Question regarding fluff

[Nemo vas Varya]

I have planned to play up the legion building aspects of the Dark Angels by modeling and painted two chapters that run in the same FoC. One is the DA itself, and the second was going to be a home brewed. (Thus giving me the best of both worlds, a clear and obvious chapter, and the ability to do my own fluff as well!)

 

Question I have, being very new to Marine fluff, is regarding my concept. The concept is it was a chapter founded just prior to crusade campaign to take back a series of worlds as a warp storm receded. The campaign was going to be led by the Ecclesiarch, and commanded by Canoness Superior Dinael III, who is now known as St. Dinael. The Dark Angels subtly pushed to have a Dark Angel Geneseed chapter present due to 'prophecies' of a large number of fallen that would be found during the Crusade. A new founded was agreed upon as a compromise between the Ecclesiarch and the Dark Angels, the Ecclesiarch hoping the new chapter would avoid the pit falls of the other Dark Angels chapters, (And secretly, they hoped they would have more influence over this chapter, and thus be able to call upon Astartes help and allies.)

 

During the final month of the Crusade, the personal body guard of the Canoness Superior Dinael came under attack, and the 1st Company of the Chapter responded, and deployed to defend her. It was quickly apparent, even with the full strength of the 1st Company, with the 3rd and 5th on route, they could not win the battle. Dinael ordered everyone to retreat, telling her guard to assist with the retreat and salvation of the pinned Guard regiment that Dinael had originally responded to. During the retreat, the line was broken and it quickly fell apart until Dinael, a handful of the 1st Company, and Dinael's bodyguard counter-charged the Chaos attack, allowing the beleaguered guard regiment, and the remaining members of the 1st Company to withdraw.

 

Dinael, and those who stayed behind would fall in battle that day.

 

The withdrawn regiment would a week later be the spearhead of an assault that would break the back of the Chaos and the Crusade would be over within the month.

 

To honor the sacrifice of Dinael, and her leadership through out the Crusade, the chapter renamed itself Angels of St. Dinael. To honor Dinael, they also instituted a policy of if a recruit has a sister, they take her as well, and train her for war, and assign her to an unofficial 11th Company, also called "The Daughters of Dinael." This company primarily serves as crew on strike cruisers, vehicle drivers and operators, but can and will sometimes deploy with the main force. (Likely this will be brought to the table by allying sisters, or counting them as 'scouts')

 

Does this fit at all with established fluff, IE would this be allowed or would other forces come out of no where to put the stop to it, etc...

[DoggNewTrix]

  Well, I think the biggest problem is that the DA and the inquisition don't, shall we say, see eye to eye.  The sisters are and ecclesiarchy, inquisition force...... I like the story,  but you're gonna explode some fluff nazi heads with this one... As far as a unit of sisters go, just make them allies so they can keep their 3+ saves and use acts of faith.  I don't have the BRB on hand but I'm sure the DA and sisters can ally

[Nemo vas Varya]

  Well, I think the biggest problem is that the DA and the inquisition don't, shall we say, see eye to eye.  The sisters are and ecclesiarchy, inquisition force...... I like the story,  but you're gonna explode some fluff nazi heads with this one... As far as a unit of sisters go, just make them allies so they can keep their 3+ saves and use acts of faith.  I don't have the BRB on hand but I'm sure the DA and sisters can ally

My understanding is that the Inquisition and Ecclesiarch are not necessarily buddies either, so why would the DAs conflict with the Inquisition come into play? If I remember correctly, the Ecclesiarch has this nasty habit of viewing radical Inquisitors as heretics and trying to kill them...

 

There is also the history of Sisters fighting alongside marines in the fluff as well. In the Sabbot Crusades, as detailed through tidbits from the Guant's ghost series, the White Scars were memorialized along side of St Sabbot due to the fact they were at every battle with her?

 

But in short, the idea of the 'Daughters' Company is not out, just possible conflict in the origin story?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I would say the natural distrust of the Dark Angels would prevent this.

 

That said, as long as no other Imperial organisation had any real say in it other than the Unforgiven, and the Daughters were not part of the Inner Circle at all, then I could see this being a very interesting concept to explore. 

[Nemo vas Varya]

I think there is a misunderstanding. The "Daughters" are not part of the Ecclesiarch. They are biological sisters of those recruited to the chapter who are trained as a memorial to St. Dinael, a figure the chapter fought alongside of and respected. This isn't a case of the Dark Angels and Sisters tying a knot, more as a Dark Angel chapter playing even looser with the Codex Astartes then normal.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I think there is a misunderstanding. The "Daughters" are not part of the Ecclesiarch. They are biological sisters of those recruited to the chapter who are trained as a memorial to St. Dinael, a figure the chapter fought alongside of and respected. This isn't a case of the Dark Angels and Sisters tying a knot, more as a Dark Angel chapter playing even looser with the Codex Astartes then normal.

 

In that case, just watch out for the Inquisition and you should be fine!

 

The other scenario you need to consider and answer is what is the Dark Angel's view on this? Are they onside? Skeptical? Couldn't care less?

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

So essentially the Daughters are chapter serfs by another name?

[Nemo vas Varya]

So essentially the Daughters are chapter serfs by another name?

 

Didn't think of simplifying it to that level. Like I said new SM Fluff still. What roles do the serfs typically play?

 

 

I think there is a misunderstanding. The "Daughters" are not part of the Ecclesiarch. They are biological sisters of those recruited to the chapter who are trained as a memorial to St. Dinael, a figure the chapter fought alongside of and respected. This isn't a case of the Dark Angels and Sisters tying a knot, more as a Dark Angel chapter playing even looser with the Codex Astartes then normal.

 

In that case, just watch out for the Inquisition and you should be fine!

 

The other scenario you need to consider and answer is what is the Dark Angel's view on this? Are they onside? Skeptical? Couldn't care less?

 

I imagine the core Dark Angel chapter would be incredibly skeptical. But given variations in successor chapters, I get the impression that as long as the secret is kept, the Fallen are hunted, and the Chapter does not bring to much scrutiny to itself, all is good.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

 

So essentially the Daughters are chapter serfs by another name?

 

Didn't think of simplifying it to that level. Like I said new SM Fluff still. What roles do the serfs typically play?

 

Various roles. They act as superior armed mortal troops, naval armsmen (generic term for human) onboard Chapter ships, work with the techmarines, look after weapons/armour, supply food, cook, clean, fight.

 

They do all the stuff that Astartes don't, plus, they have units that can actually fight in support of the Astartes.

[march10k]

I think it's fine.  And I'm sick and @$#^%ing tired of people thinking SoB, Ecclesiarchy, and Inquisition are all one and the same.  Yes, there's a massive invisible wall between the DA legion and the ]I[, but SoB and the Ecclesiarchy are no more or less "frozen out" by the DA than, say, the AM.  DA have techmarines, and a superficially open relationship with the nutbags of mars...but no techmarine will ever join the inner circle.  So this emotional tie between a DA chapter and a hero of the SoB, who happens to be dead, is fine.

[Jehoel]

Much of the idea that the SoB, Ecclesiarchy, and Inquisition are all one and the same comes from the older codexes. After all, in the old SoB codex (Codex: Witch Hunters) the Ordo Hereticus was part of the codex. So, while the codex did say that they were not the same thing, the idea was planted that they were. Blame old fluff that was fixed in a recon for the mix up.

 

On the OP's idea, sounds like a cool idea. The Daughters could be represented with SoB or IG, either way they would be a chapter serf force that serves with the chapter. Probably more defensive than offensive.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Good luck finding female IG models, though. :/

[Nemo vas Varya]

Much of the idea that the SoB, Ecclesiarchy, and Inquisition are all one and the same comes from the older codexes. After all, in the old SoB codex (Codex: Witch Hunters) the Ordo Hereticus was part of the codex. So, while the codex did say that they were not the same thing, the idea was planted that they were. Blame old fluff that was fixed in a recon for the mix up.

 

On the OP's idea, sounds like a cool idea. The Daughters could be represented with SoB or IG, either way they would be a chapter serf force that serves with the chapter. Probably more defensive than offensive.

Not sure what would be better, sisters or IG. Sisters get better save, and only ever going to use 1 squad or so. (Guess I could use a Lord Commie as an HQ, and then a Vet Squad... with sister of battle models. I think though, that for such a small force, might as well use the sisters. The better armor choices and Acts of Faith might at least make them a more hardy advancing element.

[march10k]

Jehoel, on 16 Mar 2013 - 18:34, said:

Much of the idea that the SoB, Ecclesiarchy, and Inquisition are all one and the same comes from the older codexes. After all, in the old SoB codex (Codex: Witch Hunters) the Ordo Hereticus was part of the codex. So, while the codex did say that they were not the same thing, the idea was planted that they were. Blame old fluff that was fixed in a recon for the mix up.

 

On the OP's idea, sounds like a cool idea. The Daughters could be represented with SoB or IG, either way they would be a chapter serf force that serves with the chapter. Probably more defensive than offensive.

 

And the morons who jump to that wrong conclusion probably weren't born yet at the time of the previous, clean-of-]I[, C:SoB...

 

I would go with IG. Power-armored serfs would be...unusual. If you're just representing them on the battlefield, I would actually go with helmeted cadian models. If you're really good with greenstuff, you could pull off a little flaring of the hips (their chests are armored, so...) and maybe the odd ponytail to feminize them... Since the male eye is evolved to subconsciously detect a female waist-to-hips ratio, it wouldn't take much, and it would be easy to overdo. Anyway, rules-wise, you have one veteran squad and one commie (as a "steward"), and presto, fluffy representation of the chapter fluff is brought to life on the gaming table, and not at all in a way that could bring cries of "cheese!"

 

If you really wanted to go crazy with it...for a fast attack unit, you could get those powerlifter sentinels from FW...that would be extremely "worker pressed into service in defense in an emergency situation"

 

My own IG army represents the PDF of a DA recruiting world, even when they're played (as they usually are) on their own, without any DA units on the table.

[Nemo vas Varya]

 

Jehoel, on 16 Mar 2013 - 18:34, said:

Much of the idea that the SoB, Ecclesiarchy, and Inquisition are all one and the same comes from the older codexes. After all, in the old SoB codex (Codex: Witch Hunters) the Ordo Hereticus was part of the codex. So, while the codex did say that they were not the same thing, the idea was planted that they were. Blame old fluff that was fixed in a recon for the mix up.

 

On the OP's idea, sounds like a cool idea. The Daughters could be represented with SoB or IG, either way they would be a chapter serf force that serves with the chapter. Probably more defensive than offensive.

And the morons who jump to that wrong conclusion probably weren't born yet at the time of the previous, clean-of-]I[, C:SoB...

 

I would go with IG. Power-armored serfs would be...unusual. If you're just representing them on the battlefield, I would actually go with helmeted cadian models. If you're really good with greenstuff, you could pull off a little flaring of the hips (their chests are armored, so...) and maybe the odd ponytail to feminize them... Since the male eye is evolved to subconsciously detect a female waist-to-hips ratio, it wouldn't take much, and it would be easy to overdo. Anyway, rules-wise, you have one veteran squad and one commie (as a "steward"), and presto, fluffy representation of the chapter fluff is brought to life on the gaming table, and not at all in a way that could bring cries of "cheese!"

 

If you really wanted to go crazy with it...for a fast attack unit, you could get those powerlifter sentinels from FW...that would be extremely "worker pressed into service in defense in an emergency situation"

 

My own IG army represents the PDF of a DA recruiting world, even when they're played (as they usually are) on their own, without any DA units on the table.

Already have a Guard army though, don't want to have two :-p Plus I am horrible at modeling myself, and know I lack the skills to feminize a guard model, but there are a lot of kits to help with the conversion out there. At least with a Guard attachment, I know the rules well and such, and I could justify bringing in a Vendetta to deal with Heldrake spam.... (My Vendetta is painted up like the Navy so doesn't need to match the guard colors :-p)

 

So time to expand the fluff more, and then figure out how to bring it to the table. Should be a fun project!

 

Update Edit: Decided to go the IG route, and am going to use these:

 

http://static.shop033.com/resources/7C/160892/picture/E9/77009129.jpg

 

It brings out the, 'not meant to fight, but can if we have to' thing.

[march10k]

lol...very nice!  If you're going to bring in the navy...I'd use a thunderbolt, and have it count as a vendetta for rules/FOC purposes, but fluff-wise, make it actually be the type of unit that it's supposed to be...a fighter!  But if you wanted to be more realistic, you'd use an arvus lighter "counts as" a valkyrie.  Hell, you can even get a lascannon and some hellstrikes from FW at the same time and jury-rig them under the wings of the arvus, which is extremely fluffy for a non-combat aircraft pressed into service with makeshift weaponry, while satisfying the legal requirements of a valk...

[Nemo vas Varya]

lol...very nice!  If you're going to bring in the navy...I'd use a thunderbolt, and have it count as a vendetta for rules/FOC purposes, but fluff-wise, make it actually be the type of unit that it's supposed to be...a fighter!  But if you wanted to be more realistic, you'd use an arvus lighter "counts as" a valkyrie.  Hell, you can even get a lascannon and some hellstrikes from FW at the same time and jury-rig them under the wings of the arvus, which is extremely fluffy for a non-combat aircraft pressed into service with makeshift weaponry, while satisfying the legal requirements of a valk...

Stop giving me good ideas! I can't afford it.

[march10k]

lol

[RolandTHTG]

Where are those models from? Really like the look. And a unit of "special serfs" could easily be disguised within the chapter organization, especially IG-quality ones (you could easily use the carapace armor doctrine on the vets if you wanted better armor without getting into "why are those serfs in power armor?" territory)

[Nemo vas Varya]

Where are those models from? Really like the look. And a unit of "special serfs" could easily be disguised within the chapter organization, especially IG-quality ones (you could easily use the carapace armor doctrine on the vets if you wanted better armor without getting into "why are those serfs in power armor?" territory)

 

They are from: http://statuesqueminiatures.shop033.com/

 

They are 30mm, but not heroic scale, result they are a little more slender, and about the same height as a guard, depending on pose.

[Brother Immolator]

You can use those as well : http://chapterhousestudios.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=77&product_id=163

 

I would be weary of handing bolters and power armor to 'mortal troops'. Power armor and boltguns are considered sacred equipment in the imperium. The fact that the SOB use them too, isnt streched enough that lies within their own purity, therefore its ok. I cant see a space marine handing out power armor and boltguns to mere mortal troops, no matter the relation IMHO.

It would be better to have them as IG armed 'light infantry' for supporting ops.

However there is another flaw if you can call it that: As stated you need to find a good fluffy reason as to why those are been tolerated by the Unforgiven as a new company/attached troops and it is also considered a serious breach of the codex astartes and the Imperial military protocol. Namely: Durring the great crusade, imperial guard forces had suffered horendusly under the command of astartes officers because the later were unable to comprehend the mortality of their own troops. So it was banned, marines would never act as commanding officers of human troops. A wider campaign might fall under the juristiction of a marine commander but the guard operates as a semi indipendednt element.

 

Are you sure you dont want them as a PDF force on your chapters homeworld akin to the Macragge militias? It will tie a bit easier. Not to say that it cant be done but its a tad bit complex. Especially with the unforgiven in the mix.

[Avon Rekaes]

Not sure how the Unforgiven add to the complexity. We already deviate from the Codex Astartes with having unnumbered Deathwing and Ravenwing companies. I'd think having greater-than-the-norm amount of Terminator Veterans in a chapter would be a much bigger deal to the Imperium than commanding some well-equipped serfs.

 

To put it another way, the Unforgiven aren't really known for playing by the book, quite literally. Why would they, as you put it, "especially" have a problem with this? Why would the Unforgiven not "tolerate" another deviation, so long as the Inner Circle is kept intact and secret?

 

The power armor and bolter being sacred, I'd agree with. However, I think that a Space Marine chapter is largely autonomous and has the authority to do what it wishes with it's own armory. If they have a surplus of power armor and bolters and have judged their own battle-sisters as holy and pure enough to wield them, it's no one's right to countermand that judgement.

[Nemo vas Varya]

Just want to point out that in theory I could run every officer, and Commissar in a Guard list with a bolter... it is just a pointless upgrade for them most of the time.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Perhaps the Daughters can act as field liaisons with other Imperial forces (like skeptical Sister of Battle orders )? This way, they are still "serfs" but have a legitimate reason to be on the field whenever there's a fight to be had. And the Unforgiven don't have to personally waste time with mortals or risk their battle plans be ruined by the outsiders' own plans.

Off-topic: the RW and DW may not have a set limit, but considering the nature of their duties, as well as the tortuous progression path that leads a veteran to these companies, I don't think they grow too far beyond the usual 100 members at any given time.

[Brother Immolator]

Not sure how the Unforgiven add to the complexity. We already deviate from the Codex Astartes with having unnumbered Deathwing and Ravenwing companies. I'd think having greater-than-the-norm amount of Terminator Veterans in a chapter would be a much bigger deal to the Imperium than commanding some well-equipped serfs.

 

To put it another way, the Unforgiven aren't really known for playing by the book, quite literally. Why would they, as you put it, "especially" have a problem with this? Why would the Unforgiven not "tolerate" another deviation, so long as the Inner Circle is kept intact and secret?

 

The power armor and bolter being sacred, I'd agree with. However, I think that a Space Marine chapter is largely autonomous and has the authority to do what it wishes with it's own armory. If they have a surplus of power armor and bolters and have judged their own battle-sisters as holy and pure enough to wield them, it's no one's right to countermand that judgement.

 

The Unforgiven don't let the others know that they have larger companies and the deviation from the codex is not visible too. Simply put, the unforgiven the rest of the imperium don't. Nowhere is recorded or even suspected that the DW are indeed the only members of the first company or that the chapters deviate from the codex. 'Compliance' is another masquerade we wear. And if they are rigid enough to have all their successors operate under the same guidelines, I suspect that in order to deviate the chapter will be needed to be grand some kind leisure from the Grand Master. Something I don't see happening.

 

Thus the problem is this: Have to show that we are codex compliant BUT organize under the unforgiven structure and parameters. This 11th company falls short on both accounts, and requires a clever twist and believable reason to be sanctioned by both wider imperium and unforgiven.

 

And if it was so easy, each chapter would have companies of auxilias equipped as such. There was a reason it was prevented in the first place. Both to wield command over humans and enlarge the chapter. Such a formation is again violation of both.

 

I don't say it cant be done, I am saying you need to think this through and through. You are running an unforgiven chapter that alone is enough to have you branded and suspect and you are feeding them even more.