A couple of quick fan fic questions.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Greetings brothers,

 

I'm in the middle a fairly large fan fiction project but as I've started to descibe some scenes I'm realising that my knowledge has gaps and lexicanum is not proving sufficient to plug them.

 

1.) What is the size and strength disparity between an Ogryn and an Astartes? I realise that 1vs1 the marine will always win cause he's more intelligent but if they were facing down a massed charge?

 

2.) When a Neophyte/Scout is ready to take the black carapace is he, for all intents and purposes, a lightly armoured marine? By that I mean how would he measure upto a regular guardsman?

 

3.) Is Scout carapace armour the same as StormTrooper armour just a finer design?

 

4.) How effective are lasguns/pistols against carapace armour?

 

5.) More a question for chaos players, are there poisons capable of killing a marine within a few moments?

 

I realise the latter pieces tend to vary from book to book but I thought it was better to seek my brothers wisdom before I continue.

 

Ave Imperator.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Let's see.

 

1. An ogryn and an unarmored Marine probably have fairly similar physical strength.  However, if your Marine is in his power armor, his strength will surpass that of an ogryn with relative easy.

 

2. Yes, and he'd win 99 times out of 100 against the Guardsman.

 

3. Similar, but not the same.  Storm Trooper carapace is going to be made from cheaper, more conventional materials; something like aligned-crystal steel bonded with kevlar.  The other thing to consider is that Storm Trooper carapace is designed for assault operations, and consists of a series of overlapping plates that provide protection at the expense of mobility; in the fluff, it's always described as bulky.  Scout carapace, on the other hand, is designed for stealth to facilitate the covert nature of Scout operations.  That combined with the better materials a Chapter will have access to means that the armor plates will be made of ceramite on top of a ferro- or kevlar-weave bodyglove, giving roughly equivalent protection while being considerably lighter.

 

4. Not very.  Lasguns do damage by transferring an immense amount of heat to living tissue, and any kind of armor will prevent the direct application of heat to flesh and thus prevent most bodily harm.  This is especially true of armor made from heat-dispersing materials like ceramics, ie ceramite, the basis for all Astartes armored components.

 

5. Absolutely there are.  Hellfire rounds, for examples, carry extremely virulent viral strains nad bio-toxins that are effective even against Astartes.

[Wulfkry]

Ferrum is on point there.  I'd add that the scout ratio would be 99%-99.9% depending on the guardsman.  The ogryn part that the OP stated always, i wouldnt use that word as random chance plays out a good deal on the battlefield.  Remember some marines do get cocky and Ogryns are NOT to be underestimated.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Thanks both of you. The Ogryn thing is more that I have chaos marines having them basically stampeed a loyalisit line to break it but I didnt want to go into too much detail about how much stronger they were etc without checking my facts. With the Scout it's him walking about guardsmen and realising how far removed from common men he has become and just wanted to check what size would be logical for him to be considering he is ready to be take the carapace.

[Aegnor]

Marines, armoured or not, would also have a range of major physical advantages over Ogryns. They will be massively faster, both reflex wise and in actual movement.

They will have superior senses including balance.

 

Both unarmed, I'd back a marine 90% of the time vs an Ogryn.

[spafe]

Just a quick thing, when it comes to combat, what the otehrs have said completly, as a marine is superior in a more all rounder way, but an ogryn shouldnt be underestimated, and its Str in say an arm wrestle would be stronger than an un-armoured marine, possibly even an armoured marine (from table top marine str 4, orgyn str 5 or 6 cant remember, and from fluff, the ultra sarge when organising refugees has to put in effort but swings a truck 180, while an orgyn drags a chrimera (prob heavier) to a wounded corporal 'cos the medi kit is in the chrimera').

[Aegnor]

There's issues of "movie marines" vs tabletop marines there, but yeah ogryns are likely a match for marines in brute strength, but nothing else.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Just a quick thing, when it comes to combat, what the otehrs have said completly, as a marine is superior in a more all rounder way, but an ogryn shouldnt be underestimated, and its Str in say an arm wrestle would be stronger than an un-armoured marine, possibly even an armoured marine (from table top marine str 4, orgyn str 5 or 6 cant remember, and from fluff, the ultra sarge when organising refugees has to put in effort but swings a truck 180, while an orgyn drags a chrimera (prob heavier) to a wounded corporal 'cos the medi kit is in the chrimera').

 

 

There's issues of "movie marines" vs tabletop marines there, but yeah ogryns are likely a match for marines in brute strength, but nothing else.

Yeah I understand where both of you are coming from. Yeah I realise an armoured marine wether it's stronger or not is gonna win out with speed and quality of weapons and armour my situation is more like they are used as shocktroops to break the marines line before the cultists and chaos marines come. But if they hadn't given the marines pause that strategy would have made no sense and I'd have had to rething my scene. I do love that moment where it drags the chrimera across the field rather than go inside to get the med kid.

[Leonaides]

a stamped of ogryns does have mass and momentum... That would make it work against a marine line - ogryns do take a lot of punishment to bring down, even from bolter-armed marines, so it could work as a battlefield tactic to get the chaos marines into a better position to attack or as a delaying tactic to facilitate a withdrawal. A Marine will be confident but wary of an attackgin ogryn because not being wary will get him killed. Sure, he's faster, but one good hit with the butt of a ripper gun or a 2hCCW could stove in his chestplate/tear off a limb/crush a helmet leaving him blinded/incapacitated and defenceless from a follow-up blow.

[Brother Casman]

I would take my cues from WHFB - look into to Ogres and their Bull Rush. When a regiment of Ogres charges an enemy regiment, the impact alone does some damage. Effective against space marines? Probably not, but I imagine the Ogryns would cause a few moments of confusion as power armoured bodies get bowled over. Once they're in hand to hand, the marines will win, but that initial charge will have done something.

[Wulfkry]

As per the two scenarios you are describing. 

 

Ogryn Stampede nothing to sneeze at not even as a SM.  The brutes could probably bowl over a land raider spartan given enough of them.  Bolter rounds are not going to be as effective gonna need some Las, plasma or Missle, to stop that probably gonna have to use big guns that make big boom as they are usually to stupid to realize that they are dead dying..  Their brute force and weight is probably enough to incapacitate a squad of marines if not out right kill in a stampede. 

 

Scout amongst guardsman.  Depending on the chapter or how you flesh out the character they maybe very cocky around them after realizing how far removed "superior" they are.  Or it could be a humbling experience having the individual realize, he has sacrificed part of his humanity to become what he has become, and that truly the common guardsman exemplifies the greatness of humanity standing naked before the horros of the galaxy.  The size differences are going to be pretty apparent.  Since in "real life" a SM would probably be around the size of Shaquille O'neal unarmored, so scouts be about the same, think 7'1 and about 400 pounds (enhanced skeletal structure and all) of pure muscle, beyond razor sharp mind and reflexes.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

As per the two scenarios you are describing. 

 

Ogryn Stampede nothing to sneeze at not even as a SM.  The brutes could probably bowl over a land raider spartan given enough of them.  Bolter rounds are not going to be as effective gonna need some Las, plasma or Missle, to stop that probably gonna have to use big guns that make big boom as they are usually to stupid to realize that they are dead dying..  Their brute force and weight is probably enough to incapacitate a squad of marines if not out right kill in a stampede. 

 

Scout amongst guardsman.  Depending on the chapter or how you flesh out the character they maybe very cocky around them after realizing how far removed "superior" they are.  Or it could be a humbling experience having the individual realize, he has sacrificed part of his humanity to become what he has become, and that truly the common guardsman exemplifies the greatness of humanity standing naked before the horros of the galaxy.  The size differences are going to be pretty apparent.  Since in "real life" a SM would probably be around the size of Shaquille O'neal unarmored, so scouts be about the same, think 7'1 and about 400 pounds (enhanced skeletal structure and all) of pure muscle, beyond razor sharp mind and reflexes.

Thanks mate thats exactly what I was looking for. Yeah the scouts in question have spent most of their training fighting a crusade against greenskins so with the exception of chapter surfs and deck crew they haven't really had any interaction with common men since they were inducted. I just wasn't sure if there was anymore genebulking that went into a scout after he takes the carapace but I think you just answered that.

[Wulfkry]

Glad to hear it mate, now go finish your story and post in on the black library fan fic section, im bored as hell at work and need stuff to read!!

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Glad to hear it mate, now go finish your story and post in on the black library fan fic section, im bored as hell at work and need stuff to read!!

I'm just doing a quick edit of the finished piece then I wouldn't mind getting some peoples opinions on it.

 

One more quick question. It didn't seem worth starting a new topic for I'm thinking of a new scene for a follow up piece. Are marines really trained in hand to hand fighting? The only examples of fist fighting I've ever read have been huge superman punches but when I scribbled down my concept for this scene and read it back it played out more like a MMA fight. Obviously their armour is gonna restrict their movement but is a marine doing thinks like jabbing punches, arm bars and snapping bones plausable do you think?

[reckoning]

 

Glad to hear it mate, now go finish your story and post in on the black library fan fic section, im bored as hell at work and need stuff to read!!

I'm just doing a quick edit of the finished piece then I wouldn't mind getting some peoples opinions on it.

 

One more quick question. It didn't seem worth starting a new topic for I'm thinking of a new scene for a follow up piece. Are marines really trained in hand to hand fighting? The only examples of fist fighting I've ever read have been huge superman punches but when I scribbled down my concept for this scene and read it back it played out more like a MMA fight. Obviously their armour is gonna restrict their movement but is a marine doing thinks like jabbing punches, arm bars and snapping bones plausable do you think?

 

IMO they are trained to be a weapon. RL combat forces are trained in literal hand to hand combat. I dont see why the Imperiums greatest warriors wouldnt be as well.

[Artemid]

 

Glad to hear it mate, now go finish your story and post in on the black library fan fic section, im bored as hell at work and need stuff to read!!

I'm just doing a quick edit of the finished piece then I wouldn't mind getting some peoples opinions on it.

 

One more quick question. It didn't seem worth starting a new topic for I'm thinking of a new scene for a follow up piece. Are marines really trained in hand to hand fighting? The only examples of fist fighting I've ever read have been huge superman punches but when I scribbled down my concept for this scene and read it back it played out more like a MMA fight. Obviously their armour is gonna restrict their movement but is a marine doing thinks like jabbing punches, arm bars and snapping bones plausable do you think?

 

I would say absolutely. Just because their chosen weapon is the bolter, and most of their opponents aren't going to be using sophisticated enough technique to warrant more than abusing their superhuman gorilla punches, doesn't mean they aren't trained in a wide variety of fighting styles.

 

edit: semi ninja'd. just remember that I'm sure it's frequently easier to just use your tank-ripping strength to snap someone in half than use clever locks and throws and things.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

edit: semi ninja'd. just remember that I'm sure it's frequently easier to just use your tank-ripping strength to snap someone in half than use clever locks and throws and things.

I agree the brother is only fighting that way to incapacatate the opponent for questioning later on, that and a little bit of showboating.

[Hyaenidae]

One last quick note on the Ogryn question... in the short story The Iron Within, Warsmith Dantioch uses gene-bred warriors, which are Ogryns in all but name, during the siege. At one point in the story, a group of them counter charge a traitor IW attack, and get mixed in with the Astartes. Though a few quickly die to chainaxes, they specifically note three Ogryns getting their hands on a Traitor IW, and pulling him apart limb from limb with their bare freakin' hands like a Stretch Armstrong doll. Only actual BL story I can think of where Ogryns and Astartes go toe to toe, but it might help.

[exetus]

As others have said, Space Marines ARE weapons, they don't just use them.  Not only are Space Marines tactically superior to almost every other man in the Imperium, they are also trained on how to use anything and everything at their disposal in order to win, even if it's just their bodies.  Hand-to-hand combat is also a way of imparting discipline and control.  I don't recall any specific instances of Space Marines in non-weapon training in the books, but considering that the standard army of every current nation teaches at least rudimentary hand-combat skills, I would seriously doubt that they aren't just well versed in hand-to-hand combat, but masters of it.

 

If we're going off of fluff, too, I'd say that a massed charge of ogryns, if both sides are unarmed, is probably pretty effective.  As a result, unless it's the only way out of the situation, I'd hazard a guess that the Space Marines would do everything in their power to prevent the possible occurrence of such an assault.  If they were armed, however, fluff marines are probably going to be just fine.  With an impressive array of targeting abilities, lightning fast reflexes and .75 caliber mass-reactive mini-rockets for bullets, ogryn faces and necks probably get singled out on the charge.  Even an ogryn needs what little brains it has.  Mow down as many as they can and then go at it with close combat weapons.

 

Close quarters would even things out a bit, but unless they're massively outnumbered, I'd give the Space Marines a pretty easy win with few losses.

[Wulfkry]

For the hand to hand stuff as our brothers up top have posted SM are weapons.  Actually on a scale and depth that we cannot imagine.  Picture Diomedes (cuz he made achilles look like a puss in the Iliad) mixed with the movie 300 version of Leonides,  mixed with Conan, Subotai (Genghis khans general for some like calgar and dante) +500.  They are gods of war period maybe only surpassed in hand to hand by the Assassin enclaves.

 

In the Graham Mcneil UM novels Uriel and Pasanius have a sparring scene that shows the hand to hand combat effectiveness of SM.  Also in some of the books characters like Sharrowkyn and Shrike have learned the highest levels of Ninja'ness from the Raven guard so their hand to hand is going to be utterly ridiculous. 

 

Fluff wise if a squad of 5 faced and ogryn stampede i think 1 or 2 would die if not be seriously injured and all would have taken quite a bit of a pounding before emerging victorious. 

 

How well they do also depends on their load out.  Plasma does some wicked stuff.  Power weapons would definitely be a plus.  Chainswords eh... I could see an ogryn just grabbing it and while its tearing through his hand he punches the SM in the face hard enough to shatter the helmet.  The key would be to not get into hand to hand with an ogryn. 

 

A real life example would be like if some 6'7 300 pound behemoth was charging at you because you kicked his dog and you were armed with say a hand gun for example a 1911 chambered in .45 (8 round capacity magazine) you wouldn't want to close the distance you'd want to make space and probably dump your mag into him.  Now say that you've had a fair amount of firearms training and maybe even combat experience (you limeys should have never given up your guns!!!) you have excellent placement in your rounds all center mass chest. Would that stop him *shrug maybe is he on PCP?  If he is (there was no dog because his brain was tripping ballsacks) you are probably not going to effectively stop him with those rounds.  In fact theres a good chance he will get his hands on you and do some damage before dying from blood loss.  Adrenaline very powerful stuff.

 

Granted bolt rounds explode after a set amount of target penetration (not sure if this is firmly established) but is there an arming distance?

 

While Ogryns are slow they are ridiculously strong and if  there is a stampede all of their walnut brains are focused on one thing BREAK STUFF!!!.  So all it takes is for a moment of incapacitation and the SM are probably dead or seriously mauled.  An ogryn can easily crush a marines head by stomping on it.  Or hell if one Ogryn bear hugs a SM another could just come by and crush his head or pull it off!

 

So I guess to make it believable 1 or more of the SM in your story would die in the stampede while the others though they survive are badly mauled. 

 

Sorry for the long post but its slow in the office right now...

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Well when they charge there are seven marines and one neophyte fighting massed cultists, then Ogryn and traitor marines. By the end of it they are all dead or close to it. So yeah it doesn't end well for them.

 

As far as bolt rounds go I think most are mass reactive appart from, I think, subsonic rounds theres little point having stealth ammo if it preceeds to blow up is there?

[Wulfkry]

Well... you could have the Neophyte survive, and reveal him later to be a Special character of yours or maybe your dreadnaught kinda like in the BT graphic novel.

[Deus Imperator Vult]

The Neophyte is one of the two man focus characters of the piece. He survives after taking a huge amount of punishment. The structure of the piece is similar to Sons of Dorn in the sense it mostly follows Neophytes but I wanna build some badass characters from the ground up.

[Aegnor]

Wasn't a great book, but Battle for the Abyss has a Ultramarine and Space Wolf captains square off against each other in a hand to hand duel. It specifically mentions their contrasting styles and that the Ultramarine is pretty lethal with very refined hand to hand technique.

[totallynotchaos]

It would also depend on if these Ogryn were corrupted (did you say something about chaos? I think you might have, can't remember).

 

An enraged Ogryn is dangerous enough. But if it has succumbed to the warp, then the threat they present is multiplied exponentially. Especially if - Emperor Forbid - they were corrupted by the influence of Nurgle.

Also, are any of the Ogryn Bone 'eads? That might make a difference as well.

 

 

Also, as a side note, while Carapace is better at protecting against las-fire and solid impacts, Flak armor is surprisingly more effective against shrapnel and low velocity projectile weapons, such as shotguns.