Mephiston Running into Brick Walls?

[Faithwing]

New Blood Angel here, ready to join the host!

 

After a long time of scrambling around between different Space Marines, only to eventually sell them off, I've finally settled on Blood Angels. Like their style, mesh well with my Sisters.

 

I love Mephiston, but my meta is pretty Terminator heavy. Which is lame for Mephiston's new sword. I haven't played with the Angels yet, but Saint Celestine runs into the same problem with my Sisters. Her sword is also AP 3, and it's super bunk to rely on my opponent's Chaos Lord with Axe/Termie setup rolling 1's on Armor saves to get anything done in melee.

 

With Sisters, it's not too big a deal, as the Saint is cheap, and basically runs interference/provides a tough Warlord point to get.

 

But with my blossoming Blood Angels, it's tough to pay 250 pts for a guy who must rely on 2+ enemies to roll 1's in order to do what his pts imply he's good at.

 

That being said, I still want to run him, and I've looked at Biomancy, and Divination Power swaps, to maybe help him out. Also 2+ Vindicators to erase the Termies, etc.

 

I'm sure you guys have run into this problem, and have probably found some better solutions than me in this Terminator/Plasma world we live in.

 

How do you help the Lord of Death live up to his name? (Against, Grey Knights, Chaos Marines, and Imperial Fists).

 

Thanks for the help, brothers!

[Morticon]

Faithwing, the idea or theory behind this is to pick your battles.  Both Mephy and the Saint have movement enough to avoid HQs with 2+ saves.  If you're fighting HQ vs HQ you're playing into your enemy hands and its becomes an issue of strategy.

 

If your opponents are rocking true and full Death Wing style- then you're in for a tough time - there's not much you can do beside keep mephy back and charge him into weakened units with other supporting units. In the event your opponent has other stuff too...then focus on that.  Check out my 2500 Veteran's playtest batrep (maybe 1 page back or so). I played against an army with 20 or 25 terms.

 

If your opponent has a counter element and sets it up, and you take the bait with mephy then, again, you're playing into his hands. See which units are where and time your shooting and your charges. Go for feints and fakes - by movin in one direction with the bulk of your force, and then suddenly shifting to another direction- classic bait and switch. 

[knife&fork]

Mephstion is also good at killing tanks and monstrous creatures with his high I and S forcewepaon.

 

Things like battle cannons and demolisher cannons that will slaughter your troops are a minimal threat to him and most MCs have a 3+ save..  

[Captain Idaho]

I wouldn't recommend taking Biomancy with him; you need to be fast moving to get the most out of him, so don't exchange your powers. Otherwise he'll slowly march across the table and take plasma long shots from a Tactical squad or equivalent, and be vulnerable to a counter charge from a 2+ save unit in a Land Raider or something.

[Faithwing]

Thanks, Morticon. That being said, do you feel comfortable paying that many points for an HQ that kinda scavenges? Also, I read a lot of players keeping Priests and/or Assault Squads nearby for the FNP bubble/cover save. In everyone's experience, is this a must?

 

I've played against Mephiston plenty, and I do understand the fear factor he brings. Every game he was in, he has terrified all of us - and you can't put a point cost on that. However, Tyranids, Tau, and my Sisters can't field Termies, so we had reason to fear him. Would he strike a similar level of fear into Termie players, you think?

 

knife&fork,

That's a good point about the vehicle thing. I'd never really thought of that (duh). I'm pretty nooby at the assault, as the only time I do it is with the Saint, and the occassional Battle Conclave(Crusaders & DCA's), and neither of them get sent toward vehicles, so that never occurred. But doubling as AT definitely makes his point value look lower in my eyes.

 

The only monstrous creatures that pop up anymore these days in my hood are Daemon Princes, and soon, a Dreadknight. Both of which I think would destroy Mephiston without much trouble.

 

I'm not trying to sound negative, I love him, and WILL run him. I'm just trying to make sure his points are not wasted by me being dumb with him when I do run him.

 

Thanks again for the replies!

[Israfel]

You'll do fine as long a you remember that despite his impressive statline he lacks in the equipment department thus he is not a hammer unit.  I wouldn't exactly call him a scalpel either he is a spear to be trusted to the exposed parts of your opponent.  If you make the right target choices with him, he will rip them off. Do not over commit him, aim for vehicles, fortifications and non 2+ non horde troops and you will do fine ;) 

[Xenith]

You want to wait for your opponent to commit his expensive units, then send Mephy after the troops choices to clean house. If your opponent keeps his terms back in his deployment to deal with Meph, then you dominate the rest of the board.

 

Have him hug cover, keep casting, and never get into combat with 2+ saves.

[Leonaides]

Charge a termie unit with a character or sergeant with a Power Sword (so AP3), challenge, lock that unit till he kills it (you're both saving on a 2+, you're hitting first, harder and probably more often and you only need to get lucky once, while he needs to get through 5 times).

 

250 pts that can shut down your opponents death-star for 2+ turns and potentially take out his warlord? Bargain at twice the price.

[Captain Idaho]

...until your opponent refuses the challenge and hits you with 4 S8, AP2 attacks.

[Jolemai]

Provided he passes his psychic test for Sword and becomes strength 10, then surely a brick wall is no problem for him?

[Jolemai]

As for a more helpful reply, I can only echo what others have said. If you have to fight 2+ armour saves send him in supported with a squad or two and remember to fire his plasma pistol! Weight of attacks will bring down 2+ saves eventually so as long as he is supported he should be fine...

[Morticon]

Thanks, Morticon. That being said, do you feel comfortable paying that many points for an HQ that kinda scavenges? Also, I read a lot of players keeping Priests and/or Assault Squads nearby for the FNP bubble/cover save. In everyone's experience, is this a must?

 

Very definitely worth the points. Because for every 1 game he needs to "scavenge" he will have 3 games where hes a necessity.  There are too many armies and too many builds where he is the answer to the majority of your problems or a huge tactical asset.  As for the priest nearby, i dont feel its a necessity in anyway, but it is really helpful. It essentially and statistically means Mephy becomes W6 .or even 6.5

[tomjoad]

 

Thanks, Morticon. That being said, do you feel comfortable paying that many points for an HQ that kinda scavenges? Also, I read a lot of players keeping Priests and/or Assault Squads nearby for the FNP bubble/cover save. In everyone's experience, is this a must?

 

Very definitely worth the points. Because for every 1 game he needs to "scavenge" he will have 3 games where hes a necessity.  There are too many armies and too many builds where he is the answer to the majority of your problems or a huge tactical asset.  As for the priest nearby, i dont feel its a necessity in anyway, but it is really helpful. It essentially and statistically means Mephy becomes W6 .or even 6.5

 

 

In my experience, what Blood Angels lack is bodies. Mephiston is the exact opposite of the answer to that. You may argue that his presence allows our scoring models to stay alive, but something like a Vindicator, two regular librarians, or any number of things can offer what Mephiston does for many fewer points. Plus, facing Eldar, Tyranids or Space Wolves can bring all Mehpy's advantages to a halt. Then he's just some dope moving 6" and hoping not to get force weaponed, or stuck in with unending gaunts, or plasma gunned to pieces.

[Ushtarador]

But on the other hand, what would you rather have to e.g. deal with a 10man unit of chaos bikers or a pack of grey hunters than mephi? There are so many things an ASM squad or 2 libbis can't deal with, but that will get absolutely hardcountered by him.

Also, only eldar have a table-wide means to shut down wings, you still get to use your powers 40% of the time, and even without S10 or force weapon Mephi's statline is impressive.

[Captain Death Crunch]

Echoing other comments, take him to take out tanks and similar targets, while avoiding TEQ squads. Keep him near a blob of Assault models and Sanguinary Priest(s) to give him support and FnP. Why not keep a priest near him? He can't be instant killed by any normal weapons, so he can take FnP after being hit by melta, plasma, lascannons, and even demolisher cannons! Sanguinary Priests are already a must have, so why not use them to make Mephiston even tougher?

[Zynk Kaladin]

In my experience, what Blood Angels lack is bodies. Mephiston is the exact opposite of the answer to that. You may argue that his presence allows our scoring models to stay alive, but something like a Vindicator, two regular librarians, or any number of things can offer what Mephiston does for many fewer points. Plus, facing Eldar, Tyranids or Space Wolves can bring all Mehpy's advantages to a halt. Then he's just some dope moving 6" and hoping not to get force weaponed, or stuck in with unending gaunts, or plasma gunned to pieces.

 

Hmm, my personal experience has been the opposite.  First of all, having Meph usually denies or makes your opponent struggle for a warlord kill.  Second, his stat-line and a synergistic list make him much more flexible.  Third, he's easy to hide in a blob of assault marines, giving a T6 5W model a coversave and FNP with the nearby priest.  You've only named 3 lists that can counter Mephiston's movement, but I can easily modify my meph tactics if I were to face them.

 

For example, if I were to face someone who could easily deny Wings of Sanguinius, I'd put Mephy in a raven.  He'd go exactly where I want him later in the

game, regardless of WoS denial.  Heck, you don't even need psychic abilities against Eldar.  A lot of S6 attacks is still nothing to sneeze at, especially with assault marine support.  Wolves?  He eats Grey Hunters for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  Nids?  Just call him MC Hunter.

 

Fielding vindicators almost requires you to purchase more than one to be very effective, which also gets expensive.  Dual librarians are good overall, but Mephy will outclass them in lists that aren't Eldar, 'Nids, or Wovles and match them in lists that are.

[Brother Maikel]

I wouldn't worry about lists with only one or two units of TDA, since Mephy should be able to out-maneuver their hard 2+ shell to get to any squishy backfield units (including anything with AV) without much of a problem.  Against pure Death- or Draigo-wing I'd swap powers, with first roll on Div, keeping Misfortune if you roll it or swapping for Prescience if you don't, then probably take the second roll on Telepathy, since Psychic Shriek is pretty good vs TDA.

[Remmy]

Against a heavy 2+ meta (in lists where you are facing 15 or more models with 2+ armor saves) Mephiston will not be a good choice unless you can successfully harass troops or vehicles with him.

 

Against 10 or fewer terminators type models Meph is usually a strong pick.  Basic maneuvering and strategy to avoid his 2+ units will be needed, but is usually do-able.  If you still find difficulty I reccomend swapping him out for a simpler but still points effective HQ (Divination libby w/ pack).

 

I regularly face terminator heavy deathwing played by my current gaming group.  In these instances I almost always opt for a divination libby over mephiston.

[Faithwing]

Wow! Awesome feedback! Thanks for all the replies.

 

This thread has really helped to put things into perspective with utilizing Mephiston.

 

I have a few Heavy Support questions, and general questions for future purchases, but I'll put up another thread for that.

 

Now, to build the army up, and terrorize some peeps!

 

Thanks again!

[SamaNagol]

It's really helpful to know the numbers. Mathhammering is very useful for Mephiston. Certain instances he can wade in to 2+ units. Some times it's not advisable.

 

If you are facing Terminator heavy opponents, for example, it can be very useful to know the 'tipping point' where it will be worth your while to send him in to the unit without getting smashed to pieces.