Is this Pink Horror Unit Viable?

[Smurfalypse]

Okay, so been running this by a buddy who plays some DA and he says he thinks its good and what not. But wanted to run it by the good and always positive folks at B&C. . .

 

x20 Horrors

x1 Herald of Tzeentch

x1 Herald of Tzeentch w/Grimoire.

 

The Heralds will take the primarus from Change and then roll two on Divination and one of the two will drop one to get prescience. One will also take the +1str to psychic powers Loci and Grimoire to try and add some tanking ability to the squad.

 

Herads will pump out 3d6 on average because they are using a charge each for buffs/debuffs more than likely. So 6d6 total that hit on 3s with rerolls. Horrors will pump out their 4d6 with rerolls that hit on 4s.

 

Heralds will average 30ish hits with rerolls as they have BS4

Horrors will average 18ish hits with rerolls.

At str 6 they should wound on 2+ vs most normal units.

This comes to 40 wounds on average vs most units.

This is 14ish dead marines or far more dead of anything else.

Grimoire would give them a 3+ sv with rerolls of 1.

 

This is just the blanket numbers, I know they could roll their 6 and ignore it all together. Wouldnt target units that have psychers in them, this unit is for destroying light tanks and basic infantry (from Guardsment to MEQ).

 

This leads me to the question at hand. Is THIS 400pt unit (including Heralds at ML3 and Grimoire) worth it? Give me some pros and cons if ya would and maybe we can get a good debate going.

 

**edit for poor grammer/spelling, also changed some dumb stuff I said**

[Captain Idaho]

Hmm. I'd say it is a solid anchor unit. The additional Herald does seem extravagant though.

 

What do other people think?

[EricBasser]

It's a lot of points. Looks fun though. Add the Blasted Standard for more hits. Could be devastating combining prescience and misfortune.

 

Pros: Number of re-rolling shots. Str 6. 3++ save.

 

Cons: Number of dice needed. :P Deep strike Footprint. Deny the witch. Anything assaulting them.

 

Let us know how it does.

[Smurfalypse]

Would not deepstrike as they cant shoot when they come in, you generate your warp charge before that phase of the game. So would need to be on the board to start :P

[banis]

I see nothing in the rules that suggest that you have to be on the board to generate a warp token. In fact you are the first one i have seen to suggest this.

Also i recall a resent FAQ that stated you could even cast blessings and such when comming from reserve. As it was the player who's turn it was who decided in which order simultaneous events occurred.

[Smurfalypse]

I see nothing in the rules that suggest that you have to be on the board to generate a warp token. In fact you are the first one i have seen to suggest this.

Also i recall a resent FAQ that stated you could even cast blessings and such when comming from reserve. As it was the player who's turn it was who decided in which order simultaneous events occurred.

 

Well damn, I have been screwing myself all this time. . .

[Iron Sage]

Okay, so been running this by a buddy who plays some DA and he says he thinks its good and what not. But wanted to run it by the good and always positive folks at B&C. . .

 

x20 Horrors

x1 Herald of Tzeentch

x1 Herald of Tzeentch w/Grimoire.

 

The Heralds will take the primarus from Change and then roll two on Divination and one of the two will drop one to get prescience. One will also take the +1str to psychic powers Loci and Grimoire to try and add some tanking ability to the squad.

 

Herads will pump out 3d6 on average because they are using a charge each for buffs/debuffs more than likely. So 6d6 total that hit on 3s with rerolls. Horrors will pump out their 4d6 with rerolls that hit on 4s.

 

Heralds will average 30ish hits with rerolls as they have BS4

Horrors will average 18ish hits with rerolls.

At str 6 they should wound on 2+ vs most normal units.

This comes to 40 wounds on average vs most units.

This is 14ish dead marines or far more dead of anything else.

Grimoire would give them a 3+ sv with rerolls of 1.

 

This is just the blanket numbers, I know they could roll their 6 and ignore it all together. Wouldnt target units that have psychers in them, this unit is for destroying light tanks and basic infantry (from Guardsment to MEQ).

 

This leads me to the question at hand. Is THIS 400pt unit (including Heralds at ML3 and Grimoire) worth it? Give me some pros and cons if ya would and maybe we can get a good debate going.

 

**edit for poor grammer/spelling, also changed some dumb stuff I said**

Love it!

 

Potential for incredible dakka to say the least ! :)

 

Obviously enemy making the DNW would be terrible, but that life. In every other way, it`s wicked!

[Smurfalypse]

Okay, so been running this by a buddy who plays some DA and he says he thinks its good and what not. But wanted to run it by the good and always positive folks at B&C. . .

x20 Horrors

x1 Herald of Tzeentch

x1 Herald of Tzeentch w/Grimoire.

The Heralds will take the primarus from Change and then roll two on Divination and one of the two will drop one to get prescience. One will also take the +1str to psychic powers Loci and Grimoire to try and add some tanking ability to the squad.

Herads will pump out 3d6 on average because they are using a charge each for buffs/debuffs more than likely. So 6d6 total that hit on 3s with rerolls. Horrors will pump out their 4d6 with rerolls that hit on 4s.

Heralds will average 30ish hits with rerolls as they have BS4

Horrors will average 18ish hits with rerolls.

At str 6 they should wound on 2+ vs most normal units.

This comes to 40 wounds on average vs most units.

This is 14ish dead marines or far more dead of anything else.

Grimoire would give them a 3+ sv with rerolls of 1.

This is just the blanket numbers, I know they could roll their 6 and ignore it all together. Wouldnt target units that have psychers in them, this unit is for destroying light tanks and basic infantry (from Guardsment to MEQ).

This leads me to the question at hand. Is THIS 400pt unit (including Heralds at ML3 and Grimoire) worth it? Give me some pros and cons if ya would and maybe we can get a good debate going.

**edit for poor grammer/spelling, also changed some dumb stuff I said**

Love it!

Potential for incredible dakka to say the least !

Obviously enemy making the DNW would be terrible, but that life. In every other way, it`s wicked!

Yeah, three different Deny the Witches will be made. So really every other turn he should pass one provided you target units without a psycher in them.

[Black_Crusader]

I feel that two heralds might be too much. Through your calculations you get around 14 meq dead so maybe without one herald you could get at least 10 which is good.

For the part you want this unit to play i believe making it 300 points worth is a better investment.

[Monkeychunks]

Not to put a downer on this but your maths is well off regarding how many hits you are getting.

 

If each Herald is going for 3D6 shots, you can expect to roll up ~21 which translates to ~18 hits, not 30.

Similarly 4D6 from the Horrors should average 14 shot, which then goes to 10.5 hits if Prescience is up.

 

So you're actually looking at ~29 hits, or 24 wounds. Barely half of what you calculated.

Granted 24 wounds is still 8 Marines which is a bloody good display, but it's also going to cost a hell of a lot and can be prevented by DtW.

[Black_Crusader]

Those numbers where for max shoots.

The fact that this unit has a lot of potential does not change. That unit shooting at a AVs can totally wreack anything AV12 in a single volley. It is also devastating against anything without 3+ or better. I call this a good option but a little expensive. It can also get 10 str 6 hits on a flyier on average. So flyiers with AV less than 12 will probably be destroyed in one shoot and one more shoot will be more than enough to finish any flyer even if the unit does take some wounds.

With only one Herald you get 20 str6 hits, that means at least 3 glancing hits on AV 12 and totally blows anything smaller. Plus you devastate anything without a 3+ or better save.

I beleive it is worth trying it.

[Monkeychunks]

While the potential may be high, there is a much more likely chance of them accomplishing nothing. You cannot work on the assumption that you will get maximum shots when deciding if a unit is good because that situation will never happen in reality and the unit will repeatedly underperform relative to what you were expecting.

 

You can look at Horrors and see that if you roll 10 6's in a row, you will put out enough firepower to wipe a squad. While I'm sure this is very appealing as a potential, the reality would be that you can expect to kill most of them if the enemy fails all 3 DtW rolls. Realistically you can expect about 20 wounds as your average output after DtW, so this is how you should evaluate the unit.

 

You are just as likely to roll 10 shots as you are 60. However, the opponent only needs 3 6's to nullify the whole shot which while unlikely, is going to be seen a hell of a lot more often.

[Captain Idaho]

You said yourself thought; the average firepower of the unit is still pretty impressive in an all comers list. Your calculations mentioned 24 wounds against power armour, which require saving right? Well I know that rolling that many dice for saves on 1 unit is not something I relish!

 

180pts for a 20 strong unit to hold objectives and lay down firepower is pretty damn good and we all know just how good a level 3 Herald is (make it into most lists beyond Daemons I'd wager).

 

The negative variables are negligible considering Tactical squads are much less offensive on the whole yet have their own variables to contend with (cover, line of sight, casualties removing force multipliers I.e. Weapons etc).

[EricBasser]

I think the real potential comes from the Heralds and Divination powers. Add in Misfortune and the output and fails increases. Now it is random, but what isn't now?

[Captain Idaho]

Thing is, the points of failure aren't that strong. As a Marines player, I've found relying on opponents to fail Leadership 10 and then make a 6 on a Deny the Watch is a recipe of disaster.

 

You're just as likely to miss that Melta shot, or fluff your penetration rolls, as anything else. It's no big deal. 40K isn't about crunching the numbers and taking as many Long Fangs as you can. Not anymore.

[Smurfalypse]

Thing is, the points of failure aren't that strong. As a Marines player, I've found relying on opponents to fail Leadership 10 and then make a 6 on a Deny the Watch is a recipe of disaster.

 

You're just as likely to miss that Melta shot, or fluff your penetration rolls, as anything else. It's no big deal. 40K isn't about crunching the numbers and taking as many Long Fangs as you can. Not anymore.

 

Yep, exactly

[Sception]

As pointed out, average damage is far lower than originally projected, for a unit costing 400 points, eating 2 herald slots, and offering 3 kill points.  If everything works nicely then it looks impressive, but you're talking about having to make 7 or more key rolls before you even start rolling to hit and wound in a given round, and that's without counting reserve or scatter if you deep strike them, and failing any of those rolls severely hurts your output, or in the book's case severely hurts your defense, and as the squad melts so will their output.  And any round where your output drops down due to failed or canceled psychic powers, or poor rolls on number of shots, or hits, or wounds, or above average saves from the enemy, you'll still be stuck contending with warpflame.

 

At no point did probabilities stop mattering in this dice-based miniatures game, and most of your extra rolling is just additional chances to fail - only the number of shots roll also comes with additional chances to do well to balance it out.

 

I'm not saying the set up is awful.  I'd like to see someone run it and see how it does.  But at an initial look it doesn't exactly seem like an ideal use of 400 points and two herald slots to me.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd do it with a single unit and Herald. It's less than 400pts. Depending on what you're going for you're paying around 300pts.

 

It's funny how people consider these crucial rolls yet the internet considers Long Fangs and Rune Priests or something similar a competitive staple. At least if you fluff one roll you get to continue to try another roll, so although there are more psychic tests involved, failing one attempt etc does ruin the whole combination.

[Smurfalypse]

Used this unit yesterday in a game vs Tau, also had a large CSM unit that was footslogging so they soaked a bunch of the first turn or two of fire.

 

Kill list.

Devil Fish

x3 Piranhas

Pathfinder Squad

Put a hull point on a Hammerhead

Unit of Fire Warriors

 

Overall was pretty good and when I rolled a 3+ on the Grimoir the first few turns he just gave up shooting at them, one of the Heralds also rolled up the 4++ psychic power from Divination so that helped as well. Between that and Prescience they really did tons of damage.

[minigun762]

I second (or third) the idea of using a single herald. Anything more just creates too tempting on an assault target in my eyes.

[Smurfalypse]

I second (or third) the idea of using a single herald. Anything more just creates too tempting on an assault target in my eyes.

 

Yeah, I can understand that and it wont take away a whole lot of what the unit does. However getting two different Heralds does add a few certain things, more buffs, more debuffs, more shots. All for 120ish pts.

 

The unit itself with a 3++ or 2++ (if you roll up the 4++ power in divination) really makes the unit nearly unkillable, so soaking fire would be a good thing in most games. In that game vs the Tau I actually stopped using it on them because I had cleared most of the mass fire from that area of the board and was worried I would get the dreaded 1-2 and he would take a chance to unload on me. 

[Captain Idaho]

Away from my copy of the Codex, but does the Exalted Locus stack? Bumping the strength of the attack to 7 would make the unit a deadly proposition to vehicles.

[Smurfalypse]

Away from my copy of the Codex, but does the Exalted Locus stack? Bumping the strength of the attack to 7 would make the unit a deadly proposition to vehicles.

 

None of the Loci stack, it says that if two of the same Loci are in the same unit that one works and the other doesn't, but as soon as one dies the other comes into effect. 

[minigun762]

 

I second (or third) the idea of using a single herald. Anything more just creates too tempting on an assault target in my eyes.

 

Yeah, I can understand that and it wont take away a whole lot of what the unit does. However getting two different Heralds does add a few certain things, more buffs, more debuffs, more shots. All for 120ish pts.

 

The unit itself with a 3++ or 2++ (if you roll up the 4++ power in divination) really makes the unit nearly unkillable, so soaking fire would be a good thing in most games. In that game vs the Tau I actually stopped using it on them because I had cleared most of the mass fire from that area of the board and was worried I would get the dreaded 1-2 and he would take a chance to unload on me. 

They would be really difficult to kill but your opponent doesn't need to kill them, just stop them from shooting. Tying them up with a cheap assault unit is just as effective as actually kiling them for protecting the rest of your army. This is my biggest concern, as Horrors aren't likely to win or even tie in combat and instability wounds can add up quickly.

[Captain Idaho]

A unit at the back shouldn't worry too much as long you are scary enough elsewhere in the army!

 

 

Away from my copy of the Codex, but does the Exalted Locus stack? Bumping the strength of the attack to 7 would make the unit a deadly proposition to vehicles.

 

None of the Loci stack, it says that if two of the same Loci are in the same unit that one works and the other doesn't, but as soon as one dies the other comes into effect. 

Ah well I'll just settle for S6!