Horrors, and how to run them!

[Gentlemanloser]

The maths is sound.  If you dislike the GK unit used, sub them for SB Wolfguard for all I care (Who will perform better in CC versus the GK example above).

 

Work it out yourself.

 

The example was *heavily* in favour of the Daemons, It's shocking you can't see that.

 

More points than the GK.  Sub optimal GK loadout (no Psycannons, no Hammers).  No PE:Daemons used.  Horrors Pass thier Psychic Test, Deny Fails.  Force Weapons Fail.

 

The list goes on.

 

If you want to redo it in a fairer maner, feel free.

 

You'll notice it will be *far* worse for the Daemons...

 

 

Your example is an extremly bad one since it stipulates that A) Horrors
have shot at a unit, not damaging it badly, but givning that unit +fnp

 

Point out the flaw with the maths please.

 

A unit of 10 Horrors will WC1 FFoT for an average of 7 attacks.

 

With a BS3 this is 3.5 hits.

 

Facing T4 this is 2.33 wounds.

 

Facing 3+ Save this is 0.777 unsaved casualties.

 

Edit:

 

LoL I said 1.5 dead in the example. (That's actually the amount saved...)

 

It's even worse for the Daemons...

 

/sigh

[Gentlemanloser]

Apologies if this shouldn't be it's own post, the last one was getting a bit long. Feel free to merge/delete it if necessary.

I'll even throw in the SW example (That the SW are in range of assaulting the Flamers is a given, this is an example of why it's not foolish to charge Flamers with MEQ.) I'll bold the assumptions in favour of the Daemons.

9 Flamers + 10 Horrors (297 points) versus 10 Wolfguard with Storm Bolters (210 points) Points used in favour of Daemons, unoptimised WG loadout

Horror Shooting: 7 shots, 3.5 hits, 2.33 wounds, 0.777 unsaved. Round up to 1 dead WG Round up in Favour of Daemons, Psychic Test passed in Favour of the Daemons, Deny Failed in Favour of the Daemons
WG pass thier T test in favour of the WG

WG Shooting: 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 4 unsaved wounds. 2 Dead Flamers.

Flamer Overwatch: 7 Flamers, 14 hits, 7 wounds, 1 Dead WG.

CC attacks are simultanious

WG: 24 attacks, 16 hits, 8 wounds, 5.33 unsaved. Round down to 5 wounds rounding in favour of Daemons
Flamers: 14 attacks, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds, 1.17 unsaved, 0.975 casulaties after 6+ FnP. Round up to 1 rounding in favour of Daemons

(Again we'll favour the WG and have them pass thier T test)

Flamers (5 left, 1 with 1 wound) lose the Fight Sub Phase by 4 and take an Instability Test on a Ld of 3...

There are 8 WG left, who now have a 5+ FnP.

 

The only part of this weighed in favour of the WG was pasing thier T test.  Everything else was in favour of the Daemons.

 

(Yes, I ignored the T Daemon reroll failed saves of 1, and Soulblaze.  They make little difference, but feel free to amend this to include them if you want)

[Romulas]

Hey guys,

 

I've been playing mono Tzeentch for a while now, they started off as a side project for my CSM's and quickly developed into a force on their own. I'm loving the new book, and although I'm not entirely sure on how much I'll compete with them, I love my Horrors too!

 

So I was wondering about unit size. I have 50 Horrors and don't know whether to make a couple of larger units and a couple of smaller units, or 5 units of 10. 

 

In units of ten I could kits out a herald for four of them and give him the tzeentch primaris and one divination to boost the units shooting quite a bit, or I could run them pretty much naked. With a herald a unit of ten comes to a little over 200 points, without a little over 100. So I was wondering how everyone else (all 6 of the remaining people on the planet that are prepared to run horrors that is :D ) is planning to run them?

 

Thanks,

 

James.

Hi James,

 

The most effective is to go all out with twenty in the squad and attach a herald. Give both the squad and the herald the base (and best) Tzeench spell, if you have the points to make the herald a better psyker, grab divination spells. This will let the horrors cast the flames with three warp points, and the herald can do the same or just help the squad with divination. There may also be a locus to help as well. (codex not here at the moment)

 

This is of course quite points expensive if going all Tzeench probably done best with three to four squads.

 

How to run them? They will be the shooty backbone but will require support either from babysitting beats of Nurgle to daemonettes running interference. Or if you stay in Tzeench's domain.... Not sure as I mainly used a mixed bag aproch favoring Slaanesh, but there are two squads of horrors in my line up, at least until I can afford to get two or three grinders....

 

Hope this helps,

[Sixestohit]

Thanks, that helps a lot.

 

I think I might have opened the warpflame bag in the thread accidentally, so talking about the Horrors again is nice :D

 

I was just thinking before, if viewed like this:

 

A 90 point psyker, with 10 wounds, a decent invulnerable save, the ability to choose from 10 different positions for los purposes. Then a base unit is not that terrible :)

 

I do like your idea of very large squads, particularly with the locus and divi herald in there. I was thinking a level 2 herald with the locus, primaris Tzeentch and primaris divi then going for the lots of str6 rerolling misses approach myself. I just wonder that as a Tzeentch only player I'll be selling myself short by doing so. I could add more Horrors, but really feel that 50 is about as much as my sanity to build and paint can take :D

 

James.

[Sception]

in the horrors + flamers example, why aren't the flamers flaming the target unit?  Even if they do, I doubt it will look nice for them, but dividing your fire is always bad, and the scenario only seems to demonstrate that something that is always bad remains bad for tzeentch daemons.  This is... not a huge shock.  Also, why are the flamers within assault range of a unit they're not shooting?  As a jump unit, they should have the maneuverability to avoid that kind of situation.

 

Shooting units can concentrate their firepower, to bring more points to bear on  a target unit.  It's one of the many advantages of shooting units.  It's not unreasonable to give the tzeentch daemon side two or even three units against a target unit of marines of whatever type.

 

Even so, the marines will still likely come out ahead, with fnp, and free to move, pistol, and assault the flamers in the following turn.  I'm not arguing that the tzeentch daemons are god, I don't like them.  But a scenario in which they deny their fire and voluntarily put themselves within charge range of units they don't need to be that close to is kind of silly.

[Styrbjörn]

A 90 point psyker, with 10 wounds, a decent invulnerable save, the ability to choose from 10 different positions for los purposes. Then a base unit is not that terrible :)

 

Not a bad way to think of them. But when in small groups, the bolt seams interesting. Could be used for sniping and a good chance to pen vehicles. As a bonus vehicles can't T tests.

[Gentlemanloser]

Mal, assume the Flamers shot at and wiped out another Squad near to the one in question.  Maybe the other target was on an object, or already near destroyed.

 

It's not like Flamers can mystically never be in assault range.  They only have Template weapons. ;)

 

It's purely an example of how it's not folly to charge a unit of Flamers (The horrors were there for two reasons.  To show how bad they are, and to give free FnP.  Swap them out and just have the Flamers attack if you want).  And let's be honest who i thier right mind is ever going to run a full 9 Flamer unit with this dex?

[Captain Idaho]

But your example assumed the Flamers shot and wiped out a different squad? That's a pretty good result isn't it? Doesn't that also mean the Horrors are shooting a unit on their own and not focus firing with other units?

 

Your example was flawed but your point remains valid; if you have an intact assault unit it is not unreasonable to charge Flamers.

 

(I'd also like to point out the problem with your math is there is no such thing as an average roll or a fraction as a result)

[Sception]

Mal, assume the Flamers shot at and wiped out another Squad near to the one in question. Maybe the other target was on an object, or already near destroyed.

It's not like Flamers can mystically never be in assault range. They only have Template weapons.

It's purely an example of how it's not folly to charge a unit of Flamers (The horrors were there for two reasons. To show how bad they are, and to give free FnP. Swap them out and just have the Flamers attack if you want). And let's be honest who i thier right mind is ever going to run a full 9 Flamer unit with this dex?

So you're running assumption is that the flamers already wiped out an entire squad on their own? I'm sorry, I thought we were establishing them as bad here.

I agree horrors and flamers are bad, but the situation posited is just weird. First you assume the flamers are taking out whole units on their own - which is odd for a unit we both agree is meh. Then you're assuming that the flamers, a jump unit, will be unable to get within flame range of one target without being within assault range of another. And then you're assuming that the daemon player is only dedicating a single unit of horrors to trying to get rid of the unit threatening their flamers. I just seems odd.

Neither horrors nor flamers are good units. Neither would be good even without warpflame. And I agree that the flamers are so vulnerable in melee that their overwatch is hardly any kind of deterent at all. Again, not arguing that these things are good, just the scenario you're using to try to illustrate that seems all sorts of odd.

[Captain Idaho]

Horrors are quite cheap for what you get though. Especially when you consider other units will be threatening opponents and in need of being targeted, thus taking some heat off the Pinkies.

 

Can't really say I like Flamers. I guess they're good against hordes or if you can get a bunch of of them to flame the same target.

[Gentlemanloser]

But your example assumed the Flamers shot and wiped out a different squad? That's a pretty good result isn't it? Doesn't that also mean the Horrors are shooting a unit on their own and not focus firing with other units?

So you're running assumption is that the flamers already wiped out an entire squad on their own? I'm sorry, I thought we were establishing them as bad here.

Nah, doesn't have to be on thier own, and doesn't make them good. If you really want justifications for the situations, the unit the Flamers killed could have been;

 

Already reduced to 1 man

Had had the 5 other Horror Units already shooting them

Be 'weaker' units, like allied IG/Elder/Henchmen, so fodder to the Flamers

The Flamers could have somehow ringed them to allow all 9 to template an entire 10 man unit (45 wounds would kill 15 marines after saves...)

 

Whatever the situation was. It *really* doesn't matter.

just the scenario you're using to try to illustrate that seems all sorts of odd.

I was stacking it in the Daemons favour. You can make it fairer (Horrors have a 0.833 * 0.833 or 0.7 chance to actually cast FFoT on an enemy with 6+ Deny anyway), equal out the points, add in other units (Add a Herald for the Horrors, add a Rune Priest for the Wolfguard).

 

And it will still come out badly for the Daemons.

 

Bottom line;

 

Warpflame *can* be stacked in more phases than just the Daemon's shooting Phase.

Overwatch isn't going to stop MEQ from assaulting Flamers.

 

Claiming otherwise is just being willfully blind to the mechanics of 40k.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think we'll see many Flamers though. so without them there won't be instances of Warpflame being used outside of shooting.

 

Though the eternal flames do force a test each phase, which can be disastrous for some units and the tough ones will get a bonus more often. Unless I'm misremembered.

[Gentlemanloser]

I think there's other units that can get Warpflame as a Special rule, but I can't recall off hand.

 

Maybe the Chariot?

 

If not, well, it's just another nail in the coffin for Flamers.  The only unit your opponent can use to buff themselves with FnP in the Assault Phase.

[Captain Idaho]

Screamers don't look too shabby at least.

 

Poor old Flamers... That could be 40K karma for just how obnoxious they were until recently.

[Sixestohit]

I'll still be using flamers. I don't know if anyone mentioned already, but the hilarity of the nerf got me thinking:

Forgetting warpflame and its clunkiness for now (It's not the giving away fnp that I hate, it's just how weird the mechanics of the rule is)

Against non meq they became better wounding most xenos on 3s now instead of 4s. Most of the time allowing no armour save as xenos saves are lower.

Vs meq they still wound on 4s but they get their armour saves.

Isn't it odd that when we consider something nerfed, we mean nerfed vs meq (which is the most faced army I suppose so fair enough). I find it more odd that GW managed to make something better vs most non meq and nerfed against meq. That takes some thought eh!

I'm willing to bet most eldar, deldar, guard and tau players still find them just as obnoxious, if not more so.

James.

[Gentlemanloser]

They no longer Glance Xenos vehicles to death.

 

But doesn't everything kill Xenos obnoxiously.  I mean, even the common Bolter wounds on 3's and doesn't give a save to most Xenos! :P

[Sixestohit]

Aye. Don't get me wrong, I play Blood Angels and CSM too, so I like killing Xenos. I hate Xenos so much I had to play demons as my non power armour army just because they aren't Xenos. :D

But seriously, it just seems sad that Xenos get hit so hard. I want Xenos to be powerful so my marines can feel better about themselves after drubbing them :)

James.

[Smurfalypse]

lol this whole thread made my brain bleed. . .

 

However there was a piece of information I heard someone mention and was curious. If a unit of Horrors with a squad leader shoots their little powers at someone, everything is considered a precision strike? 

 

PS. Try out Flamers before you talk about how bad they are, have used them and they actually perform well for themselves.

[EricBasser]

I had mentioned about precision shots, but I'm unsure if that is legal. If it is, horrors are awesome snipers. If not, the Herald still gets 2-3d6 shots. I asked in a another forum, but didn't get too much of a response. One said that the power is coming from the unit as a whole. And one model is just used for LoS and measuring.

 

I'm happy with this thread. Would like to see one for each FoC, then compile it into a tactica.

[*Furyou Miko]

Seems legit to me. The Iridecent Horror is the one aiming everything after all.