Deus Imperator Vult Posted March 20, 2013 Author Share Posted March 20, 2013 A group of Marines will never beat a group of Custodes? So what about those Custodians that got wrecked by Magnus's boys in A Thousand Sons and the Survivors had to have their collective hindquarters pulled out of the fire by Leman Russ and the Silent Sisters? Is that also "silly and non canon" like Tagore's fight in Outcast Dead...or the direct quote from Blood Games that says Custodians aren't better than Astartes, heck, even The First Heretic had possessed Argel Tal dumping Aquillon on his backside in the duelling cages. Hardly proof that Custodians are "vastly superior to even possessed Astartes." Have you got any actual evidence...quotes from stories, novels, Codexes, Collected Visions...anything to back your argument up besides stretching ADB's wolves and lions metaphor to ridiculous extremes and ranting that "Custodians are number one! Their weapons are number one! Their minds are number one! Their biceps are number one!" Warp take the actual fluff on the subject? I'm not saying in any way that they are no1 but the evidence is there (Garro vs Korarrin in Sword of Truth, Korarrin vs the traitor astates (yes we know who they are but its easier than putting in a spoiler tag) in Sword of Truth, which ever book that was from that states Valdor fought Horus and wasn't ruined.) the fact is, as with any series with multiple authors, portrayals are inconsistent. Some books have Marine helmets deflecting bolt rounds outright where as in others they punch right through, the Castodians in Outcast Dead do appear weaker, one of Angrons axes is on the Furious Abyss even though he has both with him in Butchers Nails and, as far as I know, in Betrayer, the sizes of the Legions was even revised mid series wasn't it? So even if something is cannon its not entirely cannon since it's the authors perogative to change the material to fit the situations. Like personally I outright ignore Battle for the Abyss when I think of Heresy titles cause it was so awful but it's still more cannon than anything you or I have written so we have to take that into account. Yes the Castodian in Outcast dead is killed with brutal ease but for every example of castodian weakness there is one of strength. It's the same with the Primarchs when I first started reading the books I got the destinct feeling that noone but another Primarch was capable of hurting a Primarch but since then we have had Fulgrim get beat down by his captains, Curze and the Lion (admittedly both injured) dragged away by regular astartes and Magnus take a beating from a wolf lord and bjorn (admitedly post heresy) so what is and isn't fluff is ever changing. Tetrarch Tauro Nicodemus .vs. Jago Sevatarion Just sounds like an amazing fight, both being bad-asses of their respective Legions. Truth be told, I'd be rooting for Tauro. I agree brother, though there are others who have questioned Tauros skills... To be fair as cool as he is I think Sevatar could take him being that he is, arguably, one of the top three marines in the universe with Abbadon and Sigismund. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3331537 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Re: Fulgrim getting beat up by his captains in "The Reflection Crack'd"...I think one could make the arguement that he threw that fight without sounding completely like a crazy person. Haven't kept up with the Garro stuff since "Flight of the Eisenstern" so I can't really comment on any of that, but when Graham McNeil and Dan Abnett both portray Custodians as not being that much more powerful than Astartes that's canon enough for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3331556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plaguecaster Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 After reading both the short story Kyptos as well as Angel Exterminatus I would love seeing more of Wayland, finally a good display of what the Iron Hands should of been portrayed as in the HH not those other disgraces , seeing more of Sharrowkyn fighting someone skilled would be nice as well especially after the major person he killed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3331584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 A group of Marines will never beat a group of Custodes? So what about those Custodians that got wrecked by Magnus's boys in A Thousand Sons and the Survivors had to have their collective hindquarters pulled out of the fire by Leman Russ and the Silent Sisters? Is that also "silly and non canon" like Tagore's fight in Outcast Dead...or the direct quote from Blood Games that says Custodians aren't better than Astartes, heck, even The First Heretic had possessed Argel Tal dumping Aquillon on his backside in the duelling cages. Hardly proof that Custodians are "vastly superior to even possessed Astartes." Have you got any actual evidence...quotes from stories, novels, Codexes, Collected Visions...anything to back your argument up besides stretching ADB's wolves and lions metaphor to ridiculous extremes and ranting that "Custodians are number one! Their weapons are number one! Their minds are number one! Their biceps are number one!" Warp take the actual fluff on the subject? The difference is that "magnus's boys" were sorcerers. Martial skill goes out the window when something there is no defence against is brought into the mix. As for Sgt. Tagore, you yourself brought up the fact that the custodian had had his nerves fried by a bio weapon before the fight. Do you know what else the First Heretic had, other than Argel Tal knocking Aquillon down? It had 11 possessed marines attacking 3 custodians and losing 7 of their number. And these were the big bad "original" possessed. And one was Argel Tal himself, a chapter master. Vendatha cut down a chaplain, a chapter master and a captain, all within three seconds. The third was dead before the first hit the ground. The reason he did also kill the second chaplain and Argel Tal? He stopped to press charges. Otherwise it would have just been him and a Lorgar who refused to fight. A primarch just sitting there, accepting their fate doesn't live long (à la night haunter), so pressing charges may have been literally the biggest mistake, ever. That chapter also has this quote, which may satiate your desire for direct quotes rather than clear examples: "Each suit of battle armour was individually wrought for the Custodian granted the honour of wearing it, and despite their finery, they were a step beyond the mass-produced wargear used by the Astartes Legions." This, right after Vendatha survived 30 bolts to the face. And was still on his feet. And then he survived having a two meter long power sword thrown through his head (as in, flew in through his mouth, exited through his spine), and was conscious to boot! And then that sword was yanked, roughly, out through the hole in entered through. And still he was alive. And conscious. He had skull fractures, fragments of armour embedded in his face, the previously mentioned sword wound and more besides. The astartes were astounded that he was alive after the bolter fusillade, so we can probably assume that roughly where their endurance would take them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3332142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Also, some more choice quotes from The First Heretic: "'Aquillon', said Argel Tal, from his vantange point above the carnage. He shook his head as he spoke the name. Unfettered awe softened his voice." -On first seeing custodes fight "Was it a flaw? Perhaps by the standards of the Astartes, who waged war and lived life with brotherhood etched into their genetic codes." -On realizing custodes don't fight as brothers There was another one; I'll edit this when I find it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3332185 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barakel Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Khârn vs Amit. (The Butcher's Nails vs The Red Thirst) At Terra. Written by A D-B. Please. Would pay money to see this Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3332208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yhta Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 ahriman vs kor phaeron the two use warp powers, just in diferent ways: one realies in his mastery of the warp and the other of the power granted by the dark gods, we already know who powerfull ahriman is and he saw that jor phaeron is nota weaking after make some punchs to guillman, so a magic fight will be awsome Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3332360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Sevatar VS anyone will mostly come out with Sevatar winning. In Prince of Crows Pg 331, states that he duelled with Sigismund for 30hrs to a deadlock- the only person to do so in a hundred years of warfare- until he head butted Sigismund ending the duel. As hard as Sevatar was wanked in Prince of Crows, I don't think he was wanked that hard. He'll have a good chance against most other first captains. Saying he'd likely beat any other first captain is a bit much. "Likely" to me means significantly over 50% chance. I assume that's what you mean by the term. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3335785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lividjoker Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Sevatar VS anyone will mostly come out with Sevatar winning. In Prince of Crows Pg 331, states that he duelled with Sigismund for 30hrs to a deadlock- the only person to do so in a hundred years of warfare- until he head butted Sigismund ending the duel. As hard as Sevatar was wanked in Prince of Crows, I don't think he was wanked that hard. He'll have a good chance against most other first captains. Saying he'd likely beat any other first captain is a bit much. "Likely" to me means significantly over 50% chance. I assume that's what you mean by the term. Aye I give you that. Maybe I didn't explain it enough. In his Duel Vs Sigismund it seems like he wasn't using his power(s). Whereas when he boards the Invincible Reason he'd already used his suppressed power and was then feeling the after affects due to his lack of formal training (I imagine he had little to no training from a Librarian or some such). Thus he fell out of consciousness etc. If he were to fight normally then yeah I'd say he'd beat some but not most First Captains. But if he had more control over his power he'd beast most of them, maybe not Abbadon since he loves his Termie armour too much. But hey we've only had a small chunk of Sevatar fighting. If he'd crossed blades with Corswain we may have seen more to the captain. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3336033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the emperor is scottish Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I would like to read about the fight touched apon in prince of crows where sevetar and sigismund have a dule that lasts for hours and only ends when sevetar head buts sigismund. I don't think abaddon was everything he's cracked up to be. He's just a strong brute in terminator armour. Loken would have had him if abandon wasnt in terminator armoured. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3336168 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Lucian Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I would love to see some more to Corswaine... Really like that guy... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3336334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 I would like to read about the fight touched apon in prince of crows where sevetar and sigismund have a dule that lasts for hours and only ends when sevetar head buts sigismund. I don't think abaddon was everything he's cracked up to be. He's just a strong brute in terminator armour. Loken would have had him if abandon wasnt in terminator armoured. To be fair though, Abaddon was toying with Loken because his terminator armour meant he could afford to. I don't think Abaddon was SO much better than normal, but then again we have no indication that Loken was either, and Abaddon WAS first captain of 100,000 space marines. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3336374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 "Just a strong brute in Terminator armor"...unless you are one of eighteen very special brothers or perhaps a Custodian, that's a sentence no one should ever say. Edit: In the sense that a strong guy in Cataphracti armor will ruin anyone's day, not that Heresy era Captain Ezekyle is necessarily all that and a bag of chips. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3336458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lividjoker Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 "Just a strong brute in Terminator armor"...unless you are one of eighteen very special brothers or perhaps a Custodian, that's a sentence no one should ever say. Edit: In the sense that a strong guy in Cataphracti armor will ruin anyone's day, not that Heresy era Captain Ezekyle is necessarily all that and a bag of chips. It's going to be mostly due to the fact that we all know that Abaddon lives all the way through the heresy, (plot armour ftw!), and does some stuff here and there and ends up as the new Warmaster of Chaos and the chosen of all four Gods. I'd reckon if we were to do this thread again where we didn't know what happened 10k years after the Heresy, I'd wager that many of us would be saying Abaddon would get slapped around a bit. Since his only real major fight currently is against Loken. And as far as Loken goes we cant really compare him to that many other captains/champions in the Legions aside from maybe Tarvitz and Garro. So if we only had that fight to go on Abaddon wouldn't be coming of so well. Maybe we should all pretend that 40k doesn't exist, and that only the Heresy does? Anyhow how about Argel Tal vs Typhon? Maybe Macer Varren Vs Garro because why not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3336490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Andrew Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 My choice fights... Sigismund vs Khârn (Uncontrolled Rage vs Focused Rage) Loken vs either Abbadon or Little Horus Garro vs Typhus Ventanus vs Maloq Kartho (hopefully a truly badass moment for an Ultramarine) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3336526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 You're discussing Abaddon's plot armor in a discussion featuring Gavriel "Cerberus" Loken. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3336562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 1) As for Sgt. Tagore, you yourself brought up the fact that the custodian had had his nerves fried by a bio weapon before the fight. Do you know what else the First Heretic had, other than Argel Tal knocking Aquillon down? 2) It had 11 possessed marines attacking 3 custodians and losing 7 of their number. And these were the big bad "original" possessed. And one was Argel Tal himself, a chapter master. Vendatha cut down a chaplain, a chapter master and a captain, all within three seconds. 1) It's an unarmed, unarmoured WE sergeant defeating a fully armed and armoured Custodian whose reflexive response times have been reduced to a level below the minimm required for front line service It's debatable which side is at more of a disadvantage in this match-up 2) Re-read. They started with 11. Ended with 5. That means they lost 6, not 7 3) Vendatha killed three marines before being shot in the face by a fourth. Keep in mind that some Astartes captains kills over a dozen enemy marines without dying (Remus Ventanus, Sevatar, Lucius, Sigismund, Khârn, Hibou Khan, Sharrowkyn etc.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3336583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueRingedCephalopodofKaos Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Valdor is awesome no doubt there do we actually know how a Castodian matches up to an Astartes physically? I mean I know Garro struggles against that one in Sword of Truth. I agree with you on the contrast between Sevatar vs Lucius. However I think the fight woul be short lived as Lucius' achillies heel is if people don't play by his rules and Sevatar would have no qualms with flicking dirt in his eyes and stabbing him in the crotch. As far as Abadon being the best of all the first captains I'm not sure. I mean the only reason Loken doesn't gut him on Isstvan 3 is cause he's wearing terminator plate where as most of the other first captains don't wear a suit. Sevatar, Sigismund or Raldoran in the same armour would have a fighting chance I'd say. If BL printed your above depiction of Lucius vs Sevatar a few thousand times over ("The Shining" style), bound it, and presented it as part of the HH series, I would buy it. I'd also like to see how Hibou Khan would fare against any of the more high profile "sword dancers" (Sigismund, Lucius, etc.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3475985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Garro vs Typhon Valdor vs Abaddon Erebus vs an entire Contemptor Phalanx - what do you mean, biased? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3476027 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Sigismund vs. any traitor Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3476040 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 How about thirteen of them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3476055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coopervisor Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Amit vs anybody. I want to see what somebody the World Eaters felt the need to call "the flesh tearer" can do against some of the 1st captains (I think he'd rank higher than Raldorian who I see as a better all round general) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3476345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 If BL printed your above depiction of Lucius vs Sevatar a few thousand times over ("The Shining" style), bound it, and presented it as part of the HH series, I would buy it. I'd also like to see how Hibou Khan would fare against any of the more high profile "sword dancers" (Sigismund, Lucius, etc.) Pay me some money brother and I will write the fight for you ;) Rereading this thread I've got a new idea... The Sigilite vs Erebus or Ariman. I mean he is credited as the second most powerful psyker in existance how would he fair against an unreigned traitor pskyer. I'd like to read more of the Khan's men vs maybe some Iron Warriors? I know the battle of Terra has the Khan facing off against Perturabos men but who'd win 1vs1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3482465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Amit vs anybody. I want to see what somebody the World Eaters felt the need to call "the flesh tearer" can do against some of the 1st captains (I think he'd rank higher than Raldorian who I see as a better all round general) Unfortunately, Raldoran (1st Captain) and Azkaellon (founder of the Sanguinary Guard) have no character whatsoever. They read like two no-personality, no-name, vanilla marines Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3482702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper_Hawser Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 Here's one for you: Bjorn vs Corswain Somebody has to restart the old Dark Angel vs Space Wolves feud. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272685-non-primarch-fights-we-would-like-to-read/page/5/#findComment-3484048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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