Small raptor unit

[John_f]

I´m considering small units of raptor as a sort of semi-alpha strike. You can keep them fairly cheap but still carry a decent push. The set up I'm considering is:

 

5 raptors w. 2 melta, combimelta and meltabomb for serg. for 130p. Deepstrike the unit close to the stuff you need to die. You can do the same for plasma if hunting terminators or other heavy infantry.

 

Has anyone tried this setup? Is deepstrike to unreliable?

[Dam13n]

Well look at it this way:

 

- Arriving from reserve - 2/3 chance of showing up turn 2 and again in turn 3 (automatic turn 4)

 

- Deep Strike - Chaos has no locator beacons (except the key artefact, and that is a tricky thing to use effectively). You do have a 1/3 chance of a "hit" but if you scatter you will average 7" in a random direction.

 

- Meltas - most effective at ranges of up to 6" (for 2D6 AP) so scattering 7" can make them innefective, or if you're really unlucky (and because you'll be wanting to land close to the enemy) they'll mishap.

 

Also 3 Terminators with 3 Combi-meltas will do the same as your unit of Raptors, they're cheaper and more survivable once on-table.

 

Personally I like Chosen for the role you're suggesting. Combined with Ahriman/Huron for assured "infiltrate D3 units" a unit of Chosen with Meltaguns in a Rhino is a good Alpha strike unit, so long as you have 1st turn. This is because even if you have to deploy 18" away, thanks to the 6" move of the Rhino plus 6" debark, that places you ~6" away, spot on what you need for killy death :P .

 

The real problem is that Chaos don't have drop pods. Drop Pods delivering a unit (of Sternguard or Wolf Guard/Grey Hunters) on turn 1 is a proper Alpha Strike, whilst a unit (maybe) showing up on turn 2 isn't an Alpha Strike (because you aren't hitting the enemy before he has a chance to act).

 

Finally (as I'm sure Jeske would point out) that unit of Raptors is using a fast attack choice, and Drakes/Bikes are the best options in fast attack for CSM with Nurgle Spawn coming in 3rd (just).

 

Now I love the new plastic Raptor models, and if that's your real justification for wanting them in your army, then I'd say go for it. If we all played the same army, 40k would get boring, fast.

 

Laterz...

[Fibonacci]

They will work and do the job you are expecting of them.  Raptors are an ok uint but they are competing for a limited amount of FA slots with some better units.  Also, one of the raptor's best uses -- deep strike tank hunters like you are asking about -- can be done with 3 terminators from the elite choice for the same point cost as 5 raptors.

 

If you have the FA slot to give them or just want to use your raptor models, sure, go ahead.  They will work fine; I have done this myself with some success.

[Redtoof]

This unit will work much better if you don't deep strike them. You are paying the points for those jump packs so you might as well use them to move up the board. Think of them as bikes that can't turbo but are easier to hide and can jump over impassable terrain.

[totgeboren]

It depends on what he is facing. Deep striking to take out hidden artillery or Eldar Waveserpents for example is a fairly good idea, though if you are facing someone who is a bit more aggressive, the risks of deep striking will most likely not pay off in comparison to just jumping forwards. If we compare with a deep striker showing up turn two. Turn one, they jump 12"+run. Turn two they jump 12" and shoot. So a threat range of 25"-30" plus the range of the meltaguns, not to mention they could also assault. If your enemy is moving towards you, or even just standing still, the Raptors will be in a better position for anti-tank work if they deployed on the board than if they deep struck. I guess it depends on the amount of terrain too.

If they arrive by deep strike, you need to place them so they can take something that is further away than about 30" from your lines, and which will not need the follow-up assault to finish off for them to be worth it.

 

In many ways, Deep strike termies make more sense, as they are slow, so gain a lot from deep striking, gaining access to units they would otherwise not be able to attack, whilst being resilient enough to soak up quite a bit of firepower.

 

Raptors should only use deep strike when you need an extra deep striker (like when facing enemy artillery which our lascannons can't reach), not as the default tactic. I think.

That they have the option for deep strike is great, especially in pick-up games, but they don't feel very well suited for it to be honest.

 

On the other hand, Raptors on the table is Raptors that can be killed, and Raptors that can be avoided. Raptors in the sky have a bit of the 'out of sight out of mind' thing going for them, meaning your opponent will probably not really take them into account when moving around.

[derpasaurus]

My raptors are always working out for at least one big kill. Whether it's a blob of troops camping an objective or a big scary tank (mine are melta toting, too). They can cover a lot of ground, and only need to make dangerous terrain tests if they start or end in it. Got a giant building in your way? PERFECT. End movement behind it so you can't be shot without being singled out, then jump over it next turn, no need to go around. 

I have terrible luck w/ deep strike, because there's no reliable way to make it work, unlike some codices that have multiple ways, we have one INCREDIBLY conditional one. And like was said, you're paying for jump packs, might as well use em. I like to roll Huron so I often give myself an extra edge by infiltrating them. They move fast and hit hard so they draw a lot of fire, and unlike everyone's precious terminators they don't have 2+/5++, but they have a job and they do it well. I find them very fun to use, myself.

edit: typo. 

[happybounce]

I prefer to use them in a mob of 10, but my buddy has a fairly shooty chaos army that he runs them in, and they usually make up their points.  What everyone says about not always deepstriking is true--against me he never deep strikes, as he knows I'll be there in a turn!  

One cool thing he does that I haven't seen anyone else do is he puts the Mark of Khorne on them, for 10 points total.  In our last game they didn't end up shooting anything, but they charged in to an ongoing combat with like 18 attacks and tied me up long enough to kill the character that was running with them!

[John_f]

Thank you for your input guys. I will consider terminators for the same roll.

[zyl-]

as a late entry, I run a unit that is just about the same, but I don't use meltabombs or a combimelta. It is my thinking that 5 meq all alone will do one of 2 things. 1 is die quick to focus fire (common), and 2 is get somewhat ignored. Also, since you can't use the meltabombs after deepstriking, it seems wasteful.

 

Overall, I find that the unit can usually make it's points back, but I feel like it dies too fast, and we have other units that can fill the role. This doesn't stop me from running them, though. I made custom models that are too pretty.

[derpasaurus]

Mine are Khorne marked, leader w/ 2 claws & melta bombs, 2 melta, and 10 strong, usually. With Vets I get 4 attacks on a charge rerolling misses. pretty awesome, yeah. They get a bit expensive that way, but with up to like 41 attacks on a charge and 31 after melta overwatch if charged, they're pretty dangerous. It's just always fun, and I managed to kill a 6 strong deathwing terminator squad with them yesterday, lol. Of course my 2 claw champ won +1 bs :/

[totgeboren]

Mine are Khorne marked, leader w/ 2 claws & melta bombs, 2 melta, and 10 strong, usually. With Vets I get 4 attacks on a charge rerolling misses. pretty awesome, yeah. They get a bit expensive that way, but with up to like 41 attacks on a charge and 31 after melta overwatch if charged, they're pretty dangerous. It's just always fun, and I managed to kill a 6 strong deathwing terminator squad with them yesterday, lol. Of course my 2 claw champ won +1 bs :/

 

I just mentioned this in another thread, but I'm pretty sure you can't counter-assault and overwatch at he same time. It's one or the other.

[Fibonacci]

Do you have a page reference for this because what I see as far as Counter Assault rules and Overwatch rules is that there is no restriction. 

[totgeboren]

I'm at work, but I'll look it up when I get home. I am pretty sure I read it somewhere, I think it was under the rules for counter-assault.

[Fibonacci]

I'm at work, but I'll look it up when I get home. I am pretty sure I read it somewhere, I think it was under the rules for counter-assault.

Not that I am seeing.

Unit with one model having this rule ...

Pass Leadership when charged ...

+1 A

Cannot counter-assault if already locked in combat ...

 

That's it.

[totgeboren]

 

I'm at work, but I'll look it up when I get home. I am pretty sure I read it somewhere, I think it was under the rules for counter-assault.

Not that I am seeing.

Unit with one model having this rule ...

Pass Leadership when charged ...

+1 A

Cannot counter-assault if already locked in combat ...

 

That's it.

 

And you seem to be absolutely correct. I could have sworn that I read it somewhere, but I can't find it anywhere, which is fine by me! My MoK marines suddenly became better, so thanks for pointing this out to me! :D

[Slayer le Boucher]

Raptors are nice when you don't have much points left in your list, like you said, they cost 130pts for 5 marines models who jumps and shoot, so its not a bad deal.

 

BUt yeah, i would be more inclined to use their packs and make them jump, then DSing them.

 

DS they will come "maybe" turn 2, if deployed, they will also be in range of something in turn 2, but they still can charge, don't risk suffers or destruction from mishaps, or don't end in an awkward position admist several ennemy units, with no chance of doing anything.

 

For such "Alpha strikes" or "Suicidal Jumps" use Termicids, more resilient and effectif.

 

Or if you really are in the DS thing with lots or Termies, Raptors, Oblits etc, you can use the Dimensional Key.

[Sception]

If you're just looking for some cheap tank hunters and have a FA slot left over, I think the bikes win out on their smaller min unit size.  With the same pair of meltaguns they're what, under 100 points?  and with similar overall durability due to better toughness.

 

I don't think raptors are 'bad'.  they work fine.  they're maybe only slightly overpriced - or at least their vets option is, there isn't a unit in the book outside of HQ that that upgrade should cost more than a point on, and it probably should have just been packaged in automatically - not like a point of leadership and situational hatred is even half as good as ATSKNF anyway - but that's another rant.  Apart from that issue, it's not so much that raptors are bad or overpriced so much as that bikes are so similar in so many ways and underpriced (at the very least they should have had to pay extra for their close combat weapons like CSMs do).

 

So yeah, I think you'll to better more often on the table with the same points and slots sunk into bikers.  But then again, your army will look better, cost less money, and still play alright with raptors, so I certainly wouldn't fault anyone who went that route.

[Iron Sage]

I sometimes run them with MoN which costs 20 points per model, functioning pretty much like bikes in many ways. You may call it a "poor mans bike" i guess. Still a good unit.