Shooty Chaos

[SteelBrigade92]

I have already known that our dex does not have a reliable way of getting our good CQB units where they need to be to do damage. I figured gearing towards a shooty CSM list. Thinking of taking regular CSM squads with double meltas, a mark of khorne and VOTLW. They seem more flexible than Berserkers since they can stil rapid fire when they come out of their rhinos. What Im asking is am I on the right track? I also plan on taking in a Deffy and a couple squads of Oblits.

[SteelBrigade92]

I also forgot to mention I only recently picked op the dex and started with Chaos last Christmas and Im slowly building my army. So im still pretty much a noob to Chaos.

[the jeske]

meltas on csm?? if your taking meltas then they are on oblits and bikers , never on csm . csm always with plasma .

[Malicious Manticore]

I would agree with the jeske. I like to take weaponry on my standard Chaos Marines that is similar in range to what weapons they're using, so if the unit has all Bolters and is going for a stand-and-shoot type of approach, I'll equip them with Plasma Guns so their range won't inhibit the use of the points I spent on their special weapons. If you're gearing them for closer range with Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons (which it doesn't sound like you are), that's when I'd go with Melta or Flamers. 

 

As for other shooting units, Oblits are pretty keen, and fairly survivable, and a Defiler is alright, but from what I've seen, the Forgefiend will be slightly more bang-for-your-points. It depends, then, on whether you want to go with their Ectoplasma Canons or the other weapon option (whose name I've forgotten). They both have ups and downs. 

[derpasaurus]

I actually agree with Jeske.
Is there an apocalypse on the way someone forgot to tell me about? 

Raptors/Bikes make better use of melta.
Bikes are t5, 12" move and can turbo boost, twin linked bolters, ignore terrain, but with dangerous terrain checks if they pass thru it.
Raptors are t4, bolt pistol toting jump infantry. So they're weaker, and have to roll to run up to 6", but they ignore all terrain unless they start or end their move in it, then it's dangerous. Bikes have to go around buildings, raptors can go over it. Bikes are tougher and faster if you run them. Pretty good choice either way, imo.

Plasma on marines lets everyone shoot up to 24," and usually I'll take 2 s7 shots inside 12" to 1 s8.

Khorne is a good mark due to 2 attacks if you do charge and 1 more attack with a passed leadership check if you are charged. I run Khorne on occasion, tho personally prefer Slaanesh on mine. Same points, but you get a consistent +1i, as opposed to an attack or 2 extra that goes away after the first turn. Granted it's kind of redundant against a lot of xenos or guard, but if you play as many loyalist armies as I do, i5 with vets of the long war is a godsend, even if I'm not the one actually assaulting.

[Malicious Manticore]

Agreed on the Slaanesh point. Having a unit that's mostly kitted for shooting but with the Mark of Slaanesh makes most Loyalist Marines at least think twice, since they're going to have to fight at Initiative step and my Slaaneshi Marines will go first, and get to Overwatch. Admittedly this doesn't do as much against truly dedicated assault units, but it's something and it's a fairly inexpensive mark to give them. 

[minigun762]

I don't see a problem with dual melta if you're going mechanized CSM. It worked well last edition and I still trust a good melta shot over stripping hull points. The fact that it's a safe weapon that can instant kill models is a bonus.

 

For ground pounders, I agree with plasma.

[derpasaurus]

Oh I'm not saying melta's no good, just that in my experience plasma does better on basic marines. As i mentioned, there are other options that are much faster and more maneuverable that can get melta in quicker. I ran 2 melta in a chaos marine squad for a while and it just didnt' deliver as much as my plasma has since I switched both CSM units over to 2 plasma. 

[Zhorzh]

 

Thinking of taking regular CSM squads with double meltas, a mark of khorne and VOTLW. They seem more flexible than Berserkers since they can stil rapid fire when they come out of their rhinos. What Im asking is am I on the right track? I also plan on taking in a Deffy and a couple squads of Oblits.

 

 

If those CSMs are riding Rhinos, then they're ok. Since they have MoK they probably also need CC weapons, having MoK on models with 1 attack is a waste.

 

You also need to max out on your HS. So, 1 Defiler and 6 Obliterators.

[minigun762]

Oh I'm not saying melta's no good, just that in my experience plasma does better on basic marines. As i mentioned, there are other options that are much faster and more maneuverable that can get melta in quicker. I ran 2 melta in a chaos marine squad for a while and it just didnt' deliver as much as my plasma has since I switched both CSM units over to 2 plasma.

Agreed, it's just that the fast attack slot is ripe with good choices, so having options elsewhere is valuable.

[the jeske]

Stop agreeing with me <_< it makes the topic shorter .

 

on the gunline thing . If you want to go pure chaos codex . you can go the 5th ed way. 1 DP mace wings etc. 9 oblits 3x10 plasma csm[no champ weapons no icons , no vets no ultra grit] 2x6 plasma terminators 2x3 melta bikes. that is the chaos cheapo version , if someone doesnt want to upgrade his chaos to 6th ed or just has a 3.5 ed army .

cuting off -1 termintors /-1 terminators /-1csm as points go down from 1999 to smaller games.

[SteelBrigade92]

 

Oh I'm not saying melta's no good, just that in my experience plasma does better on basic marines. As i mentioned, there are other options that are much faster and more maneuverable that can get melta in quicker. I ran 2 melta in a chaos marine squad for a while and it just didnt' deliver as much as my plasma has since I switched both CSM units over to 2 plasma.

Agreed, it's just that the fast attack slot is ripe with good choices, so having options elsewhere is valuable.

 

Speaking of which I do plan on bringing in a full seven man bike squad with mas number of meltas and Mark of Khorne.

 

The reason I first decided meltas rather than Plasmas is becuase I was never willing to take the risk of getting hot and failing an armor save and they cost more. However, plasmas would be better at dealing with loyalist marines. So I figured, Have half of my squads with bouble meltas and the others carry Plasmas?

[derpasaurus]

I have melta in a chosen squad and in some raptors in my army. I'm looking at bikes as an addition and currently leaning toward plasma on them as well. possibly magnetize so I can switch out to melta if I want. The reason I think plasma on bikes is because they're relentless, so they can rapid fire and still assault.

Regarding Gets Hot!, it's not too bad, really. Firstly you have to roll a 1, then you have to roll a 1 or 2. Yes the odds are there, but they're not overwhelming. I've had games where like 4 guys nuked themselves, but typically none or only one or 2 guys die, but I have 4 plasma guns and 2 plasma pistols in my army. I don't worry too much about it, and it kills the crap out of high toughness units. I think Plasma is worth the risk. 

Nothing kills vehicles quite like a melta, tho.

[minigun762]

Long term, a mixed approach like you're discussing will be better able to weather the various meta, codex and edition changes if you have a limited budget.

[derpasaurus]

Yeah balance of equipment plus your personal playstyle is the key, really. I just have my weapons set by how they're typically used. I mark my marines for shooting with an edge in combat, with my elites/fast attacks focusing more on assaults, so I have them toting the assault weapons and the more aggressive marks like Khorne.

[zyl-]

The biggest problem you are likely to encounter is the defiler getting focus fired to death in turn 1-2 almost every game. Though it is a wonderful machine, chaos generally doesn't (or can't) field enough priority targets that demand anti tank weaponry to destroy. Factor in the sheer cost of the model, and it generally will end up as a loss overall in a list like this.

[SteelBrigade92]

The biggest problem you are likely to encounter is the defiler getting focus fired to death in turn 1-2 almost every game. Though it is a wonderful machine, chaos generally doesn't (or can't) field enough priority targets that demand anti tank weaponry to destroy. Factor in the sheer cost of the model, and it generally will end up as a loss overall in a list like this.

 

Which is Why Im considering taking two fiends. One Forge fiend with Ectoplasma canons and the other as a Mualerfiend with the two power fists and tendrils. I also consider a Heldrake as a good way to draw fire. How does that sound? I have a veteran player that fields three fiends and the Maulerfiend seems good at drawing the fire and people get scared when they see that. It also cleans house when it get into combat. However, that is from THAT players experiance.

[minigun762]

I've have good success with the hadesfiend, that much dakka @ S8 helps threaten most everything on the board, including annoying flyers.

[totgeboren]

I got one close combat squad (don't ask me why ) with 2xmeltas and MoK, and one squad with bolter, bp & ccw with 2 plasmas. The guys with plasmas tend to kill a lot more things, like, every game. I might just be unlucky, but getting both a hit and pen feels like a really big task for a meltagun, whilst the plasmas tend to kill both infantry, vehicles and monsters with little difficulty.

This discrepancy in performance might have more to do with how hard assaults are to pull of, and how I play my units. Of course the close combat marines will close in with my opponent faster than the shooty ones, meaning they get more fire-power directed their way, meaning they die faster.

But for shooty basic CSM, 2xplasma is pretty sweet, and I would say better than 2xmelta. You got other stuff that can deal with heavy tanks, let your CSM deal with the rest.

Also, remember that if you take the MoK and counter-assault, you don't get to overwatch.

*Edit*

I must have dreamt, but you can definitely overwatch and still counter-charge. Sorry.