Shooting at Chariots

[Seahawk]

So, seems simple. Chariots are shot at "in the exact same way as other vehicles" (p..82), which means one needs to draw Line of Sight to its "hull or turret" (p.73). Blasts need to have the hole "over any part of the vehicle's hull" (p.73).

 

Since there weren't any chariots before this wasn't an issue, but now we have the Burning Chariot of Tzeentch and the various chariots of Slaanesh. There are small metalish parts that consist of a "hull" of sorts, and they each have various creatures pulling them but are definitely not in any definition a "hull". They have no separate rules, stats, or anything to differentiate them, and for all intents and purposes are simply decorative elements (despite being the source of their movement for Slaanesh, or completely aesthetic for Tzeentch)

 

So, in game terms, what is a Chariot's actual "hull"? The built contraption, or the built contraption + creatures? How does one determine AV arcs?

[Valkyrion]

hull  (hl)

n.

1.

a. The dry outer covering of a fruit, seed, or nut; a husk.

b. The enlarged calyx of a fruit, such as a strawberry, that is usually green and easily detached.

2.

a. Nautical The frame or body of a ship, exclusive of masts, engines, or superstructure.

b. The main body of various other large vehicles, such as a tank, airship, or flying boat.

3. The outer casing of a rocket, guided missile, or spaceship.

 

No other vehicles, except flyers, are glued to a base, so I think anything glued to that base should count as 'main body'.

This would include the wheel base (or disc), the main rider and the steeds, but would not include daemonette riders on the exalted set, blue horrors or fire on the flamer, scythes and whips on the exalted and so on.

 

Thats how I'd play it anyway.

[Dam13n]

Well seeing as they come on a base then I'd just use that as a frame of reference when using templates.

 

When determining LoS it will be the whole model including the rider but excluding things like banner poles and weapons just like targeting an infantry model.

 

Essentially it's the main "body" of the model that determines LoS (and cover saves). Using the term "hull" applies to tanks and other more conventional vehicles, but doesn't really fit the multi-peice nature of the daemon chariots.

[Seahawk]

Exactly my point. The problem is that is has to apply to them, and no you cannot target the rider, separately or not. To me, creatures are not hull, as pointed out by Valkyrion. 

 

Which brings me to my next question (since the passenger also doesn't count as hull, unless you'd also count modeled on passengers on say, the Venom or Raider or Orks as "hull"): If the hull is entirely behind blocking terrain and can't be seen, but the passenger is sticking up, can they shoot/be shot at? I'm thinking no, because while you can trace LoS from any point on the hull for open-topped vehicles, again the passengers do not count as part of the hull (and neither do decorative elements, such as the steeds/screamers or antennae). 

[Captain Idaho]

It could be you're looking at it from a real life context and not the context of the rules. We know a chariot is a hull therefore the fact the model is in the shape of a beast etc means nothing. The mechanic of the game tells us it's a vehicle therefore any part of the model is a part of the hull unless stated otherwise.

 

Essentially just don't let your interpretation of the model colour the black and white of the rules. ;)

[Seahawk]

How do we know what counts as "decorative" though? With no stats and no definition, it could be anything.

 

Cases in point: The Slaanesh chariots have Steeds of Slaanesh yoked to them. The Exalted Seeker chariot only has two yoked to it, and two that are completely unattached. The Tzeentch chariot has nothing yoked to it! The screamers are completely unattached to the disc, both on the model and in the fluff. Essentially, they are completely decorative (indeed, I intend to model my three such chariots without the screamers because it's cheaper and I'm bitz-building them).

 

 

So...what do we do? There is no consistency to work with here, other than to assume that steeds/creatures/passengers are not part of the hull.

[Morollan]

Nothing RAW to back this up but I'd have to treat any steeds as part of the hull. They are effectively the engine of the vehicle, They provide its locomotive power. If you can shoot at the engines of a stormraven then I don't see why you can't shoot at the 'engines' of a chariot.

[Valkyrion]

I'd play it using the base as it's hull and anything atop that base is considered 'hull', wheel base and steeds both. 

Any rider directly attached to the wheel base I'd consider a turret (minus whips, swords, flames), and anything sticking out over the edge of the base doesn't count.

 

This grants consistency, because as far as am I aware, all current chariot models use the same base size?

 

Otherwise, the Skull Chariot thing is far easier to hit than the Tzeentch one because there are no animals pulling it.

[Dam13n]

Well the steeds aren't separate models in their own right, they have no profile and can't disembark so have to be considered part of the chariot itself.

 

The rider(s) is(are) contentious. Obviously you can't pick it/them out from the chariot when it comes to shooting as its/they're an embarked model. However, in the case of the daemonettes, they are also part if the model, as is the exalted alluress (she can't disembark either). The same holds true for the pyrocaster/blue horrors/screamers on the Tzeentch chariot and the bloodletters on the Khorne chariot(s).

 

You could argue that heralds on a chariot don't count for LoS because they aren't a fixed part of the chariot. Same as orks placed on the trukk's flatbed or DE on the raider/venom (with the exception of models mounting the fixed weapons on the models).

[Seahawk]

Nothing RAW to back this up but I'd have to treat any steeds as part of the hull. They are effectively the engine of the vehicle, They provide its locomotive power. If you can shoot at the engines of a stormraven then I don't see why you can't shoot at the 'engines' of a chariot.

 

The problem is that it's not consistent. Screamers are not pulling the Disc of Tzeentch, for instance, it flies of its own accord.

 

 

 

Any rider directly attached to the wheel base I'd consider a turret

 

So you'd consider it the same for Venoms and Raiders? The rules don't agree.

 

 

 

However, in the case of the daemonettes, they are also part if the model, as is the exalted alluress (she can't disembark either).

 

The problem here is that, even though they cannot disembark, they are not a part of the chariot. Otherwise the Tzeentch chariot would be sooo much better. Its heavy weapons either cannot fire on the move or are always snap shooting exactly because the Exalted Flamer is a passenger, not a turret of the vehicle. That it can't disembark has nothing to do with the shooting rules. 

 

 

Blocking terrain, such as walls that can cover the Burning Chariot but not the top of the Flamer, introduce more problems as I asked earlier. If one can see just the passenger but not any part of the hull, can one shoot at the chariot?

[Morollan]

 

Nothing RAW to back this up but I'd have to treat any steeds as part of the hull. They are effectively the engine of the vehicle, They provide its locomotive power. If you can shoot at the engines of a stormraven then I don't see why you can't shoot at the 'engines' of a chariot.

 

The problem is that it's not consistent. Screamers are not pulling the Disc of Tzeentch, for instance, it flies of its own accord.

 

 

Just because there are no chains or anything physically attached to the chariot doesn't mean they aren't pulling it. It's a floating disc pulled by flying sharks so realism is probably not high on the designers list!

[Seahawk]

Hence the problems with the rules! Arg! :P

[Raeven]

Anyone that tells me that I can't shoot at the model because they didn't include the major components of the model, I'm not going to play them.