Making Land Raiders work

[SamaNagol]

I want to find a way to run a 2 Raider, Raven and 2 Baal list at 1850. Counter Meta.

Anyone fancy giving me a hand? Just want to fill in the gaps. Mort, CAG?

[Ushtarador]

Put DC and termies in the raider, boost 18'' first turn and smash face! At least that's how I run mine maybe make one a redeemer to flame stuff as well!

[TheSauce]

I've had a lot of fun with termies in a land raider. Make sure you put a librarian in one of them to give them 5+ cover.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Funny you should bring this up! I've recently been kickin around ideas trying to make a list I like that includes a Land Raider. The maxim I've always adhered to is that a list with a LR usually requires the entire list to be built in a way to ensure its success.

Now, 2x LR and a SR seems super ambitious but I can totally see it working as counter-meta in a the rockpaperscissors-40k we've been discovering 6th Edition has turned out to be.

So obvious examination up front includes the min and max amount of points remaining after the chosen 'core'

• MIN-- 1270 pts: 5x ASM in LR w/MM (because you will always pay that 10pts for a MM) weighs at 325pts x 2, SR for 230pts, 2x Baals for 290pts and Librarian for 100pts
• MAX-- 1790 pts: 10 DC in LR at 460pts, 5 THSS Terms in LR at 485pts, 5 Scouts (75), SR (230), 2x Baals (145ea) and Mephiston (250)

So the Max is a little silly over-the-top. The Min is probably much closer to the way the list may need to be played, but I'm having a strong feeling that DC may have merit in the final idea.

Now, a large consideration will be which pattern LRs you are thinking about running Sama. Now, a dakka-SR and 2x Baals means you won't be hurting for bullets so Crusaders don't seem necessary, but at the same time taking LR-Crusaders will take the counter-meta you're tilting for and bring it over the top. Screw flexibility and simply maximize your specialty for smashing Infantry, right? The idea is not without merit--- being able to destroy Infantry while being impervious to small arms fire isn't the worst idea.

However, TLLC on standard LRs will help out enormously with AA, especially with PotMS so you can target up to 4 different Flyers with 2 LRs (not that you would... but you could). Also, the TLLC help out against MCs/FMCs which are one of the 3 Threats to LRs. Speaking of those...

The 3 things which kills AV14 reliably (in order of threat):

1. Melta
2. Lances & Str10 shooting (grouped together, bc both need 5+ to Pen)
3. Special Melee (MeltaBombs, Haywire Grens, MC Smash, etc)

Of the above list, Screens can mitigate #1 and #3. Cover Saves can help to mitigate #1 and #2. So it seems pretty clear that a Shield of Sanguinius Librarian will probably be an auto-include so that you can still maneuver without relying on terrain cover. Also, requiring Screens means that the Land Raiders will best be played as Support to an attacking-advance rather than the Point of the attack.

I see that all too often-- players misuse LRs by putting them right up front and expect them to lead an attack.... then they receive my MM Attackbikes to the face which cripples the advance of everything behind them. LRs are probably best in the 2nd line of troops, with something in front to screen-off drop-pod melta / deepstrike MM / Monster charges /etc.

I've got more thoughts, but I've gotta run-- be back later

[terminatorAM]

so why not use your own MM attack bikes as the screen that CAG is suggesting? They would be filling the anti-vehicle/MC roll that the crusaders would leave open if you go that route and are cheap enough and quick enough to charge and tie up any alpha strikers long enough for the raiders to deliver their cargo or have a clean up crew of assault marines jump from behind the land raider wall o' cover and join the fray. 

[Ushtarador]

I really don't like the standard land raider. You pay 250 points for 2 lascannons, one of which usually only snapfires, on an assault vehicle that wants to close the distance anyway. I feel the other 2 versions just synergize way better with the role as an offensive troop transport.

Also, I feel one wastes a lot of a 'raiders potential if there isn't something choppy inside - DC on the charge are amazing, and FnP hammertermies are awesome anyway. A second turn charge is almost guaranteed since landraiders can now boost 18'' in the first turn, so you should definitely use that.

[knife&fork]

What meta are you looking to counter?

 

 

 

so why not use your own MM attack bikes as the screen that CAG is suggesting? They would be filling the anti-vehicle/MC roll that the crusaders would leave open if you go that route and are cheap enough and quick enough to charge and tie up any alpha strikers long enough for the raiders to deliver their cargo or have a clean up crew of assault marines jump from behind the land raider wall o' cover and join the fray. 

 

I could see that work with 3*2 attack bikes, but there's only one FA slot left. Now, using the bikes as screens means positioning your CC oriented unit even further away from the enemy. Better to arrive late than never I suppose but it still feels like a waste.

 

In 6th I honestly think the heavy assault vehicle of choice should be the storm raven. It might not start on the board but on the other hand it's almost impossible to outmaneuver it like you can do with the lumbering LR that feels more at home as a counter charger. 

 

It's tricky...

The phobos pattern is a rock solid fire support unit, but very expensive. 

Redeemers and Crusaders don't get the discount if you buy them for anything that's worth putting in a raider in the first place.

Redeemers also suffer more from being a non fast vehicle with its main guns being short range and unable to snap shot.

Comedy deep strike option.

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

Here is my current list I have been using lately. It includes a LR as a transport for 5 DC.

 

Headquarters

(Warlord)

Librarian w/ JP

(Joined to Assault squad)

 

Elites

Sanguinary Priest w/ JP

(Joined to Assault squad)

 

Troops

Assault Squad w/ 2x Melta guns, PW

Tactical Squad w/ Lascannon, Plasma Rifle, PW

Death Company x5 w/ PW

Dedicated Transport - Land Raider w/ Multi-Melta

 

Fast Attack

Baal Predator w/ HB Sponsors, Dozer blades

Landspeeder Squadron x2 w/ x2 Tornado pattern HB

Landspeeder Typhoon

 

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad w/ x4 ML.

 

Sometimes I drop the Dc and Typhoon for a Sternguard. I think a LR with a Stergaurd and a LRC with a DC would be good.

[Jolemai]

My opinion is that you will want a Shield save so you will either need a Librarian riding inside a Land Raider or make use of a Furioso Librarian.

 

Your Predators will be anti-personnel (assuming TLAC options) while your Storm Raven will likely be the "normal" loadout of TLAC, TLMM, and Hurricane Bolters. This would lead me to want 1-2 of my Land Raiders to be Phobus spec for the anti-tank options.

 

You also need some troop choices for scoring purposes so perhaps fill the Land Raiders will Assault Squads? Perhaps a nine man squad in each with a Librarian in one and a Corbulo/Priest in the other. This will also get you the Land Raiders for 35 points less. I would also consider putting a very cheap troop choice in the Storm Raven for emergencies.

 

Alternatively you could fill a Land Raider with Death Company (meaning an eight man RAS with Librarian and Corbulo/Priest) or even fill the second with equally nasty (i.e Assault Terminators. While that would make use of the Assault Ramp you start to run out of points quickly. Maybe some MSU Razor squads at the back if points allow?

 

Another option could be Scouts with an ADL and Comm-relay to get the Storm Raven on sooner?

[ASSASSINAWOKEN]

Do you think two LRs in a 1500 point list is too much LR goodness even for non tournament play?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

This thread is reminding me of a 1000pt Local Tournament that I won using Mephiston, 2 standard Land Raiders, 13 ASM and a Priest.... but that was 5th Ed lol. So continuing thoughts on making Land Raiders work.

 

So, last post I concluded a 'ShieldofSang' Librarian was autoinclude. Since we are taking Land Raiders, that allows us use the excellent Terminator+StormShield Librarian to aid protecting that Warlord killpoint.

 

Now, BA have access to discounted Land Raiders when Assault Marines remove their Jump Packs. I've used this from time to time to give Death Company a ride--- the 5 man ASM will load into the Raven for late game scoring, or even Turn 3+ charges if strategically advantageous (versus Eldar Rangers, IG, or other soft melee targets). Their LR will deploy onto the table, empty. Now, for Rear-Screens (because drop-pod melta can land behind you too) I will set up either DC or ATerms where everyone's base is within 8" of a Door on the Land Raider (meaning the LR is facing away from the opponent). This means on Turn 1, a 6" move will get them within 2" distance and they simply load-up and then the LR can still move full distance.

 

The screens out front will protect from Turn 1 drop-pod melta, and yes I almost always use Attack Bikes -- great call terminatorAM. Other great choices for front screens are JumpPack ASM, 2xHB Speeder Squadrons, or Allied ______ (insert anything fast). In this particular case though, we have 2 LRs to screen and only 1 Fast Attack slot open-- so either the Baals will also be on Screen duty with Attack Bikes or else we should use the Speeders since they have 4" coherency and are bigger models as well, they can form a much larger screen all by themselves. Sadly, the Speeders are also a bad choice since it breaks the theme we are going for (resistance to Str7/8 shooting).

 

It is worth mentioning that Screens won't always be necessary. Examine the opponent's list-- if they have no threats to AV14 which require proximity then you can operate screenless obviously. This List-build's strength is much much greater when you don't need screens.

 

So with all this in mind, that brings us to a closer idea of where we are in points-standing:

• 1625 pts: TDA+SS Lib (145), two 5x ASM+LR (325 ea), 8x DC (160), two Baals (145 ea), SR (230), 3x MM Attackbike (150)

Examining the weaknesses in the list brings the obvious low-on-scoring issue-- but that concern is secondary for 2 LR & SR list. Low scoring is a given, and simply means accepting a loss versus certain build types on certain missions. No one is going to run 2 LR and a SR at 1850 and assume they can win through anything. That being said, lets continue with ways to make the build slightly more viable.

 

So 5 Scouts hiding in reserve, then walking onto the table to secure a home objective is an obvious way to help things out. 3 Scoring Units with DC+Bikes as Denial may work alright considering the build. So that leaves us with room for one more unit. We're looking for something that will synergize with the way we are tilting against the meta here (invincible to all shooting lower than Str9). So that means looking for more AV13... I'm thinking either an AC/LC Pred (conservative choice) or a Podded FragFurioso (aggressive choice). The FragFuri especially will take lots of Turn 1 pressure off the LRs.

 

In fact, there may be a 'Blitz List' hiding in there somewhere if you take 3 Pods (2 FragFuris) with 2 LRs -- Then the 18" LR Blitz comboed with 2 Dreads means you will likely overwhelm the opponent's anti-tank and Turn 2 should be rather profitable.... against certain lists. Would win big or lose big, that's for sure. The list would play every game the same though, and just hope the Blitz works. One-trick pony.

 

So back to the previous idea of a semi-balanced build. With Scouts and a FragFuri, we are looking at the following:

• 1860 pts: TDA+SS Lib (145), two 5x ASM+LR (325 ea), 8x DC (160), two Baals (145 ea), SR (230), 3x MM Attackbike (150), 5 Scouts (75), Furioso+Pod (160)

Now this puts us over by 10pts. If you go the AC/LC Pred route instead of the Furioso route, then you end up with 15pts to spare. Drop the Scouts and bump the ASM who start in their LR to 10 men.

• 1850 pts: TDA+SS Lib (145), 5x ASM+LR (325), 10x ASM+LR (415), 8x DC (160), two Baals (145 ea), 3x MM Attackbike (150), AC/LCs Pred (135)

With this build, the 5 man ASM can either ride in the Raven or can take the place of the Scouts and simply stay in Reserve, then walk on later to secure a home objective. The 10-man ASM can Combat Squad while still riding in the LR if necessary as well.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Do you think two LRs in a 1500 point list is too much LR goodness even for non tournament play?

No, but you have to be careful.

 

I was playtesting my 1500pt Tourny list against a SW player back in November, so here is a cautionary tale (granted, he threw both LR at me the whole 18" blitz thing):

 

 

Next up, I played Big Guns (5 Obj) on Dawn deployment. I played against a SW list, roughly:

Rune Priest (Divination): Rolled Prescience + Foreboding

Rune Priest (Divination): Rolled Prescience + Precognition

3 WG- 2 PF, 1 Combiplas

10 GH- 2 PG, Banner

9 GH- Flamer, Banner, Axe

8 GH- Melta, Banner, Axe

6 Long Fang- 3 ML, 2 LC

Land Raider Standard

Land Raider Redeemer

Defense Line

 

I won 12-3 VPs. So with Big Guns mission, pretty much his whole list was scoring-- but if there's one thing my list is not afraid of, its AV14. Turn 2 I had the MM Attack Bikes, a DoA melta-team, the Raven and Mephiston all lined up on both Land Raiders-- easily broke them both open, and both GH failed their Pinning Checks. SO that's how that game went down, not much else to say...

[Chado23]

 

 

Now, BA have access to discounted Land Raiders when Assault Marines remove their Jump Packs. I've used this from time to time to give Death Company a ride--- the 5 man ASM will load into the Raven for late game scoring, or even Turn 3+ charges if strategically advantageous (versus Eldar Rangers, IG, or other soft melee targets). Their LR will deploy onto the table, empty. Now, for Rear-Screens (because drop-pod melta can land behind you too) I will set up either DC or ATerms where everyone's base is within 8" of a Door on the Land Raider (meaning the LR is facing away from the opponent). This means on Turn 1, a 6" move will get them within 2" distance and they simply load-up and then the LR can still move full distance.

 

I thought Assault Marines take the Land Raider as a Dedicated Vehicle which means that no other unit can use it. Did it change in 6th?

[Brother Maikel]

 

 

 

Now, BA have access to discounted Land Raiders when Assault Marines remove their Jump Packs. I've used this from time to time to give Death Company a ride--- the 5 man ASM will load into the Raven for late game scoring, or even Turn 3+ charges if strategically advantageous (versus Eldar Rangers, IG, or other soft melee targets). Their LR will deploy onto the table, empty. Now, for Rear-Screens (because drop-pod melta can land behind you too) I will set up either DC or ATerms where everyone's base is within 8" of a Door on the Land Raider (meaning the LR is facing away from the opponent). This means on Turn 1, a 6" move will get them within 2" distance and they simply load-up and then the LR can still move full distance.

 

I thought Assault Marines take the Land Raider as a Dedicated Vehicle which means that no other unit can use it. Did it change in 6th?

 

The only restriction on Dedicated Transports is that only the unit that purchases it may start the game inside (plus any attached IC's).  Once the game has started any transport is fair game for any unit in your army from the same codex.  It was the same way in 5th (dunno about prior editions).

[Brother Chryseth]

I've typically included a LR as a delivery system for my Death Company in 1500+ point lists.

Avoid Deepstriking them, despite any temptation to do so. 

If worked in tandem with a SR, it can help offset the urge to take two ravens, and draw some fire away from softer targets, like bikes and speeders in my experience.

I know a lot of folks use bikes to screen away any upcoming melta, but I've found Speeders to serve a similar purpose. Same difference, I suppose.

:-)
 

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Final thought I forgot to mention above-- when you take a Shield of Sanguinius Librarian, his other Power should be Unleash Rage. Preferred Enemy for DC is very nice, because it works as a 50% Chaplain -- WS5 means you hit on 3+ and Str5 (FC) means you wound on 3+ against MEQ opponents. Preferrred Enemy gives you reroll of 1s, so basically only 2s are complete whiffs. Very Nice.

[CompoundSapper]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, BA have access to discounted Land Raiders when Assault Marines remove their Jump Packs. I've used this from time to time to give Death Company a ride--- the 5 man ASM will load into the Raven for late game scoring, or even Turn 3+ charges if strategically advantageous (versus Eldar Rangers, IG, or other soft melee targets). Their LR will deploy onto the table, empty. Now, for Rear-Screens (because drop-pod melta can land behind you too) I will set up either DC or ATerms where everyone's base is within 8" of a Door on the Land Raider (meaning the LR is facing away from the opponent). This means on Turn 1, a 6" move will get them within 2" distance and they simply load-up and then the LR can still move full distance.

I thought Assault Marines take the Land Raider as a Dedicated Vehicle which means that no other unit can use it. Did it change in 6th?

The only restriction on Dedicated Transports is that only the unit that purchases it may start the game inside (plus any attached IC's). Once the game has started any transport is fair game for any unit in your army from the same codex. It was the same way in 5th (dunno about prior editions).

I Don't have my dex in in front of me however I a pretty sure death co can take a lr as a dedicated transport but unlike asm the don't get the discount and must pay full price for them being the godhammer/crusader being 250 and the redeemer being 240. Which can be nice so you don't have a 5 man assault squad with no jp hanging out ass in the wind and just putting the lr on the table with dc in it so no "shanagins" that anyone can claim for being a different squads transport. I don't like to deal with rules Nazi's when I know I'm right do to clearly written rules.

[Morticon]

Ahoy!

 

Im terrible at Raider lists. They scare me (using them). The prospect of losing 250 points in one go is just too much to put me off. 

 

 

In theory though, I would definitely have them as part of ASM for the discount.  Id focus on making a predominantly shooting list, and maybe just have one counter charge element-  5terms + libby + Corbs maybe?

 

If im not mistaken you can fit this in:

 

Libby

Corbs

5 terms (4 hammers)

Raider

5 ASM - flmr

Raider

5 ASM - flmr

Razor - TLAC

 

5 ASM -

Razor - TLAC

Baal - hbss 

Baal - hbss

Raven 

Raven 

 

Low on scoring troops, but high in firepower, and a solid counter element. 

[SamaNagol]

How many pts is that. Mort? 1850? 2k?

[Chado23]

   Yesterday was my first tournament and I tried to use a Land Raider list. Though I couldn't have all the options I originally wanted because of lacking some models. 

 

At 2000:

 

HQ:

Librarian- TA, SShield

 

Elite:

Furioso- Frag Cannon, Drop Pod

Assault Terminators- 3x Shield/Hammer, 2x Lighting Claws

 

Troops:

5x Tactical Marines

5x Assault- MeltaBomb, LandRaider (with Multi Melta)

5x Assault- Landraider (with Multi Melta)

 

Fast Attack:

Baal Predator- TLAC, SS: HB

Baal Predator- TLAC,SS:HB

 

Heavy Support:

StormRaven: TLAC,SS: Hurricane Bolters, TLMM

 

My score was 1-0-2. My opponents where Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Tyranids.  The land raiders had lot of fire power for the enemy tanks, and the Baal predators was a nice base against the infantry, AC and HB against Tyranids rocks. Only the DA had enough lascannons to do some damage in the vehicles. The list was more fun than I was expecting.

[SamaNagol]

Is that 2 losses or 2 draws?

[Chado23]

2 losses:  I wasn't allowed to finish my melee (due time cap) and lost 4-7 when it would be 5-4. And the other one was the relic vs Tyrranids.

[SamaNagol]

LRs should do great in relic

[tomjoad]

Versus a Tervigon? I can't think of anything in the game as well suited for The Relic as a Tervigon, holding it forever, and pooping out gaunts to screen her off of charges and cover her retreat.

[Mr.selfdestruct]

Ok I have one that I've been trying to perfect for a while now.  I am enamored with the idea of running a Heresy Era World Eaters force with C:BA and so far I'm invisioning a heavy armored spearhead, very agressive but still centered around heavy armor. I know the meta these days frowns upon lots of vehicles, especially with dark lances, gauss weapons, and melta guns being so common but dammit, it sounds fun! 

  Keep in mind that this is supposed to be a World Eaters list

  Gabriel Seth

  ASM x5 in land raider

  ASM x5 in land raider

  DC x5 in land raider w/Seth  (Possibly crusader. I know they aren't heresy era, but perhaps a brutal pattern built by the WE on a limited basis?)

  Baal Predator HB sponsons (same as above explanation for having them. Don't they just seem like a World Eater idea?)

  Baal Predator HB sponsons

  Predator AC/LC sponsons

  Predator AC/LC sponsons OR Vindicator

  leaving 50 points for squad upgrades, power weapons, multimeltas, etc

 

  So it's short on scoring units, but it has plenty of anti infantry, plenty of anti armor, and enough twin linked for anti air...and nothing below a AV 13. Screen the raiders with the predator chassis and advance across the board, depositing assault squads to capture as you do?  Am I soft in the head or would this be as nasty as it seems in my head?