Building a Solid Heavy Support Base

[Faithwing]

Hey, all!

 

I got great info on the Mephiston topic, so I thought we could delve into something else - Heavy Support.

 

The choices that jump out to me are the Vindicator, and the Stormraven.

 

I will pick up a Stormraven eventually, but my meta isn't too Flyer-happy, so it's not a huge priority.

 

The Lucifer engines make that Vindicator super mean, but I know you must take more than one of them to really get anything done. That being said, should i pick up 2, or 3? Is running 3 realistic points-wise? Keep in mind that the Stormraven isn't a must have/auto-include in my meta... yet.

 

The big one I'd like to tackle here is Devastators. Yeah, we don't do them as well as Space Wolves, but who does? I like them, as I use a lot of Retributor squads with my Sisters, and even when they don't rend, 12 S 5 shots is pretty nice. Is a Heavy Bolter load-out just out of the question? The Missile Launchers look good too.

 

The general feel I get from this force is to get dakka where ever you can(Baal Pred in FA), because you likely aren't going to have it considering you'd probably want to core up with jumpers, priests, and other pricey options, which aren't putting out a rapid fire amount shots every turn. Of course, you don't have to play them like that, but I'd like to, and I feel it would be strange not to utilize their distinctions from the other Chapters.

 

Sorry for all the noob questions, I have been playing for 1 year, and have a decent amount of games under my belt, it's just always been with Sisters. Blood Angels seem like a pretty far departure from their army list, and playstyle. Blood Angels are expensive, assaulty, and very mobile. They don't put too many models on the field, which all of those qualities are pretty opposite from my SIsters.

 

Thanks for hearing me out again!

 

Looking forward to the Host's replies.

[daveclark890]

I only have jumpers in my army, it was built as a DoA list for 5th and I have only made some small tweaks for 6th.

 

I do like the use of long fangs in my wolf army and to replicate as much as possible I have on occasion used a 10 man dev squad and split the weapons into 2 combat squads, this gives me 2 or 3 ablative wounds per squad and the option to take down 2 different types of target by using 4 missiles in the 10 man squad.

[knife&fork]

Jumpers and priests are a trap. They might be distinctly BA but in this edition they are a huge points sink and they never pay off in relation to their costs. 

 

BA overall are really lacking in the troops department, just so you know. Are you looking to start an entire new army from scratch or would you mind keeping your SoB as allies? 

[Faithwing]

knife&fork,

 

I'm definitely starting a new Blood Angels army, but I'm also keeping my SoB. So I could use them as allies, and vise versa. The troops department looks okay, like vanilla Marines, only we get another choice in the Assault Marines (not counting the DC units). All are pricey though.

 

What heavy support do you find effective/complimentary to BA's?

 

daveclark,

 

How is the DoA thing working for you in 6th? What kind of tweaks did you have to make? You go the missile launcher route with the Devs most of the time?

 

Thanks for the input.

[Jolemai]

Generally units work best when spammed or at the very least, in pairs. Whilst three Vindicators would be fun, two is a fine number to take the the field and allows you to bring that Storm Raven or that Devastator Squad - but deciding on the latter will depend on what type of army you want to field.

 

One thing to think about is that Vindicators can be fragile due to their exposed side armour. This can be mitigated by flanking them with Baals or with Razors and it *may* be worth investing in a Furioso Librarian with Wings and Shield to give them that extra bit of support. Of course this is now starting to look like a heavy mechanised force...

 

It is my opinion that Devastators are best suited for "hybrid" forces as they wont be cut adrift from everything else. While the exact squad number is debatable amongst many Blood Angel players (i.e five or ten man for the ablative wounds) it does, of course, depend on what you want to do with them. On example is taking a ten man squad, putting the sergeant with a Lascannon for the BS5 shot and then placing three Missile Launchers or Plasma Cannons (or other) into the other combat squad. Ideally combat squads should complement each other. While some swear by the Heavy Bolter approach, this can be done more efficiently by a squad of Land Speeders. Another noteworthy point is that Devastators can take a Razorback meaning with a ten man squad you can shoot three separate targets from that one force organisation slot.

 

Just my 2 pence worth.

[knife&fork]

What style of army you want to run has a lot to do with the units best suited to take in your HS slots. Personally I favor the aggressive approach, so vindicators have never looked that appealing to me. Might sound counter intuitive but I don't want those big nasty blasts anywhere near my own units.

 

For that reason I like HS predators best, in the autocannon + lascannons config. No scatter to worry about, they have great range with 12" move and 48" guns, very likely effective from turn one even if there's nightfight and unlike the vindicator they don't have to stick their neck out to fire. You can keep your distance the entire game and not have to get in close to fire. Easy to keep that AV13 in the right direction and a lot less anti AV fire to worry about outside of 24".

A pair is good but 3 seems like too many, specially if you want to add a raven later. 

 

I generally don't like our slow HS units like rifleman dreads and dev squads camping the deployment zone, although I've been experimenting with podded dev squads lately. You lose one turn of fire but gain flexible deployment and the ability to go for late game line breaker VP if you have them somewhere midfield. You can also bring a character with them and nobody likes 4 multi meltas suddenly appearing in the middle of things. 

 

If I ran sisters as allies I'd take the HB retributors, they are a steal with the potential rending while costing less than two MM attack bikes. With points to spare I'd buff them with some ablative sisters, normal boltguns with rending are good too! I've seen them wreck flyers and kill MCs. Nice unit to man a flak cannon if you buy a defense line.

[Captain Death Crunch]

Jumpers and priests are a trap. They might be distinctly BA but in this edition they are a huge points sink and they never pay off in relation to their costs. 

 

BA overall are really lacking in the troops department, just so you know. Are you looking to start an entire new army from scratch or would you mind keeping your SoB as allies? 

 

I disagree. I think jumpers can still win games, they just don't dominate in close combat like they once did. Troop choice with 12" movement is still pretty useful.

 

Heavy support Predators are decent. Devastators with ML are good. 2 Vindicators are scary but don't survive usually (they do however distract your opponent, almost obsessively so). I usually use some combination of Devastators, Predators, and/or Vindicators (never more than 2 of the same kind of any of these), depending on my list.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I think 2 is the best idea if you're sold on using Vindicators. In fact, the 'Paired' selection for me seems to come up a lot. For the 1500-2000 point range, often times I find myself Pairing out

• 2 Stormravens = Excellent. 3 is too much investment and cuts into other elements of hybrid listing
• 2 Baal Preds = Great. Three?.. once again, probably unnecessary
• 2 Squads of 3 MM Attack Bikes = good. Three Squads of 3? Probably overkill
• AC/LCs Preds... same
• ASM Razorbacks --- usually take 4, but 2 LC/TLPG and 2 TLAC

The principle even seems to follow my non-BA list building

• 2x10 Chaos Bikers > 3x10 Chaos Bikers
• 2 Vendetta singles > 3 Vendettas
• 2 Manticores > 3 Manticores
• etc etc

I just find that for the points levels that common games take place at, usually you only need two of any given Unit to acheive what that Unit type is trying to solve within your problem set. Only 1 of a Unit can be too easily mitigated by your opponent... but usually 3 is too much, and you're departing from Economy of Force principles.

[Brother Maikel]

I almost always run a 5-man, 4xML dev squad in my lists.  I'll usually put them decently high up in a ruin of some sort, and they'll generally have a decent field of fire.  I would never run HB Devs.  The missile launcher's versatility is extremely useful: at 48" you get shots that Instant Death MEQ, do nasty things to most MCs, pose a substantial threat to any vehicle AV12 or less, and get a decent number of hits/wounds on most horde units, especially if you can get them when they're pretty bunched up.  All for 130pts.

 

I'd put an ablative wound or two in there, but at 16pts/ea I usually can't afford them, since they don't really do much on their own.

[TheSauce]

My heavy support is usually 2 stormravens, because they're so nasty and I like putting choppy dreads in them.

 

Other than that I've had great luck with a 5 man dev squad with 4 ML. Relatively cheap and can put out a ton of wounds with frag missiles if the opponent isn't spaced well. Also absolutely nasty if you can buff them with prescience from a libby.

[appiah4]

I must admit I haven't read all replies in this topic, but my experience is that BA heavy support choices become more meaningful depending on what you have in the rest of the army.

 

Some CSM heavy units are for us elites, or troops, or even dedicated transports.  Some CSM Elite choices are for us Heavy Support.

 

As a result balancing your heavy support (not the roster type, but actually the weapons) becomes a matter of list building rather than unit picking.

 

Here's my advice:

 

There are a lot of great Fast Attack choices in the BA roster, but they are the real trap here.  If you take more than one of these wonderful choices, you will not be able to take the one unit that will help you most with your constrained Heavy Support choices: The Baal Predator.

 

Take this.  Take two of them.  You will never look back.  It's AV13, absolutely wonderful against infantry and highly effective against armor in a pinch (Fast + TL S6 Rending vs rear armor is incredible).

 

Now you have some AV13 presence on the field, some high S anti-infantry generalist firepower.  What you lack is dedicated anti armor.  You can get this in a couple of flavors.  I'll start with my favorite:

 

The Predator - take it.  If you can, take two of these.  Take them with the TL Lascannon and either no sponsons or Heavy Bolter sponsons depending on your available points and cash.  People will tell you to take the Autocannon turret and Lascannon sponsons - Don't!  The sponsons are a trap, they look cheap but for a reason.  They can't fire over cover, you can't fire them both on the same unit most of the time and if you do you usually end up exposing AV11 to something else.  The turret can rotate, you can better position behind cover and control where you expose it.  It will own AV13, threated AV14 and have a decent (2/6) chance of hitting (usually instagibbing due to S9) most fliyers.

 

The Dreadnought - This is another unit I love to field, and it has the same firepower as the Predator - get the TL Lascannon and the Missile Launcher.  You will now have very good reach with high S weapons, and ability to fire a Frag missile in a pinch.  Only downside is AV12 - keep it away from melee and in cover.  When I can, I hope to replace this with another TLLC predator.  Do NOT take the Rifleman dreadnought.  It's another trap.  S7 AP4 is a dog.  It's lousy against pretty much anything other than low AV transports and what I'm recommending do this job just as well.

 

Now you have another HS slot to fill - there are a couple of good choices here but I will recommend either a Storm Raven.  Here's my 2 cents: Don't take two. Two is overkill.  Fliers remain in the game for, on average, 3 turns.  Taking two Storm Ravens allows you to dominate the air, but  it really hurts your field presence.  Ask yourself this; Will I win the game by Spending 2-3 turns to win air superiority, and then only 1-2 turn to wail on ground targets?  Or will I win it by making the enemy spend 2-3 turns trying to win air superiority and having more feet on the ground?  Take one.  Arm it as a real Gunship, give it the TL Lascannon, Missile Launcher, and with the Blood Strike Missiles as well just blast enemy fliers from distance.  Remember you have PotMS, you can easily take engage 2 each turn.

 

Another great unit is the Devastator Squad, they enjoy cheaper points cost than their CSM equivalents.  You really can't argue against 3 MLs and 1 LC (to take advantage of the Signum against AV13+) for a bargain price.

 

You also have the Land Raider variants as Dedicated Transports, and if you'll take one of these, they'll really add to your armor saturation and pressure the enemy further.

 

Try to look at it from a broader perspective.  You want high AV and durable units on the field that deal good High S low AP firepower.  Remember you are fast.  You can evade and engage as you wish while still shooting enemy armor.

[Sanguine Eternal]

I am also a fan of dev squads with ML.  Lately I take minimum 2 squads, but often take 3.  It is overkill, but cheap, and effective.  Stick them in cover, with good LoS, and you're good to go.

[Dafoo]

I hate to just agree with everyone, but.. Dev Squads are pretty cool.

I personally have been using Two Vindicators and Either a ML Dev Squad or an AutoLas Predator for my Heavy Support slots lately. If I am worried about flying I take the Dev if I am not I like having more hulls and Firing two Lascannons at people.

 

That being said I am currently going with a Mech List. If I was doing DoA or some other list that could be compared more to a SM gunline army I would be doing something else with my Heavy Support slots. I like Stormravens for Deathstar Units It is rather satisfying to have my Death Company drop out of it with a Reclusiarch/ to finish a game for me. Although that is more for fun than anything. 

 

Honestly I tend to always have a full set of Heavy support before I ever go for Elites or Fast Attack..

[AngelsWithBaals]

Honestly I tend to always have a full set of Heavy support before I ever go for Elites or Fast Attack..

 

Completely agree.  Every time I write a list, with the exception of maybe adding a priest to a RAS before I consider HS.  Even then the first slot always seems to go to a raven and the last two to either 2 vindies or two dev squads with ML or PC.  All depends if I'm going mech/hybrid or infantry heavy or the opponents army (nidzilla and crons get missiles to the face)

[Papa Lazarou]

I've found a vindicator and baal predator working as a pair work well. Always had great success with them, but now find with intro of flyers a raven is a must at the moment. Nothing like a vindicator to worry an opponent though.

[Sanguine Eternal]

Problem with the vindi is that it can't shoot at flyers...  Against anything else in range, it will blow them to pieces.  The Baal pred is great against infantry and light AV, but can only glance AV12.  So their are better options for HS choices when dealing with flyers.  They are both great vehicles in my opinion, if you truly want some versatile heavy support, you need to take SR's, devs, or las preds.  Yes you need 6's to hit zooming flyers, but at least you can punch through their armour. 

But back to the OP.  If you say your local group isn't to flyer friendly, you can definitely have a pair of vindis and even a dev squad.  I still like devs in cover, and I try to keep a priest nearby for FnP.  Throw in a few extra marines to soak up some wounds is great as well.  In most games I've played with 3 ML Dev squads, they own, and are still around at the end of the game.  I'd rather have 12 ML or even throw in a las cannon in their for signum shots with devs, over 2 or 3 vindi's or las preds any day.

[tomjoad]

Kind of a small point, but assault cannons can never glance av12. If you roll a 6, you get +d3, so that's always a pen. Baals aren't great v higher armor tanks, but the rends means they're never useless. Plus, the weight of fire means they aren't terrible AA tanks, either. You wouldn't put them up against 3 Vendettas or 6 scythes and expect them to win, but they can help.

 

Just my two cents to defend my favorite tank.

[Sanguine Eternal]

Ah, good to know.  I never really looked into the rending effect vs. vehicles, my mistake.  I do love Baal preds, they just fit more of an anti-infantry role in my army lists, as I would rather utilize their full firing capabilities of side sponsons along with the assault cannons.  But as you have pointed that out to me, I think their roll for me becomes a little broader if needed.  They do dish out an amazing amount of fire power thats for sure, my fav tank in the codex too.

[Ghostwolfalpha]

I love vindicators and they work well in pairs or with another fast moving bullet magnet. Attack bikes and baals work well for this. If people dont lean toward fliers where you play, then be thankful. Vindicators rarely survive till the end, but very rarely have they not payed for themselves and more.

 

I use to love flamestorm cannon baals, but now that grenades have gotten a boost and assaulting vehicle is much eaiser, they have become a liability.

 

Devo squads have always been nice, but as I mainly play SW with BA allies, I tend to take the more flavorful units with my BA.

 

As always, it depends on your play style and opponents as to what will fill out your list best. All BA heavy support options are viable IMO, with whirlwinds being the least so. The stormraven is never a bad option.

[knife&fork]

Devo squads have always been nice

I know it's a typo but I couldn't resist

http://i.imgur.com/AzTbHCG.jpg

Handy for when a transport comes along...

[Sanguine Eternal]

Nice hats on those Devs!  What's it do? Give em a 2++? :P

[Calnus]

Perhaps I'm beaing a dead horse here, but I think the HS breaks down two ways, either for a mech army or a jump army. 

 

For a mech army, you take Baals and Preds, maybe Vindicators instead of Predators if you want to mix it up.  Either way, lots of AV13 and big guns.

 

For any non-mech (jumpers), you take either Devs +Aegis with a bare priest for a firebase, or Stormravens.

 

Either way, you take 2 of whatever you like.  Pairs are definitely the ideal spot to be for points and firepower.

[SevenExxes]

Devo squads have always been nice

I know it's a typo but I couldn't resist

http://i.imgur.com/AzTbHCG.jpg

Handy for when a transport comes along...

Crack that whip!

[Ghostwolfalpha]

Devo squads have always been nice

I know it's a typo but I couldn't resist

http://i.imgur.com/AzTbHCG.jpg

Handy for when a transport comes along...

Holy crap! I didn't even notice the hats. That just made my day.

[Faithwing]

Wow, thanks for the feedback, guys!

 

Sorry, I got caught up with outside stuff.

 

Sounds like the 4 ML Dev team is a solid pick, with a LC and a few extra combat squad guys on stand by.

 

I really appreciate everyone's help. Lately, I've been using BA as allies with my Sisters. Really starting to get a feel for them.

 

Two of the times I've used Mephiston, he has managed to not die, and it's basically been because the good tips I got here in the other thread. I used the Saint, and Seraphim to screen him, or hopped him behind LOS-blocking terrain. So thanks for that! (Although there was a close call, when He'Stan piled into an assault... but I Transfixing Gaze'd him, activated Sanguine Sword, put 3 wounds on him, and he rolled a 1 and insta-died.)