Morticon Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 This came up today and I was wondering if some people had thoughts. In our gaming group we had a big discussion of whether or not Eldar can cast fortune on DE units. We eventually came to the decision/conclusion that we couldn't - however, the group maintained that casting an Eldar power on a harlequin unit (for example) that is joined by an Archon is fine. However, it was only today when the question was raised again that I remembered the discussion in the OR regarding BA DoA and joining battle brother ICs with jump packs. I remember what essentially prevented the SM/DA/SW etc IC from making use of the squads rule was that it was argued to no longer counted as a BA squad. This is analogous it seems. The exact same would seem to apply here. An Eldar squad is not an Eldar squad if it has a Dark Eldar character in it. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 17, 2013 Share Posted March 17, 2013 No. When an IC is attached to a unit, they become part of that unit for all intents and purposes. The difference with Bangels is if a Special Rule applies to an IC without it, or not (which isn't the same as what 'race' a unit counts as). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 An Eldar unit is an Eldar unit. A Dark Eldar unit is a Dark Eldar unit. It will never be otherwise. If a C:E character joins a C:DE unit, it is still a C:DE unit. If a C:DE character joins a C:E unit, it is still a C:E unit. Eldar powers can only be cast on Eldar units, not Dark Eldar units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 An Eldar unit is an Eldar unit. A Dark Eldar unit is a Dark Eldar unit. It will never be otherwise. If a C:E character joins a C:DE unit, it is still a C:DE unit. If a C:DE character joins a C:E unit, it is still a C:E unit. Eldar powers can only be cast on Eldar units, not Dark Eldar units. Meaning the Harlequin Archon Tag Team is Legal? (Since it is still a C:E unit) Or does the Archon just not benefit from the power? Either way it is the most obnoxious case of power gaming I have seen this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 An Eldar unit is an Eldar unit. A Dark Eldar unit is a Dark Eldar unit. It will never be otherwise. If a C:E character joins a C:DE unit, it is still a C:DE unit. If a C:DE character joins a C:E unit, it is still a C:E unit. Eldar powers can only be cast on Eldar units, not Dark Eldar units. Meaning the Harlequin Archon Tag Team is Legal? (Since it is still a C:E unit) Or does the Archon just not benefit from the power? Either way it is the most obnoxious case of power gaming I have seen this year. As long as the Harlequins are taken from Codex: Eldar then I don't see any issues and the Archon would indeed benefit from the power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 I don't have my Codex: Eldar to hand, but if it states that "a unit from Codex: Eldar..." then this could fall under the same ruling as the DE Pain Tokens only affecting DE models (as only DE models have the "power from pain" SR). In other words only the models puchased from Codex:Eldar could benefit from Fortune. Harlequins are a sore point as they are available in both Codices, however if the above holds to be true, then you could only fortune them if they've been purchased from Codex: Eldar. One could argue that an Eldar unit containing an attached Archon is technically no longer a purely Eldar unit, as it now contains a model that have been purchased from Codex: DE. However by RAW it does also state that an independent character is treated as being a part of the unit he joins in all aspects. However (again), an Eldar unit with an attached Archon couldn't embark a Falcon or Wave Serpent because it's no longer a purely Eldar unit (presence of an allied character - referencing the battle brothers part of the allies rules) So that does lend some credence to the unit no longer counting as a purely "Eldar Unit". It's yet another case of debatable ruling by GW as it could be argued either way. I would suggest a house rule (until it's FAQed) or a dice off if no agreement can be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Fortune can only be cast on 'Eldar' Units. A unit of Harlequins taken from Codex: Eldar is an Eldar unit. As battle brothers to the Dark Eldar, a Dark Eldar IC can join a unit of Codex Eldar Harlequins. Doing so, as per the ally rules, he becomes a part of the unit for all intents and purposes. As the unit is a Codex Eldar unit, it can be the target for Fortune. As part of the unit, the Dark Eldar IC now benefits from the Fortune cast on the unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Bingo. Archon + Harlequins + Fortune is a big one I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted March 18, 2013 Author Share Posted March 18, 2013 Sorry, but why then does DoA not work? The rule states that a blood angel unit with DoA may XYZ. In this very forum the only argument against this was that it is no longer a BA unit as it was a BA unit with a SM unit. You cant have it work the one way and not the other with the exact same conditions and wording. confused ><: help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Sorry, but why then does DoA not work? The rule states that a blood angel unit with DoA may XYZ. In this very forum the only argument against this was that it is no longer a BA unit as it was a BA unit with a SM unit. You cant have it work the one way and not the other with the exact same conditions and wording. confused ><: help! The BA FAQ knocks that one on the head: Page 23 – Descent of Angels.Change this entry to read “A Blood Angels unit composed entirely of models with this special rule can re-roll failed reserve rolls if arriving by Deep Strike using its Jump Packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 GW specifically addressed that issue. They have not addressed what happens in the Eldar/Dark Eldar case, nor have they bothered to answer what happens when a regular character joins the Legion of the Damned in reserves. The answer for those is to let the character gain all benefits of the squad, as he is a member for all intents and purposes. It's like many of the Tyranid FAQ answers that screwed them over for no particular reason, or the Eldar one about psychic powers in vehicles. GW makes the same things in different armies different all the time. There is no consistency in the game or its rulings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 GW makes the same things in different armies different all the time. There is no consistency in the game or its rulings. From the Sisters of Battle FAQ: Q: Can allied Independent Characters benefit from Acts of Faith if they have joined an affected Sisters of Battle unit? (p29) A: No. Q: Do Acts of Faith affect allies who have joined or been joined by Sisters of Battle independent characters or units? (White Dwarf, August 2011 Page 94) A: Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 18, 2013 Share Posted March 18, 2013 Don't let the left hand know what the right hands doing... Mmmmm, Lady's fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted March 19, 2013 Author Share Posted March 19, 2013 Sorry, but why then does DoA not work? The rule states that a blood angel unit with DoA may XYZ. In this very forum the only argument against this was that it is no longer a BA unit as it was a BA unit with a SM unit. You cant have it work the one way and not the other with the exact same conditions and wording. confused ><: help! The BA FAQ knocks that one on the head: > Page 23 – Descent of Angels.Change this entry to read “A Blood Angels unit composed entirely of models with this special rule can re-roll failed reserve rolls if arriving by Deep Strike using its Jump Packs. It says "a Blood Angels unit..." though. So for that faq to have any bearing, a SM ic + BA unit must = BA unit. Is the argument that a SM + BA unit = a BA unit, just not a BA unit composed entirely of models with that rule? Is that the argument? I think that would make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Yes. It's still a BA unit (including the SM IC), but not all the models have DoA, thus it doesn't work. If the SM IC somehow had DoA, then it would work just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 19, 2013 Share Posted March 19, 2013 Sorry, but why then does DoA not work? The rule states that a blood angel unit with DoA may XYZ. In this very forum the only argument against this was that it is no longer a BA unit as it was a BA unit with a SM unit. You cant have it work the one way and not the other with the exact same conditions and wording. confused ><: help! The BA FAQ knocks that one on the head: > Page 23 – Descent of Angels.Change this entry to read “A Blood Angels unit composed entirely of models with this special rule can re-roll failed reserve rolls if arriving by Deep Strike using its Jump Packs. It says "a Blood Angels unit..." though. So for that faq to have any bearing, a SM ic + BA unit must = BA unit. Is the argument that a SM + BA unit = a BA unit, just not a BA unit composed entirely of models with that rule? Is that the argument? I think that would make sense? Spot on. The bolded part of my rules quote was a clue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted March 20, 2013 Author Share Posted March 20, 2013 Sorry, but why then does DoA not work? The rule states that a blood angel unit with DoA may XYZ. In this very forum the only argument against this was that it is no longer a BA unit as it was a BA unit with a SM unit. You cant have it work the one way and not the other with the exact same conditions and wording. confused ><: help! The BA FAQ knocks that one on the head: <blockquote> > Page 23 – Descent of Angels.Change this entry to read “A Blood Angels unit composed entirely of models with this special rule can re-roll failed reserve rolls if arriving by Deep Strike using its Jump Packs. It says "a Blood Angels unit..." though. So for that faq to have any bearing, a SM ic + BA unit must = BA unit. Is the argument that a SM + BA unit = a BA unit, just not a BA unit composed entirely of models with that rule? Is that the argument? I think that would make sense? Spot on. The bolded part of my rules quote was a clue Ya, but the clue wouldnt have helped if there wasnt a rule stating the SM unit becomes a BA unit when he joins. :P Thanks for the help guys :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 From what I can see, when dealing with the Farseer/Archon tag team this pro-tip should be borne in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.