Horrors, and how to run them!

[Sixestohit]

Hey guys,

 

I've been playing mono Tzeentch for a while now, they started off as a side project for my CSM's and quickly developed into a force on their own. I'm loving the new book, and although I'm not entirely sure on how much I'll compete with them, I love my Horrors too!

 

So I was wondering about unit size. I have 50 Horrors and don't know whether to make a couple of larger units and a couple of smaller units, or 5 units of 10. 

 

In units of ten I could kits out a herald for four of them and give him the tzeentch primaris and one divination to boost the units shooting quite a bit, or I could run them pretty much naked. With a herald a unit of ten comes to a little over 200 points, without a little over 100. So I was wondering how everyone else (all 6 of the remaining people on the planet that are prepared to run horrors that is :D ) is planning to run them?

 

Thanks,

 

James.

[Iron Sage]

Got 40 dryads that I am going to, one of these days in the future (:P), convert into horrors.

 

I think they can be used in several ways. Most people will probably use them in larger squads with primaris I guess.

But what immediatly has caught my eye, is minimum squads due to the fact that they still get to use psy even when down to 1 single horror. In addition to that, there is another asset concering minimum squads, and that is that all of a sudden, several (except Tzeentchs firestorm which is quite weak anyways) spells suddenly becomes quite good, and not just the primaris one.

[Sixestohit]

That's another good point! The other powers don't feel so much of a waste when you're not running a unit of 20!

 

The fact that they're just as effective when down to 1 model as they are at 10 is also a really great thing. Not to mention the objective taking potential when running multiple smaller squads!

 

James.

[Captain Idaho]

Smaller squads can ensure you can finish off/devastate squads each turn so you don't end up suffering from Warpflame boosting your opponent.

 

Of course holding an objective is hard with smaller units when isolated, but that's probably a strategic issue.

[Sception]

wait, what?  Larger squads make warpflame less likely.  a max squad is 4d6 shots with one chance of warpflame, two min squads is 4d6 with two chances of warpflame.  Also, a max squad lets you spread the boost of a herald farther, to further maximize the amount of damage the enemy has to suffer for each bite at the warpflame apple.  If you're concerned about warpflame, that's a reason to take fewer larger squads (or avoid horrors altogether), not more smaller ones.

 

Seems I have been reading this wrong, see below.

 

In that case, the only advantage in large squads is stretching your herald benefits, which may be worth considering or may not be.

[Seahawk]

Now, I've been re-reading Warpflame and I don't think it's nearly as bad as previously thought.

 

"At the end of each phase, any unit that suffered one or more unsaved Wounds during the phase from an attack with this special rule must take a Toughness Test."

 

I read that as, "Did you suffer any wounds from Warpflame attacks this turn? From three units you say Okay, roll a single TT. You failed? Take D3 wounds that ignore armor/cover. Awesome, two died. On to the assault phase..."

 

Or in other words, I read it as one test for the whole phase, no matter how many times you were attacked and suffered casualties. Thoughts?

[Iron Sage]

Now, I've been re-reading Warpflame and I don't think it's nearly as bad as previously thought.

 

"At the end of each phase, any unit that suffered one or more unsaved Wounds during the phase from an attack with this special rule must take a Toughness Test."

 

I read that as, "Did you suffer any wounds from Warpflame attacks this turn? From three units you say Okay, roll a single TT. You failed? Take D3 wounds that ignore armor/cover. Awesome, two died. On to the assault phase..."

 

Or in other words, I read it as one test for the whole phase, no matter how many times you were attacked and suffered casualties. Thoughts?

Yupp, thats how I read it as well, and this is also how most other simmilar rules work (soulblaze).

 

Warpflame is a bad rule, but it`s hardly bad enough for me to go around and "worry about it". Obviously though, some matchups will be less than stellar, such as when facing a predominatly FNP army for instance. But against most armies, its very iffy, but not something which should demolish your strategy. I would personally worry more about meeting armies stacking gear or characters that makes PSY less likely to work :)

[Sception]

FNP armies are especially bad, but any army with T4 or greater will give you troubles, especially if they have sufficient armor to significantly cut back on wounds caused by warpflame attacks.  Such enemies will take relatively few wounds from warpflame attacks, and then have a greater than 50% chance of getting permanently buffed by the special rule.  Since marines make up the bulk of armies played, this strikes me as a pretty serious problem.  How many marines do six minimum sized units of horrors kill?  Lets say four successfully cast their spell - that's 8d6 shots, averaging 28.  I forget, are horrors BS3 or 4?  I thought three, in which case that's 14 hits, 7 wounds, maybe two or three through saves.  So even if you max out all your troop squads with min size horror units, and manage to get them all on the table at the same time in the same place to concentrate fire on the same target.  Even after all that, you still only kill maybe a third of a marine squad on averate, after which the 2/3 of a squad that remains probably has FNP now.

 

And that's a full force org of small horror squads.  Six troop slots worth of models, all shooting at a single squad of ten marines and failing to bring it down, and that's assuming you don't jay yourself over with deep strike or warpstorm rolls.

 

 

You'll get some help from your other slots, of course.  And from allies.  But I'm not convinced that running base troops that are that terrible at fighting the most common base troops in the game is a good call, and I'm certainly not convinced that 2 to 3 wounds against marines is worth giving them a chance at a permanent buff.  I expect to be able to kill that many marines with a single round of shooting from a single chaos marine squad, without any chance of buffing the loyalists in return and without having to ask their permission to attack them via deny the witch and psychic defenses (though admittedly I run some risk of self injury from plasma - but the horrors risk self injury from perils, so...)

[Iron Sage]

FNP armies are especially bad, but any army with T4 or greater will give you troubles, especially if they have sufficient armor to significantly cut back on wounds caused by warpflame attacks.  Such enemies will take relatively few wounds from warpflame attacks, and then have a greater than 50% chance of getting permanently buffed by the special rule.  Since marines make up the bulk of armies played, this strikes me as a pretty serious problem.  How many marines do six minimum sized units of horrors kill?  Lets say four successfully cast their spell - that's 8d6 shots, averaging 28.  I forget, are horrors BS3 or 4?  I thought three, in which case that's 14 hits, 7 wounds, maybe two or three through saves.  So even if you max out all your troop squads with min size horror units, and manage to get them all on the table at the same time in the same place to concentrate fire on the same target.  Even after all that, you still only kill maybe a third of a marine squad on averate, after which the 2/3 of a squad that remains probably has FNP now.

 

And that's a full force org of small horror squads.  Six troop slots worth of models, all shooting at a single squad of ten marines and failing to bring it down, and that's assuming you don't jay yourself over with deep strike or warpstorm rolls.

 

 

You'll get some help from your other slots, of course.  And from allies.  But I'm not convinced that running base troops that are that terrible at fighting the most common base troops in the game is a good call, and I'm certainly not convinced that 2 to 3 wounds against marines is worth giving them a chance at a permanent buff.  I expect to be able to kill that many marines with a single round of shooting from a single chaos marine squad, without any chance of buffing the loyalists in return and without having to ask their permission to attack them via deny the witch and psychic defenses (though admittedly I run some risk of self injury from plasma - but the horrors risk self injury from perils, so...)

Fair enough. That was a very well made point :)

 

Yupp, T4 enemies dont really "fear" warpflame much, heh. But as for the Horrors themselves, they seem a fairly resonable unit to my eyes for their points cost. If you have say, 2-3 10 man horror units, you can use them differently as well, since you are likely to roll various powers (which you would never ever do if they were 20 man, as that pretty much stipulates primaris as the sole viable power). IMO 10 man squads that serve as irritants (remember, the foe needs to kill them all to neuter them as a threat) can be nifty. Its not as they will ever break your lists because of their high points cost :)

 

I am not saying that Horrors are "amazing" though. But yes, I think they can be a pretty good unit.

[Seahawk]

They're BS3, but Flickering Fire is S5 base, S6 if you take a Herald (and there's no reason you shouldn't if you're going all Tzeentch).

 

So first, a 92% chance of casting and a 17% chance of dispelling.

 

Next, average 7 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 kill. This is the average per-unit outcome of each shooting phase. Their max average is 12-6-5- 2 kills vs MEq.

 

The obvious answer is to still take four units, but make them 20 each. ;)

 

14 shots, 7 hits, 6 wounds, 2 kills. Average double-sized unit. Max average is 24-12-10- 3 kills vs MEq.

 

 

 

Aw, that's depressing.

[Marshal Goderic]

In answer to the OP run them at minimum with one large one to hold objectives. I've run them a number of times at 18 strong (sacred #'s and all) and come to the conclusion that it is mainly a massive waste of points. Look at old horrors for a sec (only damage potential), 18" assault 3 S4 AP4, a 20 man squad vs a current 20 man squad which only gets at best 4D6 shots when, if supremely lucky, you get 24 on a good day, if you make the Psy test & if the opponent fails to disbelieve your bullets, then you have BS 3. An old 8 man squad of horrors did about the same damage and couldn't be denied. The problem is 136 points for the old squad and now ~195?ish for a mostly naked 18 man squad that dies faster and will rarely equal the 'max' damage potential.

 

I've not yet done it but I plan to take them in minimum squads and go for better powers. The primaris doesn't put out enough wounds at all even at max strength, adding a herald helps but only some.

 

Onto warpflame, "it's not that bad..."  sorry, gotta disagree, it is that bad, might be worse. I've had at one time, 2 units with 4+FNP that I gave them with warpflame... grrr... vs marines they will usually make the T test (I've not had an opponent fail yet [small # of games total so I know it'll eventually happen]) and they keep getting better FNP. If you play a C:CD Tz primary vs Plague Marines list... I would play just for the laughs but one might as well concede at the beggining of that matchup.

 

Hope that helps

[Iron Sage]

They're BS3, but Flickering Fire is S5 base, S6 if you take a Herald (and there's no reason you shouldn't if you're going all Tzeentch).

So first, a 92% chance of casting and a 17% chance of dispelling.

Next, average 7 shots, 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 kill. This is the average per-unit outcome of each shooting phase. Their max average is 12-6-5- 2 kills vs MEq.

The obvious answer is to still take four units, but make them 20 each.

14 shots, 7 hits, 6 wounds, 2 kills. Average double-sized unit. Max average is 24-12-10- 3 kills vs MEq.

Aw, that's depressing.

True enough, but I would again like to note that there is one other spell that become fairly interesting when you run them as a mere minimum squad, and that is your 50% chance of rolling Bolt of tzeentch. When playing MEQ or worse, TEQ, I would certainly prefer that beam ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Now, I've been re-reading Warpflame and I don't think it's nearly as bad as previously thought.

 

Agreed on how it works.  But consider the other ways your enemy can stack Warpflame, not just in your Shooting Phase.

 

You shoot a unit a unit with Horrors, kill a couple, grant them FnP.

 

Then then charge your Flamers (potentially other units, can't recal if other units get Warpflame as a special rule, sure there are some), suffer overwatch, and lose either a mini to that or CC.

 

And get +1 FnP at the end of thier Assault Phase.

 

Ready to be subjected to Warpflame *again* in either (or possibly both!) of your Shooting and Assault Phases.

 

Now, Warpflame won't be a common occurance in Assault Phases, but it's possible...

 

 

[EricBasser]

Are these results taking into account Prescience from Heralds? Re-rolling to hit, and 2s to wound T4 units isn't that bad. Yeah, giving out FnP isn't good. But, once again, against xenos they will do wonders. Even Str 6 can get into light av.

The smaller units are objective holders. If there are ruins in your deployment zone, place an objective there and sit horrors on top. Then proceed to go to ground when being shot at. As long as it doesn't ignore cover, you're getting 2+ cover and re-rolling 1s.

The larger unit just pumps out shots with the Herald. I like ML3 on him, and 1 Change disipline, 2 Divination disiplines. Alway taking Prescience, Flicker Flame, and what ever else I rolled. Usually, I switch results 1, 4, 5, 6 with Prescience. Misfortune and Forewarning can benefit Horrors.

Any sized unit can utilize Brotherhood of Sorcerers. Find LoS blocking terrain. Place all but one model behind the terrain. The one model can fire Flicker Flame, and in the enemy shooting phase, only one model is visiable/removeable if I'm understanding the rules correctly. Just added this because Daemons40k Blog had mentioned it. And I wanted to share it. So thanks goes out to Slaede for this one.

The champion upgrade on horrors doesn't seem worth it. Unless with Brotherhood of Sorcery makes Flicker Flame shots Precision Shots if coming from the champ, but further looking into this doesn't seem to work.

Icon and Instrument of Chaos I wouldn't bother with them unless attempting piggybacking with multiple units. Once the Burning Chariot gets FAQ'd, I can see using an Icon to bring it down to flame something.

Blasted Standard is something I'm not too sure about. It looks good for number of shots a full unit can put out, but the once a game and only str 4 doesn't seem too good.

A couple of things I'm trying with Horrors are synergy with allies. Chaos Sorcerers and Daemon Princes (Chaos Daemons too) have access to Biomancy and Enfeeble. Once a Marine unit is hit with Enfeeble, hits from Horrors at str 6 ignore their FnP. Prescience, if not on Horrors, will go to my Thousand Sons. (I know, I'm taking the worst units in both books and trying to polish a turd. I like a challenge though. ) Also, a LoC with Staff of Change can charge a "warpflamed" unit, and ignore FnP on T4. He'll be a good clean-up unit.

I think focusing fire on units will work, but will be a slow precess. I can see hitting the same unit with a squad of horrors and a burning chariot being good though.

Horrors do suffer from TEQ. With 2+ saves, they won't be as good. And if you give the unit FnP, it can be really bad. Most other troops have a way to deal with them, but horrors are lacking. Daemonettes can rend. Bloodletters champs can get ether blades/khorne weapons. They are built for CC. Give a horror champion a ether blade, and he still won't be doing much with it due to lack of combat stats.

Overall, I think they will preform well, if using them wisely. Don't fire at all different targets. Don't repeat firing more than two turns without a way to finish the squads off. Do focus fire. Do have a plan in effect.

[Iron Sage]

Now, I've been re-reading Warpflame and I don't think it's nearly as bad as previously thought.

Agreed on how it works. But consider the other ways your enemy can stack Warpflame, not just in your Shooting Phase.

You shoot a unit a unit with Horrors, kill a couple, grant them FnP.

Then then charge your Flamers (potentially other units, can't recal if other units get Warpflame as a special rule, sure there are some), suffer overwatch, and lose either a mini to that or CC.

And get +1 FnP at the end of thier Assault Phase.

Ready to be subjected to Warpflame *again* in either (or possibly both!) of your Shooting and Assault Phases.

Now, Warpflame won't be a common occurance in Assault Phases, but it's possible...

Yeah, because most players would really like to charge flamers with a damaged unit. Your example is....interesting to say the least since it depends upon all kinds of factors going against you in the first place. But yes, it is "possible" obviously.

Are these results taking into account Prescience from Heralds? Re-rolling to hit, and 2s to wound T4 units isn't that bad. Yeah, giving out FnP isn't good. But, once again, against xenos they will do wonders. Even Str 6 can get into light av.

The smaller units are objective holders. If there are ruins in your deployment zone, place an objective there and sit horrors on top. Then proceed to go to ground when being shot at. As long as it doesn't ignore cover, you're getting 2+ cover and re-rolling 1s.

The larger unit just pumps out shots with the Herald. I like ML3 on him, and 1 Change disipline, 2 Divination disiplines. Alway taking Prescience, Flicker Flame, and what ever else I rolled. Usually, I switch results 1, 4, 5, 6 with Prescience. Misfortune and Forewarning can benefit Horrors.

The champion upgrade on horrors doesn't seem worth it. Unless with Brotherhood of Sorcery makes Flicker Flame shots Precision Shots if coming from the champ, but further looking into this doesn't seem to work.

Icon and Instrument of Chaos I wouldn't bother with them unless attempting piggybacking with multiple units. Once the Burning Chariot gets FAQ'd, I can see using an Icon to bring it down to flame something.

Blasted Standard is something I'm not too sure about. It looks good for number of shots a full unit can put out, but the once a game and only str 4 doesn't seem too good.

A couple of things I'm trying with Horrors are synergy with allies. Chaos Sorcerers and Daemon Princes (Chaos Daemons too) have access to Biomancy and Enfeeble. Once a Marine unit is hit with Enfeeble, hits from Horrors at str 6 ignore their FnP. Prescience, if not on Horrors, will go to my Thousand Sons. (I know, I'm taking the worst units in both books and trying to polish a turd. I like a challenge though. ) Also, a LoC with Staff of Change can charge a "warpflamed" unit, and ignore FnP on T4. He'll be a good clean-up unit.

I think focusing fire on units will work, but will be a slow precess. I can see hitting the same unit with a squad of horrors and a burning chariot being good though.

Horrors do suffer from TEQ. With 2+ saves, they won't be as good. And if you give the unit FnP, it can be really bad. Most other troops have a way to deal with them, but horrors are lacking. Daemonettes can rend. Bloodletters champs can get ether blades/khorne weapons. They are built for CC. Give a horror champion a ether blade, and he still won't be doing much with it due to lack of combat stats.

Overall, I think they will preform well, if using them wisely. Don't fire at all different targets. Don't repeat firing more than two turns without a way to finish the squads off. Do focus fire. Do have a plan in effect.

You make a lot of sense, Eric.

[hornywingythingy]

Tbh, I'm considering using them as alternatives to plsguebearers, going to ground behind an aegis for 2+ cover, rerolling 1s, but only because I have no plaguebearers yet.

 

@seahawk, I can think of two reasons you'd not run heralds for them, 1) you want two greater demons(I'm considering this tbh) 2) you are taking them as allies, therefore only get 1 herald per HQ.

[Sception]

My numbers (admittedly off due to the wrong strength score - but not by much) did not take into account heralds.  I was responding to suggestions of multiple small squads using flickering fire, in which event I can't imagine they'd all be herald supported.

 

Throw a herald on, and you have to deal with psychic test, faction specific psychic defenses, and deny the witch just to use the power, after which, assuming you're still at full strength, you've got 4d6 shots (average 17), 10 to 11 hits with prescience re-rolls, 8 to 10 wounds with S6, 3 to 4 kills on average after saves, plus the herald itself can throw out another 2d6 shots themselves to push that to 4 to 5 wounds, again assuming all of your psychic powers succeed and none of them are shut down by your target's psychic defense.  Would take about two such units (two max units of horrors each with a herald) to have a reasonable chance of wiping out a marine squad before you give them a chance at warpflame bonuses.  And any sixes to hit from any of that mess would have precision strike, so at the very least you should be wiping out their special weapons and champion.

 

Perhaps not completely awful, but how many points did you drop for two maxed out units of horrors plus two heralds?  Not exactly super encouraging.

 

 

My point is that horrors and flamers and the like would be decidedly 'meh' to 'sub-meh' even if they weren't saddled with this arbitrary and terrible handicap on top of everything else.

[Captain Idaho]

Why couldn't you take 4 Heralds as a single slot as normal?

[Sception]

multiple heralds per slot is for primary detachment only.  If you're running them as allies, heralds take up a whole HQ slot each.  Yet more antisynergy when allying daemons with CSMs, since the daemon troops all kind of assume heralds to be functional, which prevents you from running allied greater daemons (or princes, but CSM princes are better anyway), and also prevents you from running both allied troop slots effectively.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Yeah, because most players would really like to charge flamers with a
damaged unit. Your example is....interesting to say the least since it
depends upon all kinds of factors going against you in the first place.
But yes, it is "possible" obviously.

 

In the last dex?  No.  I'd never charge them.

 

Now.  Yes.  Why not.  They're nerfed to AP4, I get full saves versus 1d3 hits per Flamer, and then get to cream them into oblivion in CC.

 

WS2, S4, A2, with no CC weapon does not make a good CC unit.  23 points per, Ld7 and Instability.

 

Well, CCing them is too good an opportunity to miss...

[Captain Idaho]

You'd think I'd have read that bit...

 

Primary detachment/pure Chaos Daemons could enjoy a pair of 20 strong Horror squads with Herald in each... A firm core to add assault elements to the army to suck attention.

[EricBasser]

I look at it like this. This is how I'm running them in a Ahriman list. As allies (Daemons) I'll take two squads of horrors. One full size to lay down fire support, buffing CSM. One min size for home field scoring. Herald goes with full size.

 

Ahriman can infiltrate the herald with horrors and thousand sons on good rolls. I'm running Ahriman and another ML3 Sorcerer. Whichever one gets enfeeble goes with thousand sons. Seems like a good midfield combo. Adds numbers to a rather elitist army. I also have 20 cultiats at home field manning a quad-gun ADL. Thats what I'm loving about the Daemons codex. It fills out a CSM list with just troops nicely. Then for now, running a Burning Chariot. Between that, a Heldrake, Burning Brand, and Thousand Sons, I'm all out power armor hate.

 

I believe horrors are better objective sitters than plague bearers due to their re-rolling 1s.

[Iron Sage]

 

Yeah, because most players would really like to charge flamers with a

damaged unit. Your example is....interesting to say the least since it

depends upon all kinds of factors going against you in the first place.

But yes, it is "possible" obviously.

 

In the last dex?  No.  I'd never charge them.

 

Now.  Yes.  Why not.  They're nerfed to AP4, I get full saves versus 1d3 hits per Flamer, and then get to cream them into oblivion in CC.

 

WS2, S4, A2, with no CC weapon does not make a good CC unit.  23 points per, Ld7 and Instability.

 

Well, CCing them is too good an opportunity to miss...

Heh, first of all. Your example stipulates that a horror unit has damaged (but of course, not too badly) an enemy unit givining it FNP. That enemy unit just happens to be in assault range of a unit of flamers (again, how often does this happen in conjunction with the rest???), and you also happen to reach it without taking massive damage from flamer overwatch (your a fool to say the least if you think it is in anyway safe to charge AP4 flamers with MEQ).

I am some what amazed that you dont yourself see that your example is rather bad and that it stipulates way, way too many events to go against one player.

Big unit of TDAs? Sure, then your example works (again, if they can reach the flamers which they really shouldn`t do and you damn well know it), but it will be 1 in 100 games or so...

[Gentlemanloser]

and you also happen to reach it without taking massive damage from

flamer overwatch (your a fool to say the least if you think it is in

anyway safe to charge AP4 flamers with MEQ)

 

Chance to wound: 0.5

Chance for unsaved Wound: 0.333~

Chance to fail 6+ FnP: 0.833~

 

Chance to kill a Marine to overwatch: 0.139

 

Number of Flamer hits required to kill a single marine on average due to Overwatch: 7 (being generous with rounding)

 

9 Flamers will score on average 18 hits to overwatch and kill 2.5 Marines.

 

3 Will score 6 hits and kill none.

 

I'm in the mood for a little more number crunching.  Let's set it in the Daemon's favour, and use 10 Horrors (90 points) and 9 Flamers (207) versus 10 Strikes (200).

 

The Flamers moved up to flame something near the Strikes.  The Horrors Shot FFoT with WC1 for 7 hits.

 

Let's assume that the Daemon Player nulifies The Aegis (Tzeentch Daemon), and Deny doesn't work.

 

BS3 gives 3.5 hits.  S5 gives 2.33 Wounds.  Full Save gives 1.5 Dead.

 

Let's be generous and round that to 2, and let the Strikes pass their Toughness Test.

 

GK turn, the 8 GK shoot the 9 Flamers.

 

16 shots equal 10.67 hits, 5.34 wounds, 3.56 unsaved wounds.  Lets round up again for ease.  2 Dead Flamers.

 

The GK Charge.  The remaining 7 Flamers get 14 overwatch hits, 7 wounds and kill a GK.

 

In return, the 7 GK have 15 attacks, and go before the Flamers who are I1 (Psyk-outs).  They land 10 hits, cause 5 wounds and deal 3.33 unsaved wounds.

 

Let's be harsh on the GK and round down to 3 wounds *and* have the Force Weapons fail to activate.  There are now 6 Flamers (1 with one wound).

 

At I1, the Flamers get 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds.  This causes 1 unsaved wound, 0.833 after FnP.

 

Let's be generous to the Daemons and say they kill a Strike.

 

They have now lost the CC by 2 wounds and need to take a Daemonic Instability test on a modified Ld of 5.

 

(And all this hasn't taken the GK PE:Daemons into account either)

 

So be foolish to charge a full Squad of 9 Flamers with MEQ?  No.

[Iron Sage]

and you also happen to reach it without taking massive damage from

flamer overwatch (your a fool to say the least if you think it is in

anyway safe to charge AP4 flamers with MEQ)

Chance to wound: 0.5

Chance for unsaved Wound: 0.333~

Chance to fail 6+ FnP: 0.833~

Chance to kill a Marine to overwatch: 0.139

Number of Flamer hits required to kill a single marine on average due to Overwatch: 7 (being generous with rounding)

9 Flamers will score on average 18 hits to overwatch and kill 2.5 Marines.

3 Will score 6 hits and kill none.

I'm in the mood for a little more number crunching. Let's set it in the Daemon's favour, and use 10 Horrors (90 points) and 9 Flamers (207) versus 10 Strikes (200).

The Flamers moved up to flame something near the Strikes. The Horrors Shot FFoT with WC1 for 7 hits.

Let's assume that the Daemon Player nulifies The Aegis (Tzeentch Daemon), and Deny doesn't work.

BS3 gives 3.5 hits. S5 gives 2.33 Wounds. Full Save gives 1.5 Dead.

Let's be generous and round that to 2, and let the Strikes pass their Toughness Test.

GK turn, the 8 GK shoot the 9 Flamers.

16 shots equal 10.67 hits, 5.34 wounds, 3.56 unsaved wounds. Lets round up again for ease. 2 Dead Flamers.

The GK Charge. The remaining 7 Flamers get 14 overwatch hits, 7 wounds and kill a GK.

In return, the 7 GK have 15 attacks, and go before the Flamers who are I1 (Psyk-outs). They land 10 hits, cause 5 wounds and deal 3.33 unsaved wounds.

Let's be harsh on the GK and round down to 3 wounds *and* have the Force Weapons fail to activate. There are now 6 Flamers (1 with one wound).

At I1, the Flamers get 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds. This causes 1 unsaved wound, 0.833 after FnP.

Let's be generous to the Daemons and say they kill a Strike.

They have now lost the CC by 2 wounds and need to take a Daemonic Instability test on a modified Ld of 5.

(And all this hasn't taken the GK PE:Daemons into account either)

So be foolish to charge a full Squad of 9 Flamers with MEQ? No.

:wallbash::wallbash:

If I did not read this I would not have thought it possible.So much text, so little information.

I`ll repeat. Your example is an extremly bad one since it stipulates that A) Horrors have shot at a unit, not damaging it badly, but givning that unit +fnp The unit that has been shot, then some how manages to assault a unit of flamers that just happens to be located within asault range of a (not very likely) Grey Knights unit from the imbalanced and notoriously overpowered Ward dex (again, not likely to happen, and I repeat again sice you obviously need it,it is particularly unlikely in CONJUNCTION WITH THE REST OF YOUR STIPULATIONS) succeeding (of course according to you) on its assault roll. Grey Knights then assaults flamers and are fine, still reaching assault, in addition to passing a second T test.

Convenient indeed. Convenient and bloody unlikely (unless you play a sealpup, in which case you pretty much auto win with a Ward dex anyway...)

Sure, it is theoretically possible. Likely? Not at all...

Now, what does this mean? It just means that you used a particularly bad example, nothing else.