Bloody Legionnaire Posted March 16, 2013 Share Posted March 16, 2013 So I am definitely still a new player and I have run into some issues I'm trying to resolve...I was under the impression from the guys at my FLGS that I play against.. that if a vehicle moves at it's normal speed then it can fire all of it's weapons (non snap shot) at full WS. Apparently this is not true. I don't have a rulebook yet but I guess I better pick one up soon so I can start studying this stuff.Anyway.. on to what's frustrating me. So I really like playing with Vehicles.. GW has put out some cool models and they do pretty well on the table top, however when it comes to being effective on the table a lot of these new rules are starting to seem really unbalanced. I know there are plenty of other complaints in the realm of balance (or lack there of) in 6th edition or whatever other edition... but try to help me understand why it is only vehicles that receive a slap on the wrist for moving at normal speed and shooting? It seems like monstrous creatures, flyers, walkers... so on, aren't prevented... (or I am flat out wrong and clueless and have received the wrong idea from those that taught me how to play) I understand most people are moving to foot slogging Armies anyway.. and maybe these new rules coupled with hull points are the answer why.. meh, end rant begin discussion/enlightment. Sorry if it seems like a bunch of wining but like I said.. learning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelsWithBaals Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Vehicles can move and shoot one weapon at full BS when traveling at combat speed (6 inches) and snap fire the rest or move at cruising speed (up to 12 inches) and snap fire all their weapons. Fast vehicles can move 6 inches and fire all their weapons at full BS or move up to 12 and fire 2 at full BS and snap shot the rest. This is off the top of my head, no rulebook handy so correct me if I'm wrong... Also, I play mech. hybrid BA and my experience has been that heavy mech. (AV 13+) has been a lot more effective while functional and somewhat more durable (BA are also fast). There is definitely less melta out there these days as it's been replaced by plasma which can at best glance, meaning your heavy tanks can keep shooting without getting stun locked. Depends on the vehicle and it's effective range as well, my dreads get flanked easily so the weak rear armor is easy to expose, but an annihilator pred. can keep that 13AV facing most enemy AT all game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/#findComment-3329477 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody Legionnaire Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 Ya.. that's what I understood the rule as.. maybe I need to pick up some blood angels and play around with them and see if they fit the way I like to play.What if a vehicle moves but it does not moves 6" comes to mind. I'm guessing it would default to one weapons fires at full BS while all other weapons are snap shots for all movements up to 6". I still think it's silly that Vehicles are so penalized yet other units like infantry, monstrous creatures, walkers, skimmers, and flyers are not penalized... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/#findComment-3329496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelsWithBaals Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 That is correct, I should have wrote "up to" before each of the distances. I'm hoping that there is a trend in the newer codex's in which vehicles become progressively cheaper to reflect the new rules (the DA book comes to mind) or they gain new rules to reflect their cost (demonic vehicles with invulnerable saves/improved cover, etc.). I think a lot of it comes down to synergy. I try to write lists with an overall strategy in mind, trying to excel at an aspect or two that is exemplified by my codex (playing to and exploiting strengths). Wolves aren't exactly known for their vehicles (except drop pods), but you have some of the best basic troops in the game at a great price. I would focus more on using your light mech to get those into position and not expect them to survive the game. I usually have my rhinos/razors flat out to get into position and then use them as fire magnets/LOS blockers to dictate the flow of battle after the troops disembark. In 5th I would leave them in there until the transport was popped, now there's much more incentive to unload your troops and use it as disposable cover (except for purge the alien). Luckily for you, wolves and BA make excellent allies with each other. Good hunting battle brother!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/#findComment-3329536 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody Legionnaire Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 There appears to be two schools of thought when it comes to collecting warhammer models and playing the game. One is to do research and start with the Army whose rules you like and style you might be interested in.. the other is to start buying the models you like and formulate a force over time. I am in the latter part of the crowd. I fully agree with your point that vehicles should have some special rules to reflect their point costs. One of my favorite looking models is the Land Raider and the only special rule about it is the ability units to assault directly out of it. In comparison to other models in the game in it's point range.. it is unfortunately lacking. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/#findComment-3329559 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 There appears to be two schools of thought when it comes to collecting warhammer models and playing the game. One is to do research and start with the Army whose rules you like and style you might be interested in.. the other is to start buying the models you like and formulate a force over time. I am in the latter part of the crowd. I fully agree with your point that vehicles should have some special rules to reflect their point costs. One of my favorite looking models is the Land Raider and the only special rule about it is the ability units to assault directly out of it. In comparison to other models in the game in it's point range.. it is unfortunately lacking. You forget Power of the Machine Spirit. Which is like being a fast tank to some degree but you can instead choose to split fire. Black Templar are still enjoying that rule for our other tanks, but that's one of the few advantages of being an old codex. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/#findComment-3329570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wulfebane Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 It's to simulate targeting and moving big sponsons into position. If the tank moves less, then it has more time to coordinate trajectory, etc. We didn't use to be able to fire at all.. atleast now we can fire Snap Shots, which is a buff. Fast vehicles suffer from less armor or weaker gunnery options, generally, so actual tanks sacrifice that mobility for stronger weapons and more armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/#findComment-3329581 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelsWithBaals Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 There appears to be two schools of thought when it comes to collecting warhammer models and playing the game. One is to do research and start with the Army whose rules you like and style you might be interested in.. the other is to start buying the models you like and formulate a force over time. I am in the latter part of the crowd. I fully agree with your point that vehicles should have some special rules to reflect their point costs. One of my favorite looking models is the Land Raider and the only special rule about it is the ability units to assault directly out of it. In comparison to other models in the game in it's point range.. it is unfortunately lacking. I completely agree, I used to collect like that. I got out of the hobby for a few years and when I returned I took my time to learn about the various chapters before I committed to BA and started painting and converting my new collection. Land raiders are over costed to the point of unplayable in a competitive environment in 6th IMHO, especially when compared to a storm raven that is cheaper and has many of the same rules and weapons + more and is a flyer. The LR definitely needs a 25-35pt reduction to make it less painful to field and watch get destroyed from a single lucky melta shot or two (or even worse, glanced to death by Cron warriors)... Also, I think the POTMS on the raider is more to compensate for the utter failure of that model to be able to draw LOS to a single unit with both sponsons. I think with the advent of allies it has become very frustrating to field sub par units from ones codex when another does it far better for a relatively cheaper price. I've been seriously considering buying a couple grey hunter squads in pods to replace my BA tacticals... plus a rune priest for psychic defense would be awesome. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/#findComment-3329832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howland Greywolfe Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 There appears to be two schools of thought when it comes to collecting warhammer models and playing the game. One is to do research and start with the Army whose rules you like and style you might be interested in.. the other is to start buying the models you like and formulate a force over time. I am in the latter part of the crowd. I fully agree with your point that vehicles should have some special rules to reflect their point costs. One of my favorite looking models is the Land Raider and the only special rule about it is the ability units to assault directly out of it. In comparison to other models in the game in it's point range.. it is unfortunately lacking. I completely agree, I used to collect like that. I got out of the hobby for a few years and when I returned I took my time to learn about the various chapters before I committed to BA and started painting and converting my new collection. Land raiders are over costed to the point of unplayable in a competitive environment in 6th IMHO, especially when compared to a storm raven that is cheaper and has many of the same rules and weapons + more and is a flyer. The LR definitely needs a 25-35pt reduction to make it less painful to field and watch get destroyed from a single lucky melta shot or two (or even worse, glanced to death by Cron warriors)... Also, I think the POTMS on the raider is more to compensate for the utter failure of that model to be able to draw LOS to a single unit with both sponsons. If we got access to the storm raven then Iwould agree with you. Since we dont, well, the land Raider is still one of my favourate vehicles. And again If you think the POTMS is to compensate for not beng able to see the same target with the sponsoons you havent put the sponsoons on the front (seriously, unless you are really point blank you can see even a vyper if they are on the front) and that only really comes into play with the redemer which I am debating the use of. (Any one else planing to outflank one with a WGBL with some wolfguard and watch the carnege?) As for 'Cron warriors, if they are close enough to get a decent amount of shots on the raider, then they are close enough to be in range of its contents. (Hmmm, who doesnt love crons being hit by frost weapons). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/#findComment-3329946 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelsWithBaals Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Good points, I have my raider sponsons mounted on the back ports. I have mostly used the crusader and redeemer variants so my opinion may be skewed, I'm sure the extra range would help LOS. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/#findComment-3330081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloody Legionnaire Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 There appears to be two schools of thought when it comes to collecting warhammer models and playing the game. One is to do research and start with the Army whose rules you like and style you might be interested in.. the other is to start buying the models you like and formulate a force over time. I am in the latter part of the crowd. I fully agree with your point that vehicles should have some special rules to reflect their point costs. One of my favorite looking models is the Land Raider and the only special rule about it is the ability units to assault directly out of it. In comparison to other models in the game in it's point range.. it is unfortunately lacking. I completely agree, I used to collect like that. I got out of the hobby for a few years and when I returned I took my time to learn about the various chapters before I committed to BA and started painting and converting my new collection. Land raiders are over costed to the point of unplayable in a competitive environment in 6th IMHO, especially when compared to a storm raven that is cheaper and has many of the same rules and weapons + more and is a flyer. The LR definitely needs a 25-35pt reduction to make it less painful to field and watch get destroyed from a single lucky melta shot or two (or even worse, glanced to death by Cron warriors)... Also, I think the POTMS on the raider is more to compensate for the utter failure of that model to be able to draw LOS to a single unit with both sponsons. If we got access to the storm raven then Iwould agree with you. Since we dont, well, the land Raider is still one of my favourate vehicles. And again If you think the POTMS is to compensate for not beng able to see the same target with the sponsoons you havent put the sponsoons on the front (seriously, unless you are really point blank you can see even a vyper if they are on the front) and that only really comes into play with the redemer which I am debating the use of. (Any one else planing to outflank one with a WGBL with some wolfguard and watch the carnege?) As for 'Cron warriors, if they are close enough to get a decent amount of shots on the raider, then they are close enough to be in range of its contents. (Hmmm, who doesnt love crons being hit by frost weapons). I outflanked a redeemer with a WGBL and a pretty upgraded GH squad against a chaos footslogging list... I had a lot of fun once it got on the board. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272874-annoyed-with-6th/#findComment-3330616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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