So I was building a list with the new codex... (DW)

[Aleax]

Hi there,

I slowly come back to 40K after a while, and bought the new Dark Angel Codex. The rules are pretty I shall say, and I first built a 1500 list. No Deathwing and just a Ravenwing LS with no upgrades for the fluff, and a LS is always useful. Obviously I ended with many models this was the goal (all mecanized), but my question is for my 2000 points list.

I wanted absolutely to include DW terminators in my 2000 points army list, being regular or enhanced, and a strong RW unit to the least, because, hey, these are the Dark Angels. For the RW part this was easy, I was very low on multi-wounding high toughness models in my 1500 points list (carnifexes etc) so I chose Black Knights with their twin-linked plasma guns. No upgrades.

Then I wanted to add DW termies. Regular or enhanced? I chose regular, as I wanted ap2 CC weapons and enhanced DA termies don't offer that. And then bam, looking at the point value, I realized that I would probably be better to take more Black Knights, twin-linked ap 2 ranged weapons are the new hotness...for almost the same cost (a tad more expensive).

So I am at this stage, and see no competitive reason to take DW terminators. Expensive for me. Too much? Obviously it's the same thing for regular codex marines, let's say that to me their survivability is very low (in comparison with their point cost), and their kill potential is what Black Knights may simply offer (lower survivability...but all ranged, big difference). Their points cost have been the same since 3rd edition I know (slightly reduced since then).

The other problem I have with DW terminators, is that even with storm bolters, they are only really effective against marines-type armies, and are a points sink against the other armies. My list has the goal to stay competitive against all comers. Black Knights on the other hand can charge with a cunning efficiency low-armoured infantry, and really fast.

So do I ditch DW terminators out of my list and increase my number of Black Knights (or take more regular marines ), or bah nevertheless, DW terminators 'have' to be taken for Dark Angels fluff-wise, yup I plan to teleport them on the right spot with my Black Knights, and so that's ok we will do that, and they will help to kill the opposite leader, and make their points back...

Someone got the same dilemna with DW than me? I know I am probably late with the termies, they being the same since 3rd edition (almost, besides a teleport always active if you want to use it which is nice), but I am here to read opinions of now on that matter.

Thanks !

[march10k]

LOL...quite the opposite for me. Since power swords went to AP3, and lightning claws, as well, I find terminators to be more survivable than ever. Sure, they only have one wound, but it's a really really hard wound to kill. As for storm bolters not being that effective against non-marine enemies...huh? Anyway, the only enemies against whom terminators could be called overkill would be...tau and IG. And against a great many enemies, they're almost essential. I'd say leaving them out weakens, not strengthens, your all-comers credibility. As for the Deathwing Knights, they get S10 AP2 one round per game...and really, if you need it more often than that...you must be playing against a deathwing army! Also, they have T5 if you're keeping them in base to base with each other, so they're insanely hard to kill.

[Nemo vas Varya]

LOL...quite the opposite for me.  Since power swords went to AP3, and lightning claws, as well, I find terminators to be more survivable than ever.  Sure, they only have one wound, but it's a really really hard wound to kill.  As for storm bolters not being that effective against non-marine enemies...huh?  Anyway, the only enemies against whom terminators are overkill would be...tau and IG.  And against a great many enemies, they're almost essential.    I'd say leaving them out weakens, not strengthens, your all-comers credibility.  As for the Deathwing Knights, they get S10 AP2 one round per game...and really, if you need it more often than that...you must be playing against a deathwing army!  Also, they have T5 if you're keeping them in base to base with each other, so they're insanely hard to kill.

 

Coming from a Guard player, termies are not overkill. That deep strike into the center of our artillery that he have hidden away, or behind our Russ, or in that hidden CCS meant to keep our guys in the fight, or the fact we hide Commissars, and important upgrade/characters towards the back, means in an assault you get them first now, if they did not die to shooting. Plus DWs have some nasty special rules when deep striking now... it isn't overkill, it can shut down an IG before they even get a chance to get going...

[march10k]

You're right! IG were my first army, and even against a high-model-count garbage-for-an-armor-save army like IG, deathwing are not overkill. Potentially, pure deathwing might find that they simply don't have enough models on the table to win against guard or orks, but a squad or two in the context of a green army? No downside at all!

[Artemid]

I've found the round of shooting after deep striking into IG lines is what I lose the most Termies to. Makes them rather hard to use IMO since footslogging just feels so slow, and they still can get shot to death. While I do fear AP2 plasma when I field them, I'm far more afraid of volume of fire - I'm always going to roll a bunch of ones on my saves, so rolling 20+ saves makes me very nervous.

[facmanpob]

A few weeks ago I lost 3 terminators to 1 round of shooting from a squad of 20 chaos cultists. Volume of fire is the big killer for me too!

[march10k]

~shrug~ If 5 termies deepstrike and blow the enemy commander off the board, or immobilize a demolisher, or do something else useful, and then additionally soak up an entire round of IG shooting before they go down...that's well worth the 240 or so points...remember, the IG only get six rounds of shooting, and the earlier they are, the heavier...so if you drop in on turn one and zorch something, then he wastes an entire turn dealing with five models, then, yeah, they're dead, but so is his hope of winning.  You can toss out anecdotes about exceptionally effective rounds of enemy shooting all you want.  Hell, I once lost five termies to ten ratling snipers.  But on average, it's going to take 36 BS3 flashlight shots to fell one termie.  That's two full squads of gardsmen at close range firing in concert to peel off one model.  You can count on five deepstriking termies to make a mess of the enemy battle plan, pop a couple kraks into the side of the hydra that was supposed to shoot down your dark talon when it arrives later, and then have 1-2 termies actually survive all the small arms fire the entire enemy army can throw their way.  Just don't drop the termies where a demolisher can pieplate them, and you'll be fine!

[Brother Immolator]

Aleax use both! But swap your regular TH/SS for deathwing knights. Heres why:

Deathwing knights are supremely underestimated. First of all they are T5 (you will shield lock them), and with the SS they can srugg small arms fire easier and plasma though it will cause them wounds, you have better odds against it.

Second the mace though Ap4 it strikes at I. That means on a charge asside from the Hammer or warth attacks, they will swing at least at the sametime with their adversary. And if they need something to suffer critical existance failure you just powerup the maces. That ability is more critical with the new deamons now than ever. There are not many things with the pottential to crush a Bloodthirster in one round of CC. Especially with rad and stasis grenades from a Black Knight squadron, you can reduce its T to 5, power up the maces and Instagib it. It has no eternal warrior . And thats only an example of what those two units can do together.

[Brom MKIV]

I can't add much on deathwing that hasn't already been well addressed. However I will say that while black knights are ultra sexy they die very easily. They will usually erase something then go down like t5 meq usually does. Deathwing otoh fill a whole different role. IMO deathwing are better in multiples than BKs are. I run 2 units of BKs fwiw.

[Tiger9gamer]

Also, adding on the knight thing, they make the perfect body guard for most terminator armor and power armor HQs because they can lock shields with an IC and buff him to T5. in a tournament they crushed the Lord of Change hard with only three guys left in the squad, so they are really good. Also, in my experiences, I think they would be better with more guys, because they would be even harder to put down!

[Nemo vas Varya]

The problem I have with DWK is that they NEED a Raider to be effective, as Deepstriking them does expose them to shooting and there is nothing they can do about. Going all out with a raider at least puts them in assault range in round 2, and the raider can still snap fire. In the end, I will eventually buy myself a DWK kit, but it will be to get access to awesome looking storm shields, and a plasma cannon, which will get folded into a normal termie squad. (My ideal DW Termie squad is a Cyclone dude with TH/SS, Sarge with Th/SS, then three straight up shooty termies. Also a popular variance for me is two th/ss, one with cyclone, shooty sarge with power sword, and two shooty termie dudes.)

 

Of course, I run only one or two termie squads, so I value flexibility with how I use them, in a full DW list, you have a lot more options in how you outfit your termies.

[Tiger9gamer]

well, needless to say, the DWK in a Raider is almost perfect for a mech army. it provides offense as well as a good counter Defence, and if you play it right it can take a lot of pressure off some other models.

 

 

Also, it can add much needed dakka/flamers

[Artemid]

~shrug~ If 5 termies deepstrike and blow the enemy commander off the board, or immobilize a demolisher, or do something else useful, and then additionally soak up an entire round of IG shooting before they go down...that's well worth the 240 or so points...remember, the IG only get six rounds of shooting, and the earlier they are, the heavier...so if you drop in on turn one and zorch something, then he wastes an entire turn dealing with five models, then, yeah, they're dead, but so is his hope of winning.  You can toss out anecdotes about exceptionally effective rounds of enemy shooting all you want.  Hell, I once lost five termies to ten ratling snipers.  But on average, it's going to take 36 BS3 flashlight shots to fell one termie.  That's two full squads of gardsmen at close range firing in concert to peel off one model.  You can count on five deepstriking termies to make a mess of the enemy battle plan, pop a couple kraks into the side of the hydra that was supposed to shoot down your dark talon when it arrives later, and then have 1-2 termies actually survive all the small arms fire the entire enemy army can throw their way.  Just don't drop the termies where a demolisher can pieplate them, and you'll be fine!

 

Two squads in 12", one given First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire! will easily generate a silly number of las shots. I have generally been able to pop open pesky tanks on DS if I can get behind them though, but commanders are usually well bubble wrapped.

[GlauG]

I'm finding that Heavy Flamers with the new TL shooting after Deep Striking make regular DW Terminators more competitive than before, even for the points increase.  10 with Belial is an expensive little deathstar, sure, but two precise rerolling Heavy Flamers plus the rest of the shooting is enough to put a decent amount of hurt on infantry of any kind.  Alternatively, trust in your Ravenwing and go for Turn 2 DWA, but that leaves more enemy shooting on the table from turn 1. 

[Brother Immolator]

 

~shrug~ If 5 termies deepstrike and blow the enemy commander off the board, or immobilize a demolisher, or do something else useful, and then additionally soak up an entire round of IG shooting before they go down...that's well worth the 240 or so points...remember, the IG only get six rounds of shooting, and the earlier they are, the heavier...so if you drop in on turn one and zorch something, then he wastes an entire turn dealing with five models, then, yeah, they're dead, but so is his hope of winning.  You can toss out anecdotes about exceptionally effective rounds of enemy shooting all you want.  Hell, I once lost five termies to ten ratling snipers.  But on average, it's going to take 36 BS3 flashlight shots to fell one termie.  That's two full squads of gardsmen at close range firing in concert to peel off one model.  You can count on five deepstriking termies to make a mess of the enemy battle plan, pop a couple kraks into the side of the hydra that was supposed to shoot down your dark talon when it arrives later, and then have 1-2 termies actually survive all the small arms fire the entire enemy army can throw their way.  Just don't drop the termies where a demolisher can pieplate them, and you'll be fine!

 

Two squads in 12", one given First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire! will easily generate a silly number of las shots. I have generally been able to pop open pesky tanks on DS if I can get behind them though, but commanders are usually well bubble wrapped.

I have seen that bring down a deamon prince pre new chaos marine codex. But you will be surprised at how many ones the chaos player rolled. About the half the dice if I remember it. I had regular TH/SS flinch with a single casualty at worse fire.

INV saves especially 3+ T5 are a hard nut to crack. Heck I ve seen single mutilator drop amidst russ squadrons, survive the shots and proceed to tear the guard a new one.

 

Its a matter of luck no matter what math hammer says.

[Izzuan]

 

 

~shrug~ If 5 termies deepstrike and blow the enemy commander off the board, or immobilize a demolisher, or do something else useful, and then additionally soak up an entire round of IG shooting before they go down...that's well worth the 240 or so points...remember, the IG only get six rounds of shooting, and the earlier they are, the heavier...so if you drop in on turn one and zorch something, then he wastes an entire turn dealing with five models, then, yeah, they're dead, but so is his hope of winning.  You can toss out anecdotes about exceptionally effective rounds of enemy shooting all you want.  Hell, I once lost five termies to ten ratling snipers.  But on average, it's going to take 36 BS3 flashlight shots to fell one termie.  That's two full squads of gardsmen at close range firing in concert to peel off one model.  You can count on five deepstriking termies to make a mess of the enemy battle plan, pop a couple kraks into the side of the hydra that was supposed to shoot down your dark talon when it arrives later, and then have 1-2 termies actually survive all the small arms fire the entire enemy army can throw their way.  Just don't drop the termies where a demolisher can pieplate them, and you'll be fine!

 

Two squads in 12", one given First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire! will easily generate a silly number of las shots. I have generally been able to pop open pesky tanks on DS if I can get behind them though, but commanders are usually well bubble wrapped.

I have seen that bring down a deamon prince pre new chaos marine codex. But you will be surprised at how many ones the chaos player rolled. About the half the dice if I remember it. I had regular TH/SS flinch with a single casualty at worse fire.

INV saves especially 3+ T5 are a hard nut to crack. Heck I ve seen single mutilator drop amidst russ squadrons, survive the shots and proceed to tear the guard a new one.

 

Its a matter of luck no matter what math hammer says.

 

 

...And thats why I plan on getting the other half of my DW Knights soonish. Sure 'striking them can be risky, but now that my regular opponents have seen what they can do they provide a perfect distraction unit :)

[Nemo vas Varya]

~shrug~ If 5 termies deepstrike and blow the enemy commander off the board, or immobilize a demolisher, or do something else useful, and then additionally soak up an entire round of IG shooting before they go down...that's well worth the 240 or so points...remember, the IG only get six rounds of shooting, and the earlier they are, the heavier...so if you drop in on turn one and zorch something, then he wastes an entire turn dealing with five models, then, yeah, they're dead, but so is his hope of winning. You can toss out anecdotes about exceptionally effective rounds of enemy shooting all you want. Hell, I once lost five termies to ten ratling snipers. But on average, it's going to take 36 BS3 flashlight shots to fell one termie. That's two full squads of gardsmen at close range firing in concert to peel off one model. You can count on five deepstriking termies to make a mess of the enemy battle plan, pop a couple kraks into the side of the hydra that was supposed to shoot down your dark talon when it arrives later, and then have 1-2 termies actually survive all the small arms fire the entire enemy army can throw their way. Just don't drop the termies where a demolisher can pieplate them, and you'll be fine!

Two squads in 12", one given First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire! will easily generate a silly number of las shots. I have generally been able to pop open pesky tanks on DS if I can get behind them though, but commanders are usually well bubble wrapped.

I have seen that bring down a deamon prince pre new chaos marine codex. But you will be surprised at how many ones the chaos player rolled. About the half the dice if I remember it. I had regular TH/SS flinch with a single casualty at worse fire.

INV saves especially 3+ T5 are a hard nut to crack. Heck I ve seen single mutilator drop amidst russ squadrons, survive the shots and proceed to tear the guard a new one.

Its a matter of luck no matter what math hammer says.

...And thats why I plan on getting the other half of my DW Knights soonish. Sure 'striking them can be risky, but now that my regular opponents have seen what they can do they provide a perfect distraction unit

Thats a really expensive distraction unit. A cheaper one is a drop pod with some Vets with Melta guns or Flamers depending on the enemy. Less points lost when they get murdered, and if they don't get murdered your opponent starts to wonder why he agreed to have a lobotomy that morning. For a squad full of combi-meltas (they are a sucide squad, why worry about round 2) its 175 points, vs, 235... and the Vets will get to shoot at something. If your meta has more hordes then vehicles, bring the combi-flamers instead.

They will get murdered, because even if their special weapon load is blown, 10 bolter shots ignored in your backfield is still bad. Krak grenades in assault of your vehicles is bad. Letting your enemy have linebreaker is just stupid.

When making suicide units, make them cheap, and front loaded. Don't worry about the turn after they arrive, they are not meant to be alive at that point.

Marines don't need suicide units, especially Dark Angels. Keep that in mind.

Again, the Knights are best off riding in a Raider, knocking on the front door step and assaulting out as flamers turn your enemies world into a living hell, while shooty termies land behind them and pick micro rockets into regions of the body best left unexploded.

Just my opinion and advice though.

[Brother Immolator]

Problem is the melta squad is fire and forget turn 2. Whereass the Terminator squad will survive and wreck something next round. That means: 1 turn of shooting and one destroyed/tied unit. By that time your opponent will have the terminators juggling and trolling behind his lines, and the rest of your army doing what you wanted it to do.  In comparison the melta gunners will destroy a vehicle and thats it.

Also I have to say that those melta guns are useless vs Nids or demons.

 

Just my 2c.

[Interrogator Stobz]

It seems as though if you are going to go aggressive styles; give him some form of backfield distractions and charge your hammer up the guts to overload his target priority membrane.

No change really ;) Choice of units is a personal thing, some like green and cheap some like white and tough some like black and speedy. Our lovely dex allows all choices, ain't it great to have choice now :P

 

OP: I'm loving the combined wings approach, imho take some DW of any type, deliver them as appropriate, take some RWK to force a clumped midfield deployment in the enemy and harass their flanks, take some green dudes with or without DW/RW support to drive hard at the baddies all at the same time. No half hearted aggression, all or nothing!!!

 

FWIW: I traditionally play more of a water based style and like to absorb, react and disrupt. But our new dex requires changes in all things :tu:

[Izzuan]

I used to put my Knights in a raider...Opponents saw what happens when a redeemer full of knights+IC gets close to their lines, and they will go to GREAT lengths to remove the Raider in their first turn of shooting. Also, most of my games are Three-Way death brawls, so that changes my meta a little bit. The knights are a distraction that isnt neccessarily suicidal :)

 

(my main enemies are CSM, Crons, BA, and the CSM player has gotten into Guard)

[Jehoel]

The problem with a squad of DW Knights in a Landraider is that you need two or more raiders or the raider becomes the suicide/distraction unit. One of the players in my local area tried to add a single, 6 man DW Knights squad in a Redeemer to his foot-slogging DW force. Stubborn bugger played it that way for 6 days of 2 games a day. The Redeemer died first turn every game after the first game, often in the first turn. I finally got him to try (just once, I said) deepstriking the DW Knights behind the opposing force. Those 6 Knights were his MVPs by killing the enemy warlord and half of the enemy backfield area. He dropped the Landraider from his list and now drops 2 five man Knights, sometimes with an Interrogator-Chaplain in one squad. Only force that he has any real trouble with is the Nid swarm list that our only WaaC player uses.

[march10k]

 

~shrug~ If 5 termies deepstrike and blow the enemy commander off the board, or immobilize a demolisher, or do something else useful, and then additionally soak up an entire round of IG shooting before they go down...that's well worth the 240 or so points...remember, the IG only get six rounds of shooting, and the earlier they are, the heavier...so if you drop in on turn one and zorch something, then he wastes an entire turn dealing with five models, then, yeah, they're dead, but so is his hope of winning.  You can toss out anecdotes about exceptionally effective rounds of enemy shooting all you want.  Hell, I once lost five termies to ten ratling snipers.  But on average, it's going to take 36 BS3 flashlight shots to fell one termie.  That's two full squads of gardsmen at close range firing in concert to peel off one model.  You can count on five deepstriking termies to make a mess of the enemy battle plan, pop a couple kraks into the side of the hydra that was supposed to shoot down your dark talon when it arrives later, and then have 1-2 termies actually survive all the small arms fire the entire enemy army can throw their way.  Just don't drop the termies where a demolisher can pieplate them, and you'll be fine!

 

Two squads in 12", one given First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire! will easily generate a silly number of las shots. I have generally been able to pop open pesky tanks on DS if I can get behind them though, but commanders are usually well bubble wrapped.

 

Dude, I play guard.  Assuming zero special and heavy weapons, and a sergeant with a lasgun, that's 50 shots, averaging 25 hits, 8 wounds, one failed save.  Stunning.  Getting a second kill is only very slightly more likely than getting zero kills.

 

 

The problem with a squad of DW Knights in a Landraider is that you need two or more raiders or the raider becomes the suicide/distraction unit. One of the players in my local area tried to add a single, 6 man DW Knights squad in a Redeemer to his foot-slogging DW force. Stubborn bugger played it that way for 6 days of 2 games a day. The Redeemer died first turn every game after the first game, often in the first turn. I finally got him to try (just once, I said) deepstriking the DW Knights behind the opposing force. Those 6 Knights were his MVPs by killing the enemy warlord and half of the enemy backfield area. He dropped the Landraider from his list and now drops 2 five man Knights, sometimes with an Interrogator-Chaplain in one squad. Only force that he has any real trouble with is the Nid swarm list that our only WaaC player uses.

 

I agree that a second raider is needed...but I don't see that as a weakness.  I see it as reinforcing strength. 

 

I put Belial plus melee squad (two claws, two hammers, and HF/CF) in one crusader, and eight knights in the other.  DWA of two tactical termie squads with assault cannons is scheduled for turn two.  Now the enemy has a problem.  Try (they are venerable, after all) to pop both, and you won't pop either, or at least will let the dice gods dictate which one you get lucky against...so do you go for bels's with the teleportation homer and the warlord VP on board, or do you go for the one with not five, but EIGHT knights on board.  Scylla and Charybdis, anyone?  And should you fail to pop at least one, you eat four hurribolters, four twinlinked ass cannons, and eight twinlinked stormbolters on turn two, followed by a charge of fourteen termies, of which eight are knights and one is a named character.  My full 1850 points against one of your flanks.  It's a bloodbath.  Alpha striking just one venerable land raider is yeoman's work.  If you can pop both and force me out of my game plan (really, one assaulty squad plus the ten tactical termies is all I need to ruin your day) before the hammer drops on turn two, you have earned the opportunity to win the game.  If you let me mass two crusaderloads of pain and a scatter-free drop of ten more termies at the point of my choosing on turn two, it's over.

 

PS:  The answer is to target the knights' crusader...if you pop belial's, you've likely just reprogrammed him to hold a near objective instead of attacking, whereas the knights would have no choice but to run towards you, because they're useless if they aren't killing, while Belial's unit is at least scoring.

[Brother Immolator]

My only problem with the LRs is how I deal with them (I dont own one I proxied a Black Templar 6 las one as a crusader for a couple of battles).

And that includes either rending and melta bombing it to death with the deathwing knights (an act I loath but works), sending a ravenwing squadron to melta it, or deepstrike a reserve melta speeder on a suicide errant. Generally speaking those are biker army tactics (and granted you wont see em that much outside DA those days), but I have come to see the LRs as a bit of an expensive liability because of it.

My crusader has managed to reach the enemy line both times, barely and discorge its load, but I am not a fan. The fact that I need the cost of another term squad for transport purposes and that it will be almost useless for a couple of rounds appals me. I rather ditch thepoints to enlarge the DWks, or attach a libby and chaplain with them. Rerolls on smite are simply too good to ignore

Now with the new deamons and the rust something power that the Nurglites are capable of spamming they can work excactly as the blackknights in dismantling vehicles (swap melta bombs and rending for increased armor penetration), and the plague flies are as mobile.

Now thats one kind of tactic, as deamon face Stobz said, it all depends on preference and style.

EDIT: Added this after March40k posted:

2 Crusader loads are an intimidating sight on the battlefield, but you are playing the elite game completely then. Half your army is holed up into two mobile bunkers that HAVE to speed on the enemies deployment zone to get anything out of them.

That means: Eldar and Deldar will most likely own both with their lances and dark lances. Not to say the least fast transports zooming and deploying fire dragons. Nurgle plagues as I said can also play open the can now. Necrons can still glance vehicles to death, admittedly at a higher cost to themselves but thay why triarch stalkers are for. I will stop with the paradigms and condence MHO here:

Consetrating your eags in one basket you are giving your enemy the laxity of forgoing to play target priority. He knows what to target and with what turn one. The game becomes thus: Stop the LRs and force them to footslog (and IMHO it will be so, venerable wont save the hull point merely the result).

:D

[march10k]

Oh, I agree that being venerable won't stop hull point stripping...but until you've tried to handle two venerable land raiders, only one of which need last until the end of turn two for me to virtually auto-win, don't be so dismissive!  it's really really hard to kill them both.  The point of deliberately going second is to see your opponent's deployment before you place your (two) models on the board.  Avoiding his antitank fire entirely is nearly impossible, but minimizing it to the point where it's virtually impossible for him to kill both tanks and very hard for him to get even one...that's child's play when you deploy second.  The other virtue of going second is that for two entire turns, God willing, he has nothing but AV14 vehicles to shoot at.  his antipersonnel fire is useless for two turns, and then you're in melee!  Yes, necrons and point-ears, not to mention Tau, have an easier time dealing with land raiders.  But, as you say, the list is a very hard one, and not one that I'll often field outside of a tournament setting (thus far, it's been revenge matches against chaos marines who spanked me when their codex was new!), and so eldar will be virtually nonexistent, and necrons also somewhat scarce.

 

And if that's not enough...there's always the option to drop two knights for a techmarine with power field generator...now you have two venerable crusaders with a 4+ invulnerable save, and you still have six knights in one and belial plus six melee termies in the other...

[Aleax]

Hi all, thanks for the input, appreciate it.

When I was saying that DW is fragile points cost-wise, is because a 2+ save is two times better than a 3+ save for sure, but their cost is not 30 points-ish, it's three times the cost of the tactical marine. So as pointed out, DW is vulnerable to mass enemy firing, and this not counting plasma. Same for the storm bolters, sure they are great, but their possible advantage is at 13" up to 24" range (or up to 30" while moving which is great), and then it's two shots, but 3 tactical marines comes with 3 shoots at this range anyway (or 6 shoots at 12" range, or up to 18" while moving), so tactical marines offer more firepower for their point cost.

Of course DW do have advantages, they can DS, they can move and fire, etc, they chew the 3+ save of power armoured armies out there, and I think I will field one squad anyways no matter what, I play DA, or we play DA, after all.

As of taking DW knights, they are more expensive, and yes they get their strikes once a game, but my list won't have the points left I guess, unless I use RW instead of BK..., I have to think about it.

Edit = fielding LR or LRs is not possible for me I guess, I am all for mass "green" marines, this helps to counter bad luck strings, the more models I have, the more comfortable I am with.

Cheers all.