Dreadknights: How do you run yours?

[Gentlemanloser]

Spartan, the NDK is one of our most buffed units by the 6th edition rules changes.

 

Plus 'Torrent' S6 Flamers just pwn faces. ;)

[IndigoJack]

I'm rather surprised to hear that NDKs are doing well at all. They don't trade very well, and they're honestly not very hard to kill (At least not as hard as some of us are claiming they are). 

 

Take, for instance, a very common occurance in my matches. My henchmen, Strike Squads, and Stormraven peel open a few chimeras/manticores, leaving a few infantry units exposed. My NDKs can then each flame an infantry squad and maybe annihilate one. All things said, what have I killed with my 2000 point army? ~400 points worth of assets if I'm spot on with everything (... I can count on my hands the times that's happened). The shooting phase back? I've probably lost anywhere from 1 to 2 strike squads, a couple of bolter acos, and I'll be lucky if my NDKs are holding on by a thread. Average losses equate to about 700 points gone. It becomes worse from there, as I have much less firepower while my opponent is barely affected by losses. All things told, the NDKs have killed 100, perhaps 150 points before they are slagged. When I've spent 235 to kill ~125 points, I'm not happy at all. Perhaps it gets better in MEQ match-ups, but I still have my doubts in that regard, as they still don't work very efficiently no matter what kinds of tricks I pull. 

 

Perhaps it's just my set of circumstances, but I don't see their worth, and I wouldn't recommend them in general.

"Making points back" is one of the biggest misconceptions about units in 40k. A rhino will rarely kill 35pts of things, but that doesn't mean that can't be used to effectively to move a unit up the field or to block LoS/provide cover. I've found DKs to work great in semi-mech armies since the same kind of weapons you would fire at a tank are also effective against DKs. A DK can be used to put pressure on your opponent early and buy you valuable time to get into position. I'm not saying dreadknights are invincible, or are the right answer to every situation, but I've definitely found them to be a good unit.

[number6]

I'm rather surprised to hear that NDKs are doing well at all.

Better army list, perhaps?

Better tactics, definitely.

From reading your description, it sounds to me like you're trying to attack too many enemy targets all at once. Instead, you should be using your army to create local (i.e., small) areas of superiority on the tabletop. Don't spread your potency, focus it. Stop worrying about units "making their points back". Instead, you should always use an overwhelming force (i.e., way more "points" than you need) to destroy smaller (inferior) sections of the enemy.

Take armies apart piece by little piece. Do not attempt to destroy as much as might be possible. Instead, try as best you can to "guarantee" the destruction of limited portions of the enemy in a space you designate. Then occupy that space and continue.

+++++

Also, it's been two days since I posted a link to batreps showcasing how my walking DK shines in a wide variety of situations. No comments yet ... from anybody?

[Vorenus]

Number6:  Would it be too much to ask you to repost those batreps on Bolter and Chainsword somewhere?  I can't access the site you posted them on, and I'm guessing that other people probably had that same problem.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Also, it's been two days since I posted a link to batreps showcasing how my walking DK shines in a wide variety of situations. No comments yet ... from anybody?

Put a teleporter on him. If your opponents already suck at killing him while he's in Slowpoke mode, in Flying Ninja mode he'll be unstoppable. Prepare to lose friends though :)

[IndigoJack]

+++++Also, it's been two days since I posted a link to batreps showcasing how my walking DK shines in a wide variety of situations. No comments yet ... from anybody? :P

Would you mind starting a new thread with the batrep or at least a link to it? I just don't want to take this thread too far off topic.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I dunno man, it pretty much is exactly what the thread is about. But yeah, because we are lazy :) a link would be nice. 

[number6]

No problem. Here's the topic. I've only got the time to put out game 1 against the Orks at this moment. Will complete the reports ASAP. (The subsequent games are more interesting once I start moving up the ladder...)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Won't deny you're making good use of the walking DK. I will say though, I think it has more to do with your opponents not bringing the right tools. In the case of the former (Nob Bikers, lol wut), he has pretty much no shooting of note except for Wazzdakka. The latter (Necrons+Orks), he isn't bringing strong shooting units, and he has no chance in melee. Plus, heavy incinerator is absolute gold against xenos, due to their lack of 3+ or 2+ armour units. 

 

I think things will be different when you come up against IG or Marines. They both can and will bring long range AP2 to kill tanks, but works equally well at popping DK's. 

[Vash]

I wary my setting from jumping and walking. All depends on the army synergy/strategy I am using for the army in general. 

But I always include the heavy incinerator. 

I seldom play a whole game with him alive in the end. But I have never felt that he wasnt worth it. Taking out important flanks, diverting the enemies attention, etc. 

 

Some people like the NDK, some don't. As spartan says, he aint hard to kill. But... the opponent basically have to kill him. If he isn't dealt with he will do serious damage. So with that in mind, the GK player can use this to his advantage to safeguard other units while they deal with the NDK. 

Also,  supporting the NDK with the right units he will be hard to kill, since target priority will come into play. Should they target terminators/paladins or the NDK if they are coming together? In my world the Terminators do more damage (higher cost though...). 

But, in general looking at spartans armies. No the NDK really blows. 40 Strikes made for fire support, a bunch of shooty bolter squishy henchmen, nothing that really tags along to support or take the target priority away from the enemies plasma guns/heavy weapons. 

[Darkmagi]

I personally have to throw my hat in for the PT, Great Sword, And Heavy Incenerator.  When I run 1 I run 2, It causes at least 1 to make it to enemy lines and as I play Drago wing My Main Pally Star usually gets ignored in favor of knocking 1 dreadknight out, however I've never lost 1 in a single turn not even against 3x teams of Tau Broadside units.... Nasty units but still couldnt kill 1 dreadknight... (possibly due to god rolls on my Invuls.... but still)

[spartan249]

N6, I'm sorry I don't play in a meta where the NDK can flourish. Local Superiority is a concept that I harp on quite often as well, but enacting such tactics becomes more and more difficult the more you play the same opponents, as the competent ones begin to understand the match-up and find counters to those tactics. NDKs are tolerable vs Marine armies for me, given their limited access to plasma/las and the ability to trade rather then sacrifice, but against non-MEQ (Speaking primarily of IG at this point), I just don't see the point of such an expensive unit that is unable to act as more then a sacrifice for time. 

 

I've personally never had a problem neutralizing enemy NDKs, and only the more... challenged members of my team have problems with mine when I occasionally run them. If C: Dark Angels is any indication of the direction of this game is heading, it's only going to get worse for the poor NDK.

[Vash]

Spartan. You really need to understand that your not always right. Nothing in our GK dex is hard to counter.

Your blob of henchmen die to simple flamers. With today's no scatter units and various tactics it isn't hard to get them.

 

Please understand that some people might be better than you in controlling certain units. Such as the NDK. It works for them and their army style.

 

I for one can't handle the psifelmen. This to personal disgust for that unit entry. I fight on that he isn't necessary but fully understand that others have great use and success with it.

 

So all in all. Your a great player no doubt about that. But your play style doesn't mesh with the NDK. To be honest neither does mine now days. I seldome use my NDKs atm.

 

I am generally against large creatures who cost a lot of points. Ie demon lords, ork bosses kitted up etc. they tend to die to easy if they are not well protected or get their target priority away from them.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

With regards to keeping him alive, you need to give them something even more enticing/high priority to kill. For example, one of my army list mainstays is a TDA blob advancing up the centre, looking mean. That forces a bit of a quandry for your opponent. The NDK is a more certain kill with plasma guns/lascannon, but every unit that doesn't shoot at the Terminators risks more of them surviving to make charge range. On the flipside, if they don't down the NDK, he's going to wreck 2-3 units by himself. 

 

Stuff like that will help with keeping him alive. That said, if he lives past Turn 2, its a minor miracle. My experience with him is;

 

Turn 1: Shunt up like crazy, threaten a flank, try and hide behind terrain, if not land in the middle of his force and force multiple charges (otherwise i just challenge out the squad fist and murder it). 

Turn 2: After eating most of an armies firepower and still having 2 wounds to go, shoots+charges the backfield unit he needs to eat. Due to his huge base size, you can often contact multiple units and still keep your 5 attacks (Disordered Charge only applies if you actually declare multiple targets, you can declare one and accidentally snag others). I then use challenges to shut down enemy powerfist Sarges etc, and try and take as many down with him as possible. 

Turn 3: Oh wow he's still alive, keep eating stuff (preferably tanks, as PsyDreads sometimes have trouble with them

Turn 4: Really? Okay then, eat his Troops trying to hold his backfield objective

Turn 5: Game is over

[number6]

@spartan249: Good to see you're still open-minded.

For the record: I've never said that the dreadknight is required, or the best unit in the codex.

Ever since the GK dex hit the streets, I've always said that virtually every unit has a purpose in the right army build.

I am forever bothered by people that insist that some units are total crap, or are "must haves", or must always be taken with certain kit to be any good (otherwise they're crap). That kind of close-mindedness isn't just bad for the hobby, or discouraging to new-ish players ... it's Just Plain Wrong.

There are maybe just a couple of units in the codex that, IMHO, are really too "bad" to be worth including. But these units are definitely exceptions.

If you don't wanna use the dreadknight, and don't feel he brings something to your army ... coolio. But constantly insisting that he's pure awful is tunnel-visioned and ignorant. My regular play group consists of two past winners of 'Ard Boyz, a finalist at Adepticon, and semi-finalists at Adepticon, NOVA, and the BoLS tourney. It's a quality group of players. I lose to them, I beat them. I use my walking dreadknight in losses and wins against them.

What I'm saying is: even good players can't kill him all the time, and good players don't outright dismiss him as awful. He does work. At least for me.

And if he works for me, he can work for anybody.

So while I firmly believe that (almost) every unit is useful, everything depends on the overall army list build and the overall tactics and strategy. The dreadknight isn't appropriate for all lists. But that doesn't make him useless.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Eversor, Callidus and Culuxes are pure aweful. ;)

 

There, I said it! :P

[thade]

The Eversor, Callidus and Culuxes are pure aweful.

There, I said it!

You did said it! But the word form you want there is not "awe-ful"...if you're trying to describe a thing that fills you with awe and wonder, you want to use the word "awesome". But I get what you meant and I'm glad you like them. Me too. <3

[Gentlemanloser]

/self faceplam

 

:P

 

I'm not even going to edit my post!

 

Awful GL, just awful...

 

;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

I am forever bothered by people that insist that some units are total crap, or are "must haves", or must always be taken with certain kit to be any good (otherwise they're crap). That kind of close-mindedness isn't just bad for the hobby, or discouraging to new-ish players ... it's Just Plain Wrong.

Not really. GW designs such things into the game and the meta. Some units are just bad because GW doesn't understand their own rules (or overprices the unit). Some units are undercosted for the same reasons (unintended consequences, underpricing). Knights don't really have awful units persay, just sub-par stuff. I'd say our only truly bad unit is Stern, simply because of 'Zone of Banishment'. 

 

@GL: I wouldn't say the Assassins are bad...Vindicare just overshadows them in the same role. Eversor suffers from no Infiltrate/Scout/Outflank to get him into position quickly. Callidus is sorta good for one turn, then tends to die. Culexus was kinda hilarious until the speculum nerf in the FAQ, now he is a short-range AP1 platform that gets overshadowed by shooty Henchmen. 

[DAwarrior43]

N6, I'm sorry I don't play in a meta where the NDK can flourish. Local Superiority is a concept that I harp on quite often as well, but enacting such tactics becomes more and more difficult the more you play the same opponents, as the competent ones begin to understand the match-up and find counters to those tactics. NDKs are tolerable vs Marine armies for me, given their limited access to plasma/las and the ability to trade rather then sacrifice, but against non-MEQ (Speaking primarily of IG at this point), I just don't see the point of such an expensive unit that is unable to act as more then a sacrifice for time. 

 

I've personally never had a problem neutralizing enemy NDKs, and only the more... challenged members of my team have problems with mine when I occasionally run them. If C: Dark Angels is any indication of the direction of this game is heading, it's only going to get worse for the poor NDK.

 

I guess I fail to see how a 160 pt NDK w/ Heavy Incinerator is expensive. I guess it would depend on what is in the rest of your list but a couple of those soaking up a majority of your opponents AP2 and higher means less heat on my strikes, henchmen, and blob squad. So even if they end up as sacrificial I'm ok with it as long as that sacrifice means the rest of my army meets their objectives.

[nurglez]

Nice to see that 6th buffed DK's, I was using them in 5th!

 

I've used DK's primarily as heavy support in my Draigowing army, and they've been very useful.

 

1750 points
draigo, 15 pallies, 2 teleporting DKs with heavy incinerators, 1 with greatsword. Many many people advised me to dump the DK's and replace them with psyrifle dreads (over 500 points in 2 models), yet the DK's proved very useful, wiping out infantry with 2+ cover saves, providing distractions, tying up units etc.

 

Now the greatsword is worth it, and there are many things I would drop for it, but also certain other things I wouldn't, also only 1 of my DK's has the sword anyway so its a moot point :D

 

Teleporter, well it depends on your tactics, your army etc. I've run them with and without, and they do what I expect them to. My current 1500 list has a DK with sword, teleporter and Incinerator and a second with just the incinerator, I often deepstrike it in (as I use 3 servo skulls) and this lets me apply pressure where needed, or support another squad. It also lets me drop a decently tough scoring unit into their home field, if needed.

[spartan249]

@DAW43

The divide in our realities is probably the Personal Teleporter. Having used both with and without, I think the NDK improves dramatically in actual performance when equipped with it, as it gives you options and allows a more proactive style of combat. Of course, the obvious drawback is the dramatically increased price, which is probably where I'm getting hung up. Additionally, I don't have the reserve space to deep strike a non-PT NDK, as my Strike Squads need it, so they're either completely defensive or too expensive. 

 

@N6

I will admit, I become close-minded and judgmental about units I have mediocre experiences with. 

 

In my army config, NDKs are too expensive and die very quickly without accomplishing much. I think this is because the PT is essential to making them work, and that pushes them over the edge for me. Now, I could obviously take the PTs off, but that begs the question of threat delivery: how is it done without the PT? The only other simple solution lies with deep strike, which has become all but impossible thanks to the absurd reserve limit for me. To solve this problem, I have to either switch to full henchmen (I think GKs are fragile... imagine what I think about henchmen without bolstered cover) and mechanize, or cut points from firepower to provide the knights rides. The consequences for the latter decision are two-fold: I yield first blood very easily given the rides are rhinos, and I stand a chance of being stranded in a very bad position from the start with such a mobility strategy, whereas a Deep Striking strategy gives me the advantage of a full shooting phase and the ability to react to the OPFOR's moves more readily. 

 

Given this context, taking PTs off the NDKs doesn't really lead to a better functioning list IMO. Less reliable mobility strategy, less kill potential given the drastically reduced engagement range of many of the units in the list including the NDKs, and I don't even get an extra NDK from the whole deal as those points are going into transport options. 

 

You may say that giving strike squads Rhinos and such isn't such a horrible thing to do and that it'll improve the performance of my list. I would have been inclined to agree with you in 5th edition, but in the current paradigm, I've seen way too many Marine/GK players using rhinos to their ultimate detriment both against me and against others. Theory is great and all, but I trust my experience much more then theory, and in this case, light APCs for marines have become a huge Achilles' Heel.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

@GL: I wouldn't say the Assassins are bad...Vindicare just

overshadows them in the same role. Eversor suffers from no

Infiltrate/Scout/Outflank to get him into position quickly. Callidus is

sorta good for one turn, then tends to die. Culexus was kinda hilarious

until the speculum nerf in the FAQ, now he is a short-range AP1 platform

that gets overshadowed by shooty Henchmen.

 

At least they have frags now! Eh? ;)

 

But while the Vindicare does overshadow them, they are still bad units.  CC minis that aren't durable, fast or ICs?  We know how well that works for Crowe! 

 

The Eversor is just a CC units that is outclassed by our other CC units, cheaper.  No reason to run him.  Ever.

 

The Callidus has been nerfed to the ground, by making her unable to assault the turn she comes on.  Now she flamers something, then gets shot to death the next turn.  OK or someone as cheap as Marbo.  Not ok for her.

 

And the Culexes.  Well, the less said about him the better. :P

[IndigoJack]

You may say that giving strike squads Rhinos and such isn't such a horrible thing to do and that it'll improve the performance of my list. I would have been inclined to agree with you in 5th edition, but in the current paradigm, I've seen way too many Marine/GK players using rhinos to their ultimate detriment both against me and against others. Theory is great and all, but I trust my experience much more then theory, and in this case, light APCs for marines have become a huge Achilles' Heel.

Aww, it's like you wrote that last part for me I won't say rhino's would improve your list, since they don't seem to work for you. I would also say that rhino's are only a "huge Achilles' Heel" for those who don't know how to utilize them. I play mech GK. Not only that, I win with mech GK. I have no problem with my light AV hulls. They take my GKSS to midfield, then block line of sight in my opponent's shooting phase and charges in their assault phase. The key to using mech, is to understand that they aren't going to live forever. I don't expect my vehicles to last longer than turn 3.

I hear someone say, "but what about first blood?????" First blood almost always goes to the person who goes first unless you've built a first blood denial list. Even in cover, psyfledreads aren't that hard to kill with concentrated fire. I say forget about first blood. It only really matters for Emperor's will and The Relic, where the objectives are so few in number that you need secondary objectives to break ties.

Vehicles are effective if you want to learn to use them. This article by hulksmash outlines everything I've been saying about vehicles since about November when I realized mech wasn't dead. You don't have to like mech, but you should realize that mech has a purpose and can be used to support many armies effectively.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The divide in our realities is probably the Personal Teleporter. Having used both with and without, I think the NDK improves dramatically in actual performance when equipped with it, as it gives you options and allows a more proactive style of combat. Of course, the obvious drawback is the dramatically increased price, which is probably where I'm getting hung up. Additionally, I don't have the reserve space to deep strike a non-PT NDK, as my Strike Squads need it, so they're either completely defensive or too expensive.

I dunno why it doesn't come standard on him. I suppose the design idea was 'Derpstrike in and look scary', but as always, GW forgets you can't assault from Reserves. I agree with you, he's not for every list.

At least they have frags now! Eh?

But while the Vindicare does overshadow them, they are still bad units. CC minis that aren't durable, fast or ICs? We know how well that works for Crowe!

The Eversor is just a CC units that is outclassed by our other CC units, cheaper. No reason to run him. Ever.

The Callidus has been nerfed to the ground, by making her unable to assault the turn she comes on. Now she flamers something, then gets shot to death the next turn. OK or someone as cheap as Marbo. Not ok for her.

And the Culexes. Well, the less said about him the better.

Wouldn't be Imperial units if they didn't have frags lol

Eh, I feel like with a few changes they'd be playable. They have amazing statlines and 4++/6+ FNP after all.