godking Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 This scenario is based in part on Angrons verbal beatdown of Guilliman in betrayer. When he in my eyes rightly pointed out Guilliman's the hypocricy and inconsistency in Guillimans view of courage. What would have happened if Guilliman landed on Nuceria and Angron landed on Macragge ? (And yes i am well awarer that where the Primarchs landed was somewaht predetermined this is just a what if scenario) To make it interesting Angron is found and raised by the wildmen of Macragge. Guilliman is found and raised by house Thal'kr as a scion of Thal,kr eventually becoming its leader. How does a not lobotomised Angron progress on Macragge ? How does Guilliman progress on a planet which has no issue with lobotomising slaves to fight for them and where the ''civilised'' cities are not unified ? What happens when eventually the emperor finds them ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 "Angron" would be trained in the academies and taught in warfare, politics, sciene and philosophy by the wise men of Macragge. He wouuld also be named "Roboute Guilliman" by his foster father. So in the end, "Roboute Guilliman" would turn out as a scholarly statesman and warrior king. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3329749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted March 17, 2013 Author Share Posted March 17, 2013 "Angron" would be trained in the academies and taught in warfare, politics, sciene and philosophy by the wise men of Macragge. He wouuld also be named "Roboute Guilliman" by his foster father. So in the end, "Roboute Guilliman" would turn out as a scholarly statesman and warrior king. No in my scenario Angron is found and raised by the wildmen of Macragge not the men of the civilized kingdom. There is no guarantee of Angron being taught by the civilized wise men of Macragge. Infact given that he was raised by the wild men of Macragge its more likely that he does the same as Jaghatai Khan and destroys the civilized Kingdom of Macragge and replaces it with his own. Guilliman on the other hand is raised as an elite on Nuceria among people who see no issue with lobotomising slaves for gladiatoral combat. With cities in perpetual war amongst each other. Guilliman given that he is a Primach not lobotomised would eventually conquer the whole planet however given that he grew up on an entirely different planet then Macragge his outlook and opinions would be wildy different then that of of the Guilliman of the primary timeline. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3329786 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 Actually, from the examples of Perturabo and Konrad Curze it seems the Emperor had named at least some of the Primarchs (and implanted knowledge of said name in their minds) prior to the Scattering, so Angron Guilliman and Roboute I'm Too Angry For A Last Name aren't impossible. Although not in the scenario OP has laid out. I think Roboute Thal'kr and his Legion become much different than the canon Ultramarines. Only Patricians, Astartes created from planetary aristocracy, are allowed to achieve officer rank. Plebeian Marines are line troopers, no exceptions. Also, the Legion maintains a specialized shock/terror assault unit of those who have disgraced themselves and proven they are useless for anything except bleeding for their betters. These Astartes are given the Butcher's Nails, placed in the vanguard, and keep sedated when not in combat. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3329852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Roboutte would be more or less the same. He would unite his planets, make reforms, bans gladiator figths etc. Angron, on the other hand, could be a second Leman Russ or Jaghatai Khan instead of a mindless berserker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3330167 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Angron would be great in logistics, and Guiliman would be great in dueling... But not so much as they are now... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3330346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Angron would rebel for sensibly the same fundamental reasons, minus the bitter resentment. Roboute would remain loyal, but considerably nastier than he was before, and optimize the Black Ships into delivering 10000 unlucky sods every day, which would provide a significant boost to the Emprah's psychic abilities. Oh, and Macragge would be less than idyllic with Space Spartacus in charge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3330413 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 Roboutte would be more or less the same. He would unite his planets, make reforms, bans gladiator figths etc. Angron, on the other hand, could be a second Leman Russ or Jaghatai Khan instead of a mindless berserker. Why would Roboute ban gladiator fights ? Nuceria Roboute would most likely due to his upbringing see no evil in having lobotomised slaves fight to the death. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3330415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
karden00 Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Did somebody say LOGISTICS!??? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3330474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Did somebody say LOGISTICS!???Ctrl+f reveals you and DarthMako did. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3330479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 "Angron" would be trained in the academies and taught in warfare, politics, sciene and philosophy by the wise men of Macragge. He wouuld also be named "Roboute Guilliman" by his foster father. So in the end, "Roboute Guilliman" would turn out as a scholarly statesman and warrior king. +1 If it's a straight swap, we'd see a straight swap. Sure, nature vs. nurture would say that there would be some difference, but how can we really say what traits are derived from which? Changing the manner in which they are found on their homeworlds in such a swap defeats the purpose of Angron's tirade. If Guilliman was put in Angron's position, we'd have an Angron that looks remarkably like if canon Guilliman had techno-dreadlocks. If Guilliman was found there, but not in the same manner Angron was, then he'd become something different. So would have Angron if he was found in the same manner as the changed Guilliman, making the comparison moot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3330539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Given that Angron's gene sons the War Hounds favored chain axes and had to be reprimanded by the Emperor for practicing decimatio on their allied Army cohorts even before being reunited with Dad it seems that at least some of the XII Primarch's savagery was in the blood. At the very least Maccrage-Angron would have burned the entire kingdom in response to Konor's assassination. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3330548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Roboutte would be more or less the same. He would unite his planets, make reforms, bans gladiator figths etc. Angron, on the other hand, could be a second Leman Russ or Jaghatai Khan instead of a mindless berserker. Why would Roboute ban gladiator fights ? Nuceria Roboute would most likely due to his upbringing see no evil in having lobotomised slaves fight to the death. Because primarchs aren't maternal twins. Roboutte was created as a ruler and a strategist by the Emperor. Being raised in a society that regards gladiator fight as a normal sport doesn't mean Roboutte would keep this tradition ( I think I made a grammar mess here). Reforms are done in every society. In the Roman Empire, dying in arena was not uncommon, yet Marcus Aurelius banned fighting to death. A wise ruler can change the habits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3330550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Did somebody say LOGISTICS!???Ctrl+f reveals you and DarthMako did. hahaha that is why I said it:-) But try to picture it - Angron, great at logistics P.S. In my gaming club we have a password : LOGISTICS!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3330589 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 As you said in the first post the Primarchs ended up on homeworlds that were "appropriate" to them. The conduct of the pre-Primarch discovery War Hounds shows a certain amount of Angron's savagery was innate and not due to his upbringing. Being raised in a slightly less awful manner whether among the barbarian tribes of Macragge or among the cities he's not going to have the power of LOGISTICS, it's just not who he is. However he would certainly be substantially saner and more useful without the Butchers Nails. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/272888-primarchs-trading-places-angron-guilliman/#findComment-3331626 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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