Non Primarch fights we would like to read.

[W0lfie]

I think id like to see someone else write a bit about Raldaron, I think hes kind of been sold short in this thread on account of james swallow. He was one of the only marines noted as being on par with sigismund, sevatar and abaddon. Swallow just didn't write too much too it. Although he does fight and beat what appeared to be a possessed word bearer captain with the but of his bolter I guess...

This was in a blood angels book however, if I'm am not mistaken.  Grain of salt mandatory.  Similarly to how Guilliman was stated to be one of the most physically powerful and skillful combatants among the primarchs, even though observation would indicate otherwise.  

[W0lfie]

How about Valdor and Sigisumund vs Abaddon and Little Horus?

I don't think that would be much of a fight, abaddon was a skilled warrior, but at the time of the heresy there was nothing to indicate that he was anywhere near as powerful as most of the other first captains, and little Horus we know little enough about.  Sigismund and Valdor on the other hand may be the best Heresy-era fighters barring primarchs and the big E.

 

Greyall, what's all this Valdor hate?

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Right I've just finished Angel Exterminatus and Sharrowkyn! No spoliers or anything but I think he just jumped up on the list of biggest badasses!

 

Sharrowkyn vs Sevatar!!!

[Kol Saresk]

Actually Forgeworld considers Abaddon to be just as highly ranke as Corswain, Sevatar and Sigismund, as he is one of the warriors Sevatar is compared to. However, because the only fight scene we've ever seen him in was the one against Loken, our perception is severely skewed.

[Greyall]

No one survives for 10.000 years in the 40K universe without being majorly badass, at the very least.

 

We just can't go all nitpicky over 'skills'. Lucius is a great swordsman yet Loken beat him. Loken was a fine warrior but Abaddon overpowered him. Sevatar is awesome but is also a psyker with the ability to anticipate his enemies' moves, which ranks right up there in terms of advantages in a duel.

 

Abaddon strikes me as not just being skilled, he's incredibly pragmatic. He has to beat his opponent, pure and simple. He doesn't need to be cruel, doesn't need to prove his superior skills nor try to employ them needlessly against a more skillful opponent for the sake of pride. He uses whatever advantage gives him a faster win: his terminator armour, for example, against Loken, and he was probably as skilled as the loyalist.

[calgar101]

Yeah when ever Abaddon is mentioned he is made out to be an uber bad ass, some one you do not wish to mess with. He fights in his Terminator armour as if it was power armour pretty much.

 

I'd like to see Orfeo against another HH Character perhaps Lucius or Horus Aximand.

[Blindhamster]

I agree, the more Pollux we see the better!

[Vesper]

Abaddon feels like the epitome of badassery.

We know he is the most sucessful of all Luna Wolves / Sons of Horus commanders (except Horus), meaning he's got most sucess in the most sucessful Legion of the Great Crusade.

The guy is also known for leading the armies of the traitors in the Palace. I mean, he's already leading the legions (and even maybe the Primarchs !). We also know he roamed undefeated inside the god damn Palace with the 1st Company of the Sons of Horus, kicking faces all around.

Then, he heads back to the Vengeful Spirit, rips the damn Talon of Horus from Horus' armor and cleans the whole ship of the presence of the loyalists.

That speak volumes about the overall badass level of the guy. Even more so if you consider he's just warming up for the 10k years of constant war he's about to face.

 

I'd like to see Abaddon face Valdor, just for the sake of it.

[Excessus]

Hmm...I was thinking about possible adversaries for Ahriman and co on Terra, but I couldn't come up with any loyalist librarians for that...

 

 

...valdor would be nice as a Thousand Sons adversary though, the revenge of prospero!

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Hmm...I was thinking about possible adversaries for Ahriman and co on Terra, but I couldn't come up with any loyalist librarians for that...

 

 

...valdor would be nice as a Thousand Sons adversary though, the revenge of prospero!

Malcador brother? He is meant to be the second most powerful psyker in existance after the Emperor.

[Kol Saresk]

I think Excessus meant Valdor because Valdor was personally involved with the Razing, not to mention a Custodes has a much better chance of fighting an Astartes than an old man.

[WGXH]

Actually Forgeworld considers Abaddon to be just as highly ranke as Corswain, Sevatar and Sigismund, as he is one of the warriors Sevatar is compared to. However, because the only fight scene we've ever seen him in was the one against Loken, our perception is severely skewed.

 

On that note, I'd like Corswain to show his reputation in person. If Forgeworld hasn't stated he was that highly regarded, I doubt many others would say he was too.

 

I'd like to see Cypher kick some ass, but I fully acknowledge he is better written post Heresy.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

I think Excessus meant Valdor because Valdor was personally involved with the Razing, not to mention a Custodes has a much better chance of fighting an Astartes than an old man.

I was more responding to the lack of loyalist psykers to go against Arhiman and yeah Malcador is an old man but he was powerful enough to run the Astronomicon (albit letting it kill him) for the Emperor that much psycic power loosed in a mind battle on the walls could be interesting. Say if he was fighting with a unit of Fists or Castodians around him for protection. I mean Arhiman kills that Rune priest from across the battlefield at Prospero just by ripping his soul from his body no physical strength required. Other than that Rubio could do it depending on where abouts the Knights Errant will be during the battle... Personally I still want Loken to be one of those teleported aboard the Vengful spirit so he can hunt down Little Horus.

[W0lfie]

No one survives for 10.000 years in the 40K universe without being majorly badass, at the very least.

 

We just can't go all nitpicky over 'skills'. Lucius is a great swordsman yet Loken beat him. Loken was a fine warrior but Abaddon overpowered him. Sevatar is awesome but is also a psyker with the ability to anticipate his enemies' moves, which ranks right up there in terms of advantages in a duel.

 

Abaddon strikes me as not just being skilled, he's incredibly pragmatic. He has to beat his opponent, pure and simple. He doesn't need to be cruel, doesn't need to prove his superior skills nor try to employ them needlessly against a more skillful opponent for the sake of pride. He uses whatever advantage gives him a faster win: his terminator armour, for example, against Loken, and he was probably as skilled as the loyalist.

To be fair, there's a 0% chance Lucius would ever fall for that again.  I have no doubt that if he and Loken fought in an actual combat situation Loken would not be walking away.

 

The reasons I had Sigismund and Valdor as my first choice:

 

the "surviving 10,000 years" thing...Valdor has that going for him too.  And is also augmented beyond astartes-level.  And older/more experienced than any space marine.  And almost certainly has earned more honours.  And is trained for assassination.  

 

Sigismund is so good that he is what other legions' champions are usually compared to (and often, not favourably for them).  The role of champion killer was invented, specifically for him.  One of the main objectives of the battle of the Phall System was to eliminate him.  This is in a legion that has swordsmanship as one of it's specialties, too.

 

It could have happened, too.  There was tension between the Dorn and Valdor at certain points.  The Imperial Fists almost seceeded from the Imperium during the Codex Crisis.

 

So the battle between the Emperor's best against that of the legions.

 

Abaddon is a beast, but I think he would be systematically destroyed by either of these two.  Even on the Tabletop, his Heresy-era rules are kinda meh.

 

Also I don't think Malcador's not being a SM is even relevant, if he wanted he could just use biomancy powers to physically dominate them anyways.  If he was able to power the astronomican for hours, while holding back and saving power to give life to the Emperor?  Not something that would be fun to face on the battle field.

[Kol Saresk]

Wait, Valdor made it to the 41st Millenium?

And while the rules are "meh", it all depends. Sigismund fights by a code. Abaddon and Sevatar don't. Sevatar is actually dangerous because he kept up with Sigismund, but when he started falling behind, he broke the code. Abaddon is the type to never follow the code. Both are dirty fighters. All three are considered premiere warriors and were put into the same list. So as I said, "skewed perception." Like Kaldor Draigo, but opposite.

As for Valdor, assassination probably not. What I mean by that is, being an assassin doesn't necessarily mean Jet Li+Bruce Lee+Steroids. More often than not, it means being able to put a ratchet into a tie so it can only tighten and strangles the wearer while you're sitting comfortably at home on another continent. However, being a Custodes and having to follow the Emperor through who knows kind of battlefields and having to be able to survive more than the Astartes can, that will give you a definite boost. But that boost can only go so far.

As for Malcador, yes he could definitely use his psychic powers. However, using powers drain the user. Malcador is old. Chances are, he won't be able to put out for as long as Arhiman, Prayto or Rubio. What he does put out will be spectacular, for sure. Personal opinion is that unless he's able to do very big and faster than his opponent, he won't be in too many fights.

Personal opinion of course.

[depthcharge12]

Thanks Kol

Now I want to see Valdor assassinate Sevatar and go: "WAAATWW!!!"

[Deus Imperator Vult]

 

No one survives for 10.000 years in the 40K universe without being majorly badass, at the very least.

 

We just can't go all nitpicky over 'skills'. Lucius is a great swordsman yet Loken beat him. Loken was a fine warrior but Abaddon overpowered him. Sevatar is awesome but is also a psyker with the ability to anticipate his enemies' moves, which ranks right up there in terms of advantages in a duel.

 

Abaddon strikes me as not just being skilled, he's incredibly pragmatic. He has to beat his opponent, pure and simple. He doesn't need to be cruel, doesn't need to prove his superior skills nor try to employ them needlessly against a more skillful opponent for the sake of pride. He uses whatever advantage gives him a faster win: his terminator armour, for example, against Loken, and he was probably as skilled as the loyalist.

To be fair, there's a 0% chance Lucius would ever fall for that again.  I have no doubt that if he and Loken fought in an actual combat situation Loken would not be walking away.

 

The reasons I had Sigismund and Valdor as my first choice:

 

the "surviving 10,000 years" thing...Valdor has that going for him too.  And is also augmented beyond astartes-level.  And older/more experienced than any space marine.  And almost certainly has earned more honours.  And is trained for assassination.  

 

Sigismund is so good that he is what other legions' champions are usually compared to (and often, not favourably for them).  The role of champion killer was invented, specifically for him.  One of the main objectives of the battle of the Phall System was to eliminate him.  This is in a legion that has swordsmanship as one of it's specialties, too.

 

It could have happened, too.  There was tension between the Dorn and Valdor at certain points.  The Imperial Fists almost seceeded from the Imperium during the Codex Crisis.

 

So the battle between the Emperor's best against that of the legions.

 

Abaddon is a beast, but I think he would be systematically destroyed by either of these two.  Even on the Tabletop, his Heresy-era rules are kinda meh.

 

Also I don't think Malcador's not being a SM is even relevant, if he wanted he could just use biomancy powers to physically dominate them anyways.  If he was able to power the astronomican for hours, while holding back and saving power to give life to the Emperor?  Not something that would be fun to face on the battle field.

I think i may have mentioned this before on this thread or another but I'm not too sure. I agree that Lucius wouldn't fall for the same trick twice I just feel that his main achillies heel is the fact he expects everyone to play by his rules. I mean Loken beat him because he dropped his sword and went toe to toe, Tavitz was similar in the way that he went a little 'world eater' on Lucius and he wasn't entirely prepared for it. Sharrowkyn also (No spoilers on Exterminatus only that the two of them cross swords) but Lucius is wrong footed by the fact the Raven guard is on par with him and is destracted by that for a moment. Against another swordsman Lucius definitely has the edge but against say Khârn who would quite happily spit in your eyes and kick you in the crotch before burying his chain axe into your back I'm not sure I'd favour his chances.

 

 

 

As for Malcador, yes he could definitely use his psychic powers. However, using powers drain the user. Malcador is old. Chances are, he won't be able to put out for as long as Arhiman, Prayto or Rubio. What he does put out will be spectacular, for sure. Personal opinion is that unless he's able to do very big and faster than his opponent, he won't be in too many fights.

 

Personal opinion of course.

I'm not so sure Brother as mentioned above he did have enough energy to power the Astronomicon and aid the Emperor. Obviously he isnt going to be as physically conditioned as a legionary but who needs to be when you can reach out and melt your opponants eyes from the palace walls. I kind of see him as being like the old Maestor in Game of Thrones - he acts bent backed and wizened but backed into a corner he is a lot more mobile than he appears. I mean in his presence warriors like Garro and even Sigismund(i think i read somewhere unconfirmed) are given pause that's got to say something about his latent powers.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually I'm not even talking about the physical condition or genetic enhancements. Time and time again, psychic powers have been shown to be a match for physical strength. The Eisenhorn series is proof of that. But him up against say, Arhiman. It becomes iffy. Arhiman is one of the most well sorcerers/librarians in the background. And is the only big name sorcerer/librarian to live for ten thousand years. Arhiman has enough power in his own right as well. Combine that with Malcador being old(not frail, but more like a sprinter versus a jogger), he might meet an equal. Heck, maybe even if he went up against Magnus or Lorgar, he might still get a run for his money. It'd still be an equal fight, not denying that. Just pointing out disadvantages. Malcador's age runs against him. For Arhiman, it might be his lack of psychic power relative to Malcador with his enhanced endurance leveling the playing field. Magnus or Lorgar, well they're Primarchs who have practiced their psychic abilities.

[Wade Garrett]

You know, I can see how letting Malcador throw down with the young'uns could be cool. Kinda like when Yoda and Count Dracula fought in Attack of the Clones.

[Grimtooth]

I want to see Bjorn versus anyone really. The scene in which he basically goes after the primordial creator/Horus thing in Prospero Burns twice seriously rocked as there was no doubt in his attack despite no realistic chance of actually winning.

[Greyall]

On the subject of true bladewielding skills...my guess is that Valdor will be one scary mofo, if he gets to a duel scene.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

 

On the subject of true bladewielding skills...my guess is that Valdor will be one scary mofo, if he gets to a duel scene.

Part of me thinks that when they come to rewriting the battle of Terra he will be the 'lone marine' who interupts the Emperor and Horus' fight. Charging in knowing damn well he is going to be killed but giving the Master of Mankind the opening he needs.

[goosey_j]

 

On the subject of true bladewielding skills...my guess is that Valdor will be one scary mofo, if he gets to a duel scene.

Part of me thinks that when they come to rewriting the battle of Terra he will be the 'lone marine' who interupts the Emperor and Horus' fight. Charging in knowing damn well he is going to be killed but giving the Master of Mankind the opening he needs.

 

I've thought for a long time that Valdor is being set up to be that character. It would make a lot of sense, especially as Valdor is someone who's death would have the significance needed to snap the Emperor out of holding back on Horus.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Agreed, I think it has to either be Valdor or Loken. Remember in Horus Rising when Loken imagines his own death 'in a glorious last stand against impossible odds fighting along side the Emperor.'

[W0lfie]

Wait, Valdor made it to the 41st Millenium?

And while the rules are "meh", it all depends. Sigismund fights by a code. Abaddon and Sevatar don't. Sevatar is actually dangerous because he kept up with Sigismund, but when he started falling behind, he broke the code. Abaddon is the type to never follow the code. Both are dirty fighters. All three are considered premiere warriors and were put into the same list. So as I said, "skewed perception." Like Kaldor Draigo, but opposite.

As for Valdor, assassination probably not. What I mean by that is, being an assassin doesn't necessarily mean Jet Li+Bruce Lee+Steroids. More often than not, it means being able to put a ratchet into a tie so it can only tighten and strangles the wearer while you're sitting comfortably at home on another continent. However, being a Custodes and having to follow the Emperor through who knows kind of battlefields and having to be able to survive more than the Astartes can, that will give you a definite boost. But that boost can only go so far.

As for Malcador, yes he could definitely use his psychic powers. However, using powers drain the user. Malcador is old. Chances are, he won't be able to put out for as long as Arhiman, Prayto or Rubio. What he does put out will be spectacular, for sure. Personal opinion is that unless he's able to do very big and faster than his opponent, he won't be in too many fights.

Personal opinion of course.

Yeah. Valdor was even a high lord for several centuries after the heresy, to boot. He stepped down so he could focus of guarding the emprah.

And Sigismund...we know he duels according to certain rules. We have seen little enough of him in combat, so it's hard to say how he actually "fights".

As for the custodian assassinations, I don't think they would train custodians to tamper with ties. Custodians are trained to infiltrate and assassinate, and I'm guessing it's more along the lines of what we saw in Nemesis, with Valdor donning carapace armour, a sand cloak and a long-las.