DIY Guidelines: why and how

[Marquise]

After reading the semi-official DIY guidelines, I walked away scratching my head as I couldn't wrap my head around some of the Do's and Don'ts mainly because I couldn't I don't understand how and why they were developed.

 

Before I get around to my points I want to say that I have been enjoying WH40K since First Edition (aka Rogue Trader). Also, I admit to being only human and therefore can make mistakes and be wrong at times. That being said I trudge on.

 

Creating background fluff for Chapters named by GW but not fleshed out: if a player does this and GW eventually fleshes out that Chapter doesn't mark out what the player did as being wrong, it makes it Non-Canon, which is what was from the beginning.

 

Space wolf Gene-Seed: I highly suspect that the quote from 2nd Edition Space Wolf is quoted out of context. I suspect that quote to be in reference to the Legion being divided during the Second Founding. The older Chapter Founding charts usually went First Founding, Second Founding, Known/Acknowledged Successors (subsequent Foundings with tracable Imperial records and/or offically acknowledged by the First Founding parents). I can not find any fluff to prove/disprove that SW Gene-Seed was/wasn't used in subsequent Foundings, which can mean that imperial have been lost and/ or that the Wolves have not acknowledeged any Foundings using their Gene-Seed.

 

Don't tamper with/mix Geneseed & don't use any other organization other than the High Lords of Terra (including an Inquisitor and rougue Mechanicus): these are actually listed as two seperate Don'ts in the guidlines but they go hand in hand for this point. The novel "Death of Antagonis" sets further precedent for allowing these types of backgrounds in the form of the Exorcists (Loyalists) and the Swords of Epiphany (the failures from the Exorcists program). Although the Inquisitor/rogue Mechanicus combo isn't directly mentioned, it also doesn't directly mention the High Lords of Terra as a whole.

 

With all that being said, how and why were these Do's and Don'ts concieved as guidelines for creating DIY Chapters to be posted in the forums?

 

In closing I'm going to apologize ahead of time for stepping on any toes, the possibility of a lynch mob forming against me, or any other negative reponses to this post. I merely wish to fully comprrehend the guidelines so that I may become more involved in the forum commmunity.

[Octavulg]

Space wolf Gene-Seed: I highly suspect that the quote from 2nd Edition Space Wolf is quoted out of context. I suspect that quote to be in reference to the Legion being divided during the Second Founding. The older Chapter Founding charts usually went First Founding, Second Founding, Known/Acknowledged Successors (subsequent Foundings with tracable Imperial records and/or offically acknowledged by the First Founding parents). I can not find any fluff to prove/disprove that SW Gene-Seed was/wasn't used in subsequent Foundings, which can mean that imperial have been lost and/ or that the Wolves have not acknowledeged any Foundings using their Gene-Seed.

Yes and no.

You may be right on the quote. However, the Space Wolf novels (Battle for the Fang, IIRC) established that it was basically impossible to create Space Wolf successors (it's a long and kind of stupid story, as far as I can tell. But the Space Wolf fans seem to like it). On top of that, C:SM 5e 'graciously' explains how all non-Codex chapters no longer are the source of new successors.

So Space Wolf successors are pretty well-established as not existing.

Don't tamper with/mix Geneseed & don't use any other organization other than the High Lords of Terra (including an Inquisitor and rougue Mechanicus): these are actually listed as two seperate Don'ts in the guidlines but they go hand in hand for this point. The novel "Death of Antagonis" sets further precedent for allowing these types of backgrounds in the form of the Exorcists (Loyalists) and the Swords of Epiphany (the failures from the Exorcists program). Although the Inquisitor/rogue Mechanicus combo isn't directly mentioned, it also doesn't directly mention the High Lords of Terra as a whole.

That's the best you can come up with? What about the Sons of Medusa (just split) and the Steel Confessors (secret Ad Mech founding) and the bit in the BRB 3e about chapters merging? IIRC, Death of Antagonis is generally agreed to be lousy. It doesn't really add much weight to the concept.

The major problem with the whole "special founding" thing, IMO, is that it's usually used completely thoughtlessly in a blatant bid to make the author's chapter seem extra special. It's a substitute for actual character. That, or it's used in ignorance. Neither is really good. It really lets you do nothing that a normal founding doesn't also let you do. Plus, even the Sons of Medusa explains how rare and heretical creating a chapter outside a founding is seen as (and, I would add, uses this unique aspect of their character for precisely dick).

Mixed geneseed is officially confirmed as being seen as heretical (see the Minotaurs listing in IA 10). It's used in the Cursed Founding, but outside it would be highly questionable at best.

With all that being said, how and why were these Do's and Don'ts concieved as guidelines for creating DIY Chapters to be posted in the forums

As I understand it, they're basically things new DIYers do a lot that don't work out very well and add little or nothing to a DIY chapter. Things that should be avoided by new DIYers because they will hinder, not help.

[NightrawenII]

IMO, the "Do's and Don'ts" should be understood as table "Beware Landmines.", it points out things, where the DIYer should be (extra) careful and resourceful in aplication... and even then expect flak from people (ref. female marines).

 

~ NightrawenII

[Aegnor]

In terms of my two cents as a long time lurker and sporadic contributor here at the Liber, the other thing about the do's and don'ts, and indeed the entire Liber Astartes forum/community, is that it is done with a specific objective of adding to and developing a mutually agreed shared universe. If you want to do a background to your guys that is completely different to what's on that list, for instance, making a DIY 2nd Legion that are female marines, no one here is going to try to stop you. We will however point out the ways in which it doesn't fit in with what has evolved as the mutual understanding of the 40k universe here.  Designing a background for a chapter to take part and fit in with this shared undertaking is its own niche form of fun and hobbying joy, but if doing so doesn't match what you're trying to do, don't let it stop you.

 

Of course, as Octovulg and Nightrawen pointed out, the reason many of the don'ts are listed is that the guys who have been here for a while have seen each of those ideas done multiple times and almost always seen them hurt, rather than help, designing a solid DIY background. So they are hopefully some helpful guidelines for people who want to avoid those pitfalls, nothing more.

[Ecritter]

Special Founding ... can't believe Oct forgot the DAs Disciples of Caliban and maybe even the Consecrators (since no real history is known for them).

 

Do's and Dont's ... as others have stated, are here to help not hinder you.  The experience of the group has shown that these things are more a headache then they're worth.  But if you have the ability and the right story .. anything (except female SMs) is possible.

[Octavulg]

The Disciples of Caliban were founded at the request of the DA GM, but it doesn't actually say they were founded outside a founding.

[Ecritter]

The Disciples of Caliban were founded at the request of the DA GM, but it doesn't actually say they were founded outside a founding.

True, but the C:DA says founded late in M37 but does not say as part of or not as part of a founding. One could assume (ha) that if they were part of a founding that GW would have told us.

Anyways, that would either put them between the 22nd and 23rd Foundings or as part of the 23rd if it took place late in M37 as the one source suggests.

[Marquise]

Thanks guys, this has helped a lot. I agree with the majority of the Do's and Don'ts - it was mainly the points I discussed that I was having problems with but I think that has been resolved now.

 

As for female marines, I never understood that concept. Drawing a female marine for fun is fine but female marines have never been playable. I will admit this though: my very first army was based on the SoB blurb found in the very back of Rogue Trader and since there was no force list for SoB back then I simply used the Space Marine force list and the RTB01 beaky marines to represent the force. Yep, I essentially made a flat-chested SoB force but I never once said they were female marines.

[Wulfebane]

Given that athletic women tend to have less fat and more muscle, a female space marine especially would likely be flat-chested anyway.. Or very close. Furthermore, the bulk of power armor could easily accommodate a woman's chest without the need to make boob-cup armor (which looks ridiculous). The only issue with female marine armor would likely be in the hips/codpiece area. Either way, I've never understood the exclusion of females in an astartes chapter other than to cling to GW's antiquated, chauvinistic ideals perpetuated from the 80s.

[Octavulg]

 

Either way, I've never understood the exclusion of females in an astartes chapter other than to cling to GW's antiquated, chauvinistic ideals perpetuated from the 80s.

 

I'm trying to decide which bit is more ridiculous:

 

1) The idea that, in a universe where technology is magic and people are burnt alive and ritually sacrificed on a routine basis, a lack of gender equality is unrealistic. 

 

2) The idea that GW supports the ideals espoused by the organizations in their universe. 

 

3) The idea that you can't have an all-one-gender organization without it somehow being antiquated and chauvinist. 

 

4) The idea that there are no valid reasons for all-male (or gender segregated) military organizations.  

[Brother Tyler]

The most important thing to remember about the "Do's and Don'ts" is that they are opinions and are not in any way binding. In fact, Games Workshop and Forge World (and even Fantasy Flight Games) have repeatedly developed Chapters that incorporate things that players here have lumped into the "Don't" category. Examples include the vast expansion of the 2nd Founding, Darnath Lysander being lost in the Warp (not a Chapter, I know, but something that hardcore Liberites would have pounced upon had someone had the temerity to include it in their own fan-fiction), the Steel Confessors having been created in secret by the Adeptus Mechanicus, the Sons of Medusa created by being broken off of multiple parent Chapters (and not during the 2nd Founding in which this was the norm), the Storm Wardens having a deep dark secret, the Blood Ravens possibly being descended from loyalist Thousand Sons, the Carcharadons Astra possibly having been created using the gene-seed of the World Eaters (and not as a result of the 21st Founding), etc.

 

Realistically, the input of others only matters if you want your DIY to be acceptable to others. If you don't care about whether or not others accept the facts of your DIY, you can simply dismiss their input (hopefully doing so in a polite manner since they are investing time and effort in providing that input in the first place) and focus on input related to the mechanics of the article. Also, you are never going to satisfy everyone. Realizing that you are more likely to receive feedback from those that take issue with your work than from those that like it, you can see where even a majority of negative feedback doesn't necessarily indicate that your work is objectionable to the majority of players.

 

Interestingly enough, I was browsing another website this weekend and someone there made a point that is highly relevant here. They may have intended it to be a jab at us, but it was completely accurate. We, the members of the B&C, don't get to make decisions on what is "canon" and what is not, or what is acceptable and what is not. You may develop something that many players like, but which the group-think here at the B&C has determined is "bad." The input you get here will generally be very good, but it is not unheard of for highly subjective issues to yield a variety of opinions, and on occasion factually incorrect advice has crept into the group-think.

 

One thing that Games Workshop has clearly demonstrated is that the inconsistent and dynamic Warhammer 40,000 game universe not only doesn't make sense, but that it is a universe of exceptions. In this game universe, swords are preferred over guns and a truncheon is just as effective in close combat as a sword. A very broad range of things are possible (even if they might be improbable). This ranges from vampires in space (a common perception of the Blood Angels and their kin) to werewolves in space (a common description of the Space Wolves) to any other number of zany ideas that have been lifted from mythology, religion, literature, and popular culture.

 

And even if something doesn't mesh with whatever the "canon" might be, there's no saying that a DIY has to mesh with it. Games Workshop, after all, has lauded a variety of armies that drew upon other make-believe universes (I recall White Dwarf featuring pictures of Homer Simpson Space Marines and Martian (Mars Attacks) Space Marines, not to mention the elusive Santa Claus Chapter). The Angry Marines are a great parody of Space Marines, and I've seen a number of Space Marine armies with females that, though the lore explicitly states don't exist, I wouldn't mind facing them on the tabletop one bit.

 

So take input on DIYs with a grain of salt. It tends to be very good and is offered with the best of intentions, but it is neither binding nor prescriptive. If you really want to do something, but others keep suggesting that you do something else, make a decision based on what you want. Maybe they'll persuade you that changing something will improve what you are trying to develop, but there are times when you are only changing something to satisfy someone else. In the end, you are the only one that will benefit or suffer from the outcome.

[Marquise]

Thank you, Brother Tyler. You cleared up any lingering doubts I may have had. In all honesty, I've been monitoring several WH40K forums for awhile now and decided to join this one as it has more appeal to me. I'm a firm believer that my participation here is better served if I'm not walking around in confusion or with misunderstandings.

[Octavulg]

Ignore me, I'm here for bug report purposes! Read the next post instead.

 

I must note that no one ever seems to remember that the DIY Guide itself admitting that it's just suggestions right at the beginning (which it has done for at least five years, if the timestamps are to be believed).<br /><br />I must also disagree with Brother Tyler, at least on some points. First of all, he says the DIY Guidelines are only opinions, but he glosses over the bit where they're opinions that were created out of long experience (and which have generally been borne out since). The DIY Guide is opinion, yes, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't bear any weight. It was created by people with a lot of experience at this, updated by someone with a lot of experience at this, and is targeted at people without much experience at this. It's very good advice, which I think sums up both its advantages and disadvantages.<br /><br />I do think it's quite effective for most people. Most of the Don'ts have three things in common: they violate what is generally perceived as canon (a point I will get to later), they are regularly proposed by enterprising young DIY authors, and they are usually included because the author thinks it would make the chapter unique or original or special. You might have noticed the rather oppositional nature of those last two.<br /><br />Most authors want to be unique. Most want to stick (more or less) within canon. And most don't want to look back at this in six months and feel like an idiot (I do not want to talk about my first DIY chapter, and you can't make me). The DIY Guide is very good on that basis. If any of those don't apply to you, it's less useful.<br /><br />Regarding the examples provided of GW breaking the "Don'ts":<br />The vast expansion of the Second Founding is a retcon. The DIY Guide should be updated accordingly.<br /><br />Lysander, to me, looks like GW bringing him up to being a modern character. Before that, he was a mid-M40 character - which made it harder to do stuff with him, I suspect.<br /><br />The Blood Ravens and Space Sharks do what the DIY Guide suggests regarding traitor geneseed - they hint at it, rather than coming out and saying it. No problem there (though I think they'd make more sense as Dark Founding).<br /><br />The Sons of Medusa and Steel Confessors demonstrate two important things. The Sons of Medusa, to me, don't get any real milage out of their creation. It would have been no different if they were a normal Chapter as part of a normal founding (it could have been written easily enough). This, to me, makes it a bad idea, and demonstrates that GW writes bad fluff, too. "GW did it" does not make it a good idea. "GW didn't do it" doesn't make it a bad idea, either, however - and that's important to remember.<br /><br />The Steel Confessors are different in a more important way: the unique aspect of their creation is important, and <em>the consequences of that creation are dealt with</em>. Their unique aspects are a liability, not an advantage, and the Imperium reacts realistically to their existence. If you're going to actually explore "what would being X mean in 40K", then that's a very different thing than throwing it in as part of your chapter just to make them special.<br /><br />Second, GW having done something doesn't necessarily make it a good idea for several reasons:<br />1) Professional authors are no more immune from bad ideas than amateurs.<br />2) GW has the major advantage that they don't have fifteen other people writing variations of the same idea in a month. Their "unique" ideas can, to some extent, stay that way.<br />3) Several of the examples proffered don't quite work. Lysander's being lost in the Warp seems to be an attempt to make him a "modern" character - in his original incarnation, he didn't seem to be one. The Space Sharks and the Blood Ravens hint at traitor genesed, which is how the DIY Guide says to do traitor do something that many young DIYers never do: explores the consequences of the weird thing. The Ad Mech gets in trouble for the Steel Confessors, who are watched closely. Lysander being lost in the Warp appears to have been a tool to bring him into the 40K present.<br /><br />Third, yes, input from others only matters if you care what other people think. On the other hand, if you* don't care what people think, why do you want their opinions on what you wrote? Other people come with the risk of them not liking what you did. This is a forum, not an echo chamber - if you expect people to read what you produced, it's fair for them to expect you to listen to their thoughts on it. You shouldn't change things you like just to satisfy others - but, to some extent, satisfying others must be a goal or you wouldn't be posting here. Expecting people to read things they don't like then provide advice on how to make it better without making it something they'd like better seems to expect an unhealthy level of either masochism or cognitive dissonance.<br /><br />TL;DR: DIY Guide admits it's a Guide, not the rules, and probably works well for most people. Yes, you can ignore almost anyone, but on some level you must care what people think or you wouldn't be posting.

[Octavulg]

Sorry for the double post: I wanted to keep the old one for bug report purposes. Read this one instead, I accidentally kept some old text in the other one.

 

I must note that no one ever seems to remember that the DIY Guide itself admitting that it's just suggestions right at the beginning (which it has done for at least five years, if the timestamps are to be believed).

 

I must also disagree with Brother Tyler, at least on some points. First of all, he says the DIY Guidelines are only opinions, but he glosses over the bit where they're opinions that were created out of long experience (and which have generally been borne out since). The DIY Guide is opinion, yes, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't bear any weight. It was created by people with a lot of experience at this, updated by someone with a lot of experience at this, and is targeted at people without much experience at this. It's very good advice, which I think sums up both its advantages and disadvantages.

 

I do think it's quite effective for most people. Most of the Don'ts have three things in common: they violate what is generally perceived as canon (a point I will get to later), they are regularly proposed by enterprising young DIY authors, and they are usually included because the author thinks it would make the chapter unique or original or special. You might have noticed the rather oppositional nature of those last two.

 

Most authors want to be unique. Most want to stick (more or less) within canon. And most don't want to look back at this in six months and feel like an idiot (I do not want to talk about my first DIY chapter, and you can't make me). The DIY Guide is very good on that basis. If any of those don't apply to you, it's less useful.

 

Second, regarding the examples provided of GW breaking the "Don'ts":

The vast expansion of the Second Founding is a retcon. The DIY Guide should be updated accordingly.

 

Lysander, to me, looks like GW bringing him up to being a modern character. Before that, he was a mid-M40 character - which made it harder to do stuff with him, I suspect.

 

The Blood Ravens and Space Sharks do what the DIY Guide suggests regarding traitor geneseed - they hint at it, rather than coming out and saying it. No problem there (though I think they'd make more sense as Dark Founding).

 

The Sons of Medusa and Steel Confessors demonstrate two important things. The Sons of Medusa, to me, don't get any real milage out of their creation. It would have been no different if they were a normal Chapter as part of a normal founding (it could have been written easily enough). This, to me, makes it a bad idea, and demonstrates that GW writes bad fluff, too. "GW did it" does not make it a good idea. "GW didn't do it" doesn't make it a bad idea, either, however - and that's important to remember.

 

The Steel Confessors are different in a more important way: the unique aspect of their creation is important, and the consequences of that creation are dealt with. Their unique aspects are a liability, not an advantage, and the Imperium reacts realistically to their existence. If you're going to actually explore "what would being X mean in 40K", then that's a very different thing than throwing it in as part of your chapter just to make them special.

 

Third, yes, input from others only matters if you care what other people think. On the other hand, if you* don't care what people think, why do you want their opinions on what you wrote? Other people come with the risk of them not liking what you did. This is a forum, not an echo chamber - if you expect people to read what you produced, it's fair for them to expect you to listen to their thoughts on it. You shouldn't change things you like just to satisfy others - but, to some extent, satisfying others must be a goal or you wouldn't be posting here. Expecting people to read things they don't like then provide advice on how to make it better without making it something they'd like better seems to expect an unrealistic level of either masochism or cognitive dissonance.

 

*A theoretical "you", not Brother-Tyler-you.

[Ecritter]

I agree with both of the above (- the bug report of course).

[Gripharius]

Either way, I've never understood the exclusion of females in an astartes chapter other than to cling to GW's antiquated, chauvinistic ideals perpetuated from the 80s.

 

Personally, I believe the exclusion of males from the Sisters of Battle to be a clear indicator of GW's oh-so-unsubtle militaristic feminism and anti-male agenda.  Astartes are essentially soul-less, robotic, inhuman hunks of brain-less flesh sent to destroy and die like rabid dogs.  The posed, intelligent and beautifully-lethal Sisters of Battle are the ideal warriors of the future that operate with autonomy and are given the honor of guarding some of the Imperium's most important and revered relics.  While Space Marines are dumb meat-hammers, Sisters of Battle are sleek, efficient scalpels that protect the Imperium with style and grace.

 

Clearly, GW hates men.