Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Yes, I do realise this is gonna come down to a lot of 'my man is better than your man'm squabbling but still. I was gonna post this on the Primarch vs Primarch topic but I though it was a better idea to start a new one. So, yeah, which non primarch would we like to read or read in more detail? Mine are... Raldoran vs Sigismund Ahriman vs Khârn Sevatar vs Abadon Cerberus Loken vs Little Horus and Constantin Valdor vs Lucius Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 We probably never see those match ups but here's my take: Raldoron vs Sigismund : Sigismund Ahriman vs Khârn : Khârn Sevatar vs Abadon : Tie Loken vs lil Horus : Tie Valdor vs Lucius : Valdor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 We probably never see those match ups but here's my take: Raldoron vs Sigismund : Sigismund Ahriman vs Khârn : Khârn Sevatar vs Abadon : Tie Loken vs lil Horus : Tie Valdor vs Lucius : Valdor I realise most will never happen but that's part of the appeal of the topic. I agree with you on most, however, without the Khornate resistance to magic I'm not too sure Khârn would be so sucessful. Also... where exactly is Valdor!? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326453 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 I'd go for Lucius vs Sigmund or Shadowkynn vs Khârn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Lucius vs Lucius. The only fight Lucius would be able to win in the HH series ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326467 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodian Athiair Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Lucius vs Lucius. The only fight Lucius would be able to win in the HH series ! Oooohhhh BURN! Yeh he thinks he's an amazing duelist yet never seems to win during any one-on-one fights. Personally Raldoron vs Bjorn Valdor vs Argel Tal I'm sure there's others but meh Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Oooohhhh BURN! Yeh he thinks he's an amazing duelist yet never seems to win during any one-on-one fights. He's yet to be bested by superior swordsmanship(if there is except Primarchs) though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Lucius vs Argel Tal. The problem with Lucius is he assumes everyones gonna play by his rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326501 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Oooohhhh BURN! Yeh he thinks he's an amazing duelist yet never seems to win during any one-on-one fights. He's yet to be bested by superior swordsmanship(if there is except Primarchs) though. Earlier fluff got him undefeated until his post-heresy death at the hands of another Lord Commander of the Emperor Children. The HH series kinda ruined him when he could've been a great character. He's the greatest duellist of the legions. Yet every random guy beats/kills him with ease. He sucks because he's just a "Pride is bad, m'kay" character, used to make poorly written loyalists look good. Nobody could understand why he is prideful if he keeps being defeated. Nobody can understand why he never changes, being defeated time and time again. Ergo, poor writing skills makes poorly written characters. Ergo, they should kill him once and for all, because he's such an awfully ridiculous character. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Oooohhhh BURN! Yeh he thinks he's an amazing duelist yet never seems to win during any one-on-one fights. He's yet to be bested by superior swordsmanship(if there is except Primarchs) though. Earlier fluff got him undefeated until his post-heresy death at the hands of another Lord Commander of the Emperor Children. The HH series kinda ruined him when he could've been a great character. He's the greatest duellist of the legions. Yet every random guy beats/kills him with ease. He suck because he's just a "Pride is bad, m'kay" character, used to make poorly written loyalists to look good. Nobody could understand why he is prideful if he keeps being defeated. Nobody can understand why he never changes, being defeated time and time again. Ergo, poor writing skills makes poorly written characters. Ergo, they should kill him once and for all, because he's such an awfully ridiculous character. I don't know man, I agree he his his issues but as I recall he's been beaten twice... maybe three times? now. Loken who, dispite being a reletivly new character at that point, is fairly badass in his own right and Tavitz at Isstvan 3 though thats more of a draw and thats only cause, atleast as i read it, cause Saul is fuelled by rage that Lucius has just killed all those loyalists. Reflection Crak'd reendeered him to me personally I mean he cuts down four Phoenix guard with out breaking a sweat and there's that moment of introspection where he notices a flaw in Fulgrims fighting style. Considering most astartes think that they could barely last a few moments against a primarch Lucius is cocksure enought to think he can. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Oh yeah, he's quite bossy when it comes to make his legion look bad. His embarassing fighting skills are part of that talent of his. Just kill him already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshal seanisi Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 My attempt at the spoiler tag didn't work so beware!!! Also if someone can give me spoiler 101 I would be grateful. I think what the have done with Lucius has humbled the character a bit. I think the opposite could be said about Khârn however after reading Betrayer. One thing ADB did in the book however is give you an idea of the balance of how good the abilities are of Captains in other legions. when the Ultra Marine Captain slices thru the traitors with ease and makes a path to Khârn and issues a challenge. And is holding his own with Khârn until Angron gets involved. . Now the only Character that I can think of that every Author has gone out of their way to say is all but unmatched is Sigisimund. This all the authors seem to agree on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Maybe he'll get the Lucius treatment. At Terra, when he was supposed to beat some traitor champions, he'll get curbstomped by every random traitor. Unlikely though, as he is a loyalist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326597 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 My attempt at the spoiler tag didn't work so beware!!! Also if someone can give me spoiler 101 I would be grateful. I think what the have done with Lucius has humbled the character a bit. I think the opposite could be said about Khârn however after reading Betrayer. One thing ADB did in the book however is give you an idea of the balance of how good the abilities are of Captains in other legions. Spoiler when the Ultra Marine Captain slices thru the traitors with ease and makes a path to Khârn and issues a challenge. And is holding his own with Khârn until Angron gets involved. Spoiler. Now the only Character that I can think of that every Author has gone out of their way to say is all but unmatched is Sigisimund. This all the authors seem to agree on. If you highlight the text you want to spoiler then click the button third in besides your profile picture above underline if brings up a box where you can select coding and spolier is in the drop down menu. I just think Lucius is supremely cocky and that does come off in his written form, especially in his introspections, he may not be the best swordsman but HE definitely thinks he is. I'm not sure Sigismund is definitely one of the highest ranked astartes but he's not the only one. The Dark Angel captain, who's name escapes me, gives a sort of list of the top ranked fighter's in the imperium innnn that story where the Lion and Cruze fight for the first time sorry my memory is awful tonight. He says something along the lines of 'there were few who could match Sevatar in battle; Abbadon was one, Sigismund (those are the two I remember) but I think he says Khârn, Amit and Lucius too. I'll try to find the quote. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Lucius does get put down a lot, but only in the way everyone should be expecting a duellist to be put down in mass warfare. When he's actually being a duellist, he seems to always win. When the element of war gets added in, he's no different than any other Emperor's Children. That should be expected, though. Lucius prides himself on his ability to stack himself up against anyone else and come up on top, not on his ability to be stacked against the entire enemy army while operating as a functional piece of the whole. The Horus Heresy has shown that while he may be good at the former, he's sub-par at the latter. On the flip-side, that loyalist Emperor's Children whose name I can never remember because Vesper was right on them being poorly written is the reverse. Not an exceptional duellist but downright awesome at being a cog. So pit Lucius against any one Champion, and he more than likely will walk out of it, scarred head held imperiously high. Pit him and his company against any Champion and their company and we won't be seeing a very victorious Lucius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Maybe he'll get the Lucius treatment. At Terra, when he was supposed to beat some traitor champions, he'll get curbstomped by every random traitor. Unlikely though, as he is a loyalist. I don't understand all the Lucius hate. He is awesome. Sure, he has been bested, but everyone one does at some point. According the the old fluff even Khârn dies on Terra. Losing a fight doesn't make you any less badassed. You have to realize that these guys tear through most troops like there are paper. Look at the battles on Istavan. The Traitor Legions ruled!. As for the loyalist winning alot of the fights, think about this, in 40k ONLY the Chaos champions are still around. Losing a fight doesn't mean they are bad. I'd also bring up the book 'Fulgrim', in which pretty much every Iron Hand Captain named in the book gets slaughtered by the EC. Also, with the exception of Alpharius (Which is still debated), more Loyalist Primarchs are known to be dead then Traitor Primarchs. I wouldn't want to face Lucuis or Khârn in a fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 @marshal seanisi 'comparable in skill to First Captain Ezekyle Abaddon, Lord Commander Eidolon and Chapter Master Raldoron' according to Sevatar's Lexicanum page but I'm sure he was compared to Sigismund somewhere there aswell. @Cormac agreed when he is one on one or against small groups he usually wins. Loken picks up on his weakness and Tavitz kind of goes Khârn on him but both acknoledge that in a protracted fight they would probably have been killed by him. That's a point to bring us back to topic. Lucius vs Soloman Demeter without Lucius's dirty trick. Personally Soloman was one of my favourite Emperors Children and while yes he would probably still fall to Lucius it'd be nice to read him getting the chance to fight back properly. Also Typhon vs Garro (I'm hoping against hope that they will add this into the final battle dispite the existing fluff saying Typhon didn't make it to the Imperial Palace) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326630 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 It's not that much about traitors/loyalists. We know how the Heresy ends, traitors get quite mauled and keep losing. I'm more concerned about the case of Lucius. When he got killed by Lord Commander Cyrus, he was known to be quite cocky and prideful. Which made sense as he's never been defeated before Now, he pretty much feels like Wile E. Coyote being unable to shine at something and failing every fight he's involved in. But yeah, he doesn't change at all. The character is stuck in a dead end and they'd be better off killing him for good as there's nothing left about him that could be barely interesting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326631 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshal seanisi Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Maybe he'll get the Lucius treatment. At Terra, when he was supposed to beat some traitor champions, he'll get curbstomped by every random traitor. Unlikely though, as he is a loyalist. I don't understand all the Lucius hate. He is awesome. Sure, he has been bested, but everyone one does at some point. According the the old fluff even Khârn dies on Terra. Losing a fight doesn't make you any less badassed. You have to realize that these guys tear through most troops like there are paper. Look at the battles on Istavan. The Traitor Legions ruled!. As for the loyalist winning alot of the fights, think about this, in 40k ONLY the Chaos champions are still around. Losing a fight doesn't mean they are bad. I'd also bring up the book 'Fulgrim', in which pretty much every Iron Hand Captain named in the book gets slaughtered by the EC. Also, with the exception of Alpharius (Which is still debated), more Loyalist Primarchs are known to be dead then Traitor Primarchs. I wouldn't want to face Lucuis or Khârn in a fight. That changes in Betrayer by ADB> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshal seanisi Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Although I won't go as far as Vespar and say he is a useless character , I will say I'm a bit disappointed in how his character has been written when it has come to actually fighting. He is boosted up; in each book and lauded for his ability then he's beaten in combat. I find it a bit strange but whatever. Lot's of things the have done have been a bit strange LIke when Gulliman is almost killed by a non primarch in Know no fear than holdshis own against two primarchs in Betrayer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 To be fair Gulliman is spaced without a helmet then. It isn't that anyone is nearly killing him more that he's suffocating. I agree he hasn't had the best protrayal but consider how much exposiure he's had in the series. Who else has equalled him in page time? Loken (lost and went a little mad) Torgaddon (killed?) Little Horus (is having nightmares about Loken coming for him.) Tavitz (killed) Vipus (killed) maybe Khârn but (I've not read Betrayer so I can't comment there BUT he does almost have his guard broken by Argel Tal because of the butchers nails) so really the only characters with around equal exposiure who haven't lost in one way or another are Abbadon and Garro as far as I can see. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326639 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 The RG dude who kills Lucius and is MacGyver at the same time. EDIT : Although I won't go as far as Vespar and say he is a useless character He's pretty useful when an author wants to make a loyalist look awesome. He's just a bad character. No more, no less. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lividjoker Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Sevatar VS anyone will mostly come out with Sevatar winning. In Prince of Crows Pg 331, states that he duelled with Sigismund for 30hrs to a deadlock- the only person to do so in a hundred years of warfare- until he head butted Sigismund ending the duel. Out of a honourable contest of blades Sevatar would've been able to perhaps kill Sigismund. So I'd very much like to see them encounter of the field of battle. Jubal Khan vs Raldoran would be nice as well. Marius Gage vs Erebus for kicks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 12, 2013 Author Share Posted March 12, 2013 Ahh I'd forgotten about the arch traitor. How about Sigismund or Valdor vs Erebus and Kor Phenon however you spell it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3326670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Keyaetus Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 I think Abaddon would take out Sevetar without too much hassle. Infact I think he is the best out of the first captains. After all, he's the first captain of the best legion out there! (Horus' supposed clone to eh..? ;) ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/#findComment-3327004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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