SirAstartes Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I want to see Sigismund vs Khârn, hopefully when Terra comes I will get it It's a possibility. Sigmund was suppose to have killed several champions during the siege and the old fluff had Khârn dying there. Well if anyone is going to down Khârn then I can see no-one else doing but Sigismund, if it does come to pass then I hope they make is mind blowing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3329006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 I want to see Sigismund vs Khârn, hopefully when Terra comes I will get it It's a possibility. Sigmund was suppose to have killed several champions during the siege and the old fluff had Khârn dying there. Well if anyone is going to down Khârn then I can see no-one else doing but Sigismund, if it does come to pass then I hope they make is mind blowing. I agree. Having Khârn fall after a intense fight and the surrounding World eaters actually back away from Sigmund would be awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3329028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 16, 2013 Author Share Posted March 16, 2013 Don't think he'd last ten seconds against any of the First Captains/Legendar Heroes. Think about what he's up against: Forrix kills titans with his fists, Sevatar is so fast other space marines look almost like they're moving in slow mo (plus he surfed a bomber), Ahriman's spellcasting doesn't even need a description, Sigismund....just Sigismund. Created the angriest chapter in existence. Have you read Iron Within Brother? He takes appart three Son's of Horus including, I think, a company captain while everyone just watches. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3329038 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 Don't think he'd last ten seconds against any of the First Captains/Legendar Heroes. Think about what he's up against: Forrix kills titans with his fists, Sevatar is so fast other space marines look almost like they're moving in slow mo (plus he surfed a bomber), Ahriman's spellcasting doesn't even need a description, Sigismund....just Sigismund. Created the angriest chapter in existence. Have you read Iron Within Brother? He takes appart three Son's of Horus including, I think, a company captain while everyone just watches. Yes, I have. As much as he is a skilled fighter, you have to remember...Forrix killed a titan, by punching it to death. Ahriman is (admittedly in the 41st millenium) looking to become ascend to godhood. As impressive as Tauro was, he was one of the warrior elite of his chapter. If you looked to the honour guard/champions in the other legions, and wrote books from their perspective, they'd do the same thing. There are just a few things to take into account: The legendary heroes of the Great Crusade, are legendary for a reason. Of the several million space marines and custodes around at that time, these warriors distinguished themselves to the point where their names were spoken of with awe in other legions, and are notable for reasons other than being honour guards with a first person view in one of the books. The second is that the Ultramarines, as a Legion, were not known for individual prowess. Because compared to many other legions, they were not exceptional in that concern. They were successful because they had arguably the best command structure of any legion (either them, or the Luna Wolves), they were tactically somewhat more flexible than most other legions and because they were big. To become reknown amongst legions that thrive on individual skill (I.e. Lucius, or Sigismund etc.) is a much greater accomplishment. Either way, he was quite a skilled fighter, but that was because he was an honour, whatever title they choose to use. That does not put him in the same league as fighters such as Sevatar and Valdor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3329452 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I want to read about Corswain fighting anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Even his bad morning hair? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330124 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Malcador vs somebody (Erebus or Kor Phaeron would be great) I want to see his fighting skills. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 I want to see his fighting skills. I realise this is off my own topic but I'd love to see Malcador phycicly slap Lorgar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 ^ Hey what about Malcador vs Magnus? It can happen :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Custodians are superior to Astartes? Sgt. Tagore of the World Eaters from Outcast Dead, disagrees! "Rip out your spine! What I say I will kill, I KILL!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330421 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 World Eaters are superior to Custodians. Well known fact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330440 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Custodians are superior to Astartes? Sgt. Tagore of the World Eaters from Outcast Dead, disagrees! "Rip out your spine! What I say I will kill, I KILL!" I won't even rationalize that stuff. It's plain terrible potrayal of Custodians. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330532 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Compromise? What if we agree that the average Custodian plays at the same level as an Astartes Captain or Company Champion, (Nicodemus slicing up three Sons of Horus in Iron Within, Sevatar going through Dark Angels like a hot knife through butter in Prince of Crows, Lucius and Solomon Demeter taking down 20-30 EC line troopers in Galaxy in Flames/Fulgrim). As for Outcast Dead, that Custodian did have some sort of nerve damage from a Bio weapon, and the World Eaters were queuing up for the Nails for more reasons than "Wouldn't it be awesome if we were all as insane as Dad?". There are benefits to go with the drawbacks. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Custodians are superior to Astartes? Sgt. Tagore of the World Eaters from Outcast Dead, disagrees! "Rip out your spine! What I say I will kill, I KILL!" That was a particularly silly novel...either way...Vendatha, remember Vendatha! Compromise? What if we agree that the average Custodian plays at the same level as an Astartes Captain or Company Champion, (Nicodemus slicing up three Sons of Horus in Iron Within, Sevatar going through Dark Angels like a hot knife through butter in Prince of Crows, Lucius and Solomon Demeter taking down 20-30 EC line troopers in Galaxy in Flames/Fulgrim). As for Outcast Dead, that Custodian did have some sort of nerve damage from a Bio weapon, and the World Eaters were queuing up for the Nails for more reasons than "Wouldn't it be awesome if we were all as insane as Dad?". There are benefits to go with the drawbacks. Sounds good :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 In Garro audiobook he thinks that Custodes are one level up IIRC... I think they are better warriors, but soldiers; not so much.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330666 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 19, 2013 Author Share Posted March 19, 2013 Custodians are superior to Astartes? Sgt. Tagore of the World Eaters from Outcast Dead, disagrees! "Rip out your spine! What I say I will kill, I KILL!" That was a particularly silly novel...either way...Vendatha, remember Vendatha Seconded, behind Battle for the Abyss, Outcast Dead is probably my least favourite book there are two main points raised in it both of which could have been done in a novella length story. In Garro audiobook he thinks that Custodes are one level up IIRC... I think they are better warriors, but soldiers; not so much.... Their portrayal in Sword of Truth and Frist Heretic felt less contrite but I agree they are not soldiers but considering theres talk of Valdor holding his own against Horus I think theres enough evidence to say they are better one vs one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 I swear I heard somewhere that Horus was a teen/tween in the sparring session with Valdor but I am unable to pin the source of that down. Anyone else have a clue or is this just my brain misfiring again? As for Outcast Dead, the only issue I had with it was that having Magnus send his warning as Isstvan V was going down played merry hell with the timeline AND made the Crimson King look like a dunderheaded idiot. "Dad, I broke the webway to tell you Horus is a traitor!" "NO (censored), SON!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 I swear I heard somewhere that Horus was a teen/tween in the sparring session with Valdor but I am unable to pin the source of that down. Horus was a full sized, seasoned warrior by the time the emperor found him. If the thing he had done after reuniting had been to duel Valdor, he still wouldn't be a tween. Especially since this would have happened after Russ was found. Either way, I have yet to pin down a source for that one (WH40k wiki is full of :cuss) so take it with a grain of salt. About custodes Solider vs. Warrior, When you embody the extreme concentrated force of a heavily armoured super soldier, it makes much more sense to spread out and fight than to plow in shoulder to shoulder (see: Mobile infantry. ORIGINAL mobile infantry). If you want evidence of them being individually superior to astartes that is not of extremely dubious canonicity, I would look to Amon Tauromachian fighting the three ogryn-ish things barefisted, completely manhandling them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 I want to read about Corswain fighting anything. I agree. So many other Legions have notable Champions. Corswain just doesn't seem up to par with them. he needs a real challenge to bring him up to the other's level. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 The "Warior vs Soldier" thing doesn't mean that Marines fight in a shoulder to shoulder phalanx and Custodes don't. One of the best things to have in a fight is a buddy to watch your back, or better yet, a whole squad of buddies. This is the basis of, oh, just about every infantry doctrine ever. Thing is, Custodes aren't bred or trained as line infantry, they're supposed to be lone operators, which is why en masse a group of Marines trained to operate as one will be superior to a group of Custodians, who are each used to working on their own. And the migou fight you're talking about is in the short story Blood Games, which also contains this: "Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3330741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 oops. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3331355 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 The "Warior vs Soldier" thing doesn't mean that Marines fight in a shoulder to shoulder phalanx and Custodes don't. One of the best things to have in a fight is a buddy to watch your back, or better yet, a whole squad of buddies. This is the basis of, oh, just about every infantry doctrine ever. Thing is, Custodes aren't bred or trained as line infantry, they're supposed to be lone operators, which is why en masse a group of Marines trained to operate as one will be superior to a group of Custodians, who are each used to working on their own. And the migou fight you're talking about is in the short story Blood Games, which also contains this: "Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes". Then Again, in First Heretic we see that average custodes are vastly superior to even possessed marines in combat;. And no, an equal sized group of marines will not beat an equal sized group of custodes. Ever. Between vastly superior gear, better training, better physical bodies and having more experience, they are simply on a different level to space marines. The comparison of a lion to a wolf in First Heretic was an apt one; a lion will beat a wolf ever time, one on one. A lion might kill 2-4 wolves of a pack of 8 or so before going down. If the wolves were not cooperative hunters, it would probably take more of them. But if you bring an entire pride of lions...that's like swatting a fly with a thunder hammer. As to your comment about infantry tactics...you have to realize, custodes and astartes aren't normal infantry. When you are wear armour roughly equivalent to a battle tank, while wielding a spear that has a matter-disrupting blade and that has rapid fire RPG shell with delayed explosives and diamond tips, and are an 8 foot+ super soldier with bulletproof ribs, instant clotting and who can chew through god damn metal, the rules of engagement shift slightly. You are being wasteful, concentrating them on small points. Does an IG infantry squad really need an entire tactical squad to come by and curb stomp them? You can send a lone marine to do that. It is only sensible. Read that Iron Snakes book. Custodes would obviously try and help their fellows as much as is practical, but they are not about to risk themselves for that. Their objective is to keep the emperor safe. Killing his enemies does that. Trying to help a squad mate and ending up with both combatants being pulled out of the fight is not what will keep the emperor safe. They are terrifying defensive murder machines, that astartes would be fools to mess with. Custodes, when operating abroad, fighting like hyperlethal vectors, tearing through the enemy, accomplishing their mission. When defending the emperor, they deploy in overwhelming force and crush everything. They drove back the Legio Mortis in the siege of terra for god's sake. And that doesn't even make sense! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3331478 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 20, 2013 Author Share Posted March 20, 2013 They drove back the Legio Mortis in the siege of terra for god's sake. And that doesn't even make sense! Constantin Valdor vs a Warlord Titan! To be fair you could use jet bikes to board titans with reletive ease I can't recall ever reading anything about titans having much in the way of point defence weapons on their chassis. If I remember rightly in Titanicus one of the boarding tactics used by enemy skitarri squads was using grapple lines to get onto the titans frame since their only infantry defences are their troops on the ground. Unless it's an Imperator which neigh on has a barracks on its back. So really one castodian dropping onto a warlords chassis cutting his was into the princeps compartment and spearing the amniotic tank isn't too far fetched. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3331484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 A group of Marines will never beat a group of Custodes? So what about those Custodians that got wrecked by Magnus's boys in A Thousand Sons and the Survivors had to have their collective hindquarters pulled out of the fire by Leman Russ and the Silent Sisters? Is that also "silly and non canon" like Tagore's fight in Outcast Dead...or the direct quote from Blood Games that says Custodians aren't better than Astartes, heck, even The First Heretic had possessed Argel Tal dumping Aquillon on his backside in the duelling cages. Hardly proof that Custodians are "vastly superior to even possessed Astartes." Have you got any actual evidence...quotes from stories, novels, Codexes, Collected Visions...anything to back your argument up besides stretching ADB's wolves and lions metaphor to ridiculous extremes and ranting that "Custodians are number one! Their weapons are number one! Their minds are number one! Their biceps are number one!" Warp take the actual fluff on the subject? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3331520 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Tetrarch Tauro Nicodemus .vs. Jago Sevatarion Just sounds like an amazing fight, both being bad-asses of their respective Legions. Truth be told, I'd be rooting for Tauro. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/4/#findComment-3331523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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