind of blocky and dumb, so we edited it.

[derpasaurus]

Eh, sure Jeske's "sub-optimal units are poor and should never ever be taken because they're not the best thing ever and god forbid you build the list you want to build" mentality is grating, IMHO, but english is not his native language. I couldn't probably even properly spell the whole 5 or 6 words I know in russian, so I don't fault him for that. 

I don't know, I still can't see how chosen are not a close combat unit... sure they make fantastic plasma delivery, holy crap, but any unit that gets 4 attacks per model on a charge sounds like a pretty solid close combat unit to me. Sure they only have a 3+ save, but if even 4 models make it to combat, something's gonna have to deal with 16+ attacks. There's not much else that can do that. When you compare them to terminators they're a little more expensive, (after adding a pw) and more fragile, but yeah, to make up for the fragility you get MORE of them. Also the naked model is 18. If you give a regular marine a 2nd ccw he's 15 and still only has 1 attack base. The weapons cost the same and you can take more special weapons, and unlike terminators they can be fired more than once. get some nice assault weapons like the melta/flamer idea, maybe a hidden fist or whatever, and you have a pretty solid force to deal with, while not as sturdy as terminators.

I can totally understand the desire to make them ranged, as I said, multiple plasma in a squad of chosen will make almost anything sweat. But I just can't write them off as a melee unit, either, and I primarily use mine in such a role. They generally preform very well for me, as well. My list is far from "competitive" anyway, it's more a fun fluff list that I tweak here and there to try and get more competitive while still keeping the feel I want from my army. (hence my recent ideas to eventually add bikes and cultists, which probably means I'll be fielding my chosen less.) People have personal tastes and lists evolve. That's just how the game is, and it's great for it. If everyone played terminators all the time I'd probably stop playing, because where's the variety in that? BA termines, GK termies, DA termies, Chaos termies, all 2+5++ base, no fun to play against consistently. I thank the dark gods that there are OPTIONS.

[minigun762]

As a warning, don't make disagreements into personal attacks. There has been a few borderline comments made and it needs to stop.

 

We all play the game for various reasons, so respect that others have different priorities.

 

Thanks.

[Dam13n]

There was no "personal attack" intended by me, it was just a tongue-in-cheek comment. I actually tend to agree with Jeske on a lot of the points he makes, I just prefer to approach army selection from my own perspective.

 

- Jeske - I often get first blood by nuking a vehicle with the Meltas or taking out a small unit with the Flamers. It's all about careful placement and picking my targets well.

 

I agree, the Rune Priest "Chooser-bubble" is something to worry about, but I could just switch to outflanking if that's likely to prove a problem.

 

At the end of the day, my list suits my local meta and my play style. Would I switch in a drake or two if the meta changed and my list started suffering? Of course I would. I dislike losing, but not so much as to be graceless in defeat. It's a constant learning curve and my lists evolve regularly when I encounter something new.

 

I don't consider 2 PM squads and 2 CSM squads "spamming", they are my troops choices, and they're the best ones IMHO. The Cheese-Spam comment referred to the entire army of spam that is often advocated in these forums. Plus, I never said that I completely ignore competitive choices when it comes to army selection.

 

Derpasaurus - I do see the point, and 9 chosen with MoK, Banner of Wrath and led by Khârn in a Raider would be a decent assault unit deathstar. The problem is that many who would take them with this purpose in mind will splash out on power weapons, and they'll get very expensive, quickly.

 

With this in mind, I would be tempted to give said unit 3-5 Flamers. Given the recent FAQ rule they couldn't kill anyone outside the range of the Flamers with the Flamers themselves and a ~8" charge with the re-roll from the banner is very do-able.

[Trevak Dal]

Chosen basically have 3 attacks base (2 + 1 for being double armed).  That's last-codex Khorne Beserker levels.  Terminators only have 2 attacks-plainly Chosen are indeed a close combat option, but I think they'd fare better with just 'power weapons' instead of specialist stuff like Fists and Claws because with Claws and FIsts you have to spend more points base to get in more attacks (either buying another fist or claw).

 

You're still essentially spending 75 extra points if you go the power weapon route, but with the options available (Spear, Axe, sword, Maul) you can have 5 out of 10 guys that can deny armor on anything they come into contact with-with 3 attacks base.  Give em the Mark of Khorne and that's 5 on the charge. 

 

I don't really do Math hammer-I dropped out of statistics class the first time in College because I had an old-fart "I'm tenured and Back in my day we used an abacus and a slide rule to do everything and I don't care about doing this in Excell because Statistics are important and you need to take it seriously" guy, and while I find that hen scratch just fascinating, as Han Solo said, "Never tell me the odds."  I regularly have Firewarriors win in close combat.

 

[Dam13n]

Trevak - Khârn plus Chosen Champion with Lance and 8 Chosen with 3 Flamers in a Land Raider will murder most units (models with a 3++ will prove a problem as they'll blunt Khârn somewhat) if you do the math(ammer).

 

Working it out vs a 10 man Tactical Squad yesterday, (assuming both squads at full strength at the start of combat, which thanks to the flamers the tactical squad shouldn't be :P and that you're charging out of a Raider with a Dirge Caster - so no overwatch) - Khârn and co. will kill 11.44 marines (including a challenge with the champion vs the sergeant). If you positioned carefully so there was no challenge (no characters in base to base at the start of combat) then you'll likely kill more! (not that you can, because you're wiping them out anyway :P )

 

The big problem is getting the unit there, and the unit surviving the return fire from the rest of his army once combat is over.

 

If I were facing such a unit, I would sacrifice my melta-chosen to kill the raider (and maybe my flamer chosen as well to thin the unit out) thus eliminating your deathstar, and allowing the rest of my army to whittle you down at range.

 

It's all tactics at the end of the day (with a fair amount of luck of course :) )