Blood Angel Drop Pod as a "Pathfinder" for GKs

[L30n1d4s]

Of all the Space Marine Options, only C: SM, C: DA, and C: BA can take Locator Beacons on their Drop Pods.

 

Given than Teleporter Homers only work on Terminators in most cases (for GKs they can also work on Strike Squads and Interceptors), Locator Beacons provide a unique capability to accurate bring in DSing Flyers, Dreadknights, and allies in Drop Pods starting turn 2.

 

Put these two together and I have been thinking of the possible synergy between GKs and an allied BA detachment:

 

BA ASM Drop Pod in turn 1 and threaten enemy forces. Turn 2, using Psychic Communion and/or COMMs Relay from an Aegis Line to ensure arrrival, GKs drop 3 Dreadknights 6" from the Drop Pod with no scatter.

 

The idea is to provide overwhelming target saturation that the enemy cannot hope to bring down in a single turn of shooting, putting them on the horns of a dilemma, and setting up a Turn 3 multi-charge into the enemy DZ by multiple Dreadknights.

 

Here is a list I am considering built around this concept:

2000 points

 

HQ (210)

-Ordos Malleus Inquisitor with TDA, Psycannon, PML(1)

*BA Libby with Divination

 

TR (885)

-10 GKTs with 2 Psycannons, BHB, Psybolts

-5 man Strike Squad with Psycannon

*10 BA ASM with 2 MGs, MB, Drop Pod, Locator Beacon

*4 Death Company

 

FA (200)

*BA Stormraven with TL-LC, TL-MM

 

HS (705)

-NDK with HI

-NDK with HI

-NDK with HI

*BA Devastators with 4 MLs

*Aegis Line with COMMs relay

 

Turn 1

ASM Drop Pod in on a critical enemy flank, meltagun a selected target, and hold their ground. Their main goal is to keep that Locator Beacon alive at all costs.

 

Inquisitor joins GKTs and advance toward midfield while pumping out 12 S7 shots and 16 S5 shots with Prescience in order to pressure enemy forces. BA Devastators hold the ADL and provide covering fire with MLs... Libby joins them and casts Prescience to improve their accuracy. NDKs, Strike Squad, and Stormraven/DC stay in reserve.

 

Turn 2

Using Comm relays, bring in all 3 NDKs down within 6" of the Locator Beacon (re-rollable 3+ for each of them, so strong chance at least 2 will come in on turn 2). NDKs use Heavy Incinerators to weaken nearby units and are positioned for turn 3 charge. Also use Comm relay to delay Strike Squad coming in (3+ with re-roll to successful rolls means you have a 50% chance of delaying them until later). Goal is to bring the Strike Squad in on turn 4 so you can position them optimally for securing objectives/getting flank shots with their Psycannon. GKTs continue to push upfield and BA Devastators keep shooting at long range. ASM maneuver and shoot/charge as required.

 

Finally, use Comm relay to bring in BA Stormraven/DC when required.... goal is to bring it in after enemy flyers so it can get a free turn of shooting at them (TL-LC, TL-MM, and 2 Bloodstrike Missiles can potentially kill enemy Vendettas, Night Scythes, Helldrakes, etc. in a single turn of shooting). If no enemy flyers, then try to come in Turn 2 and provide aerial fire support to your main force as soon as possible. DC provide a small, but potent (20 WS S5 attacks on the charge) counter-attack force that the Stormraven can deploy when required on later turns.

 

Overall, the idea is to overwhelm the enemy's ability to respond by out massing him at the critical point with multiple NDKs, all supported by mid-range (GKTs) and long-range (Devastators/Stormraven) firepower and backed up by a decent CC (Death Company). The critical vulnerability is keeping the ASM Drop Pod alive... that means dropping them where they cannot be charged by enemy uber units and also in a place that is difficult to bring it down with a single turn of concentrated firepower.

[IndigoJack]

First, flyers can't deep strike any more per the latest FAQ. I'm not sure about this list. If you're taking BA just for the locator beacons, you'd be better off with two 5man squads in drop pods with another random drop pod somewhere else. The reason being, that drop pod will be a priority target to eliminate your beacon, then deal with your BA. Many tournament FAQs also have the drop pod lose a hull point after arriving (due to immobilization) so it really wouldn't be that hard to strip two more hull points. Id say that DA might even be a better option since their marines are cheaper and they have greater access to teleport homers.

[Brother Maikel]

Its an interesting idea, and one I've considered from both angles (BA primary/GK allies and GK primary/BA allies).

 

However, if you're basically using the Assault Marines as a suicide/screen unit, a far better option would be a Furioso or DC Dreadnaught.  It would be both cheaper and provide target priority issues for your opponent: do they shoot at the advancing GKTs, the AV13/12 walker, or the beaconing drop pod?  You still can get built-in meltaguns/magna grapples, or you can go for a fragioso build that can easily vaporise units the turn it drops (2x S6 Rending plus 1x S5 AP4 templates put a lot of wounds on things).

 

If you don't go for a DC dread I'd drop the DC (you don't really need CC help between GKT and 3x DK) in favour of a 5-man ASM squad w/JPs.  Give them a Meltagun, Meltabombs and an Infernus Pistol and you've got a unit that can sit in the 'raven for late game scoring or do the suicide melta drop T2 if you need it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sadly, as we're not Battle Brothers to any marines, we can't use thier wargear, and vice versa.

 

If you want a Locator Beacon, the only way to do so is to purchase a GK Storm Raven from the Death from the Skies supliment, which has the otpion to take one.

[IndigoJack]

It says that they can't benefit from their USRs and psychic powers, and that they're treated as enemy models. There is no restriction on who can use who's homer/beacon, you just have to be sure you're not within 1" of an "enemy" model.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's;

 

 

and that they're treated as enemy models

 

I'm sure there's a FAQ somewhere about enemies not being able to use each others Wargear.

[IndigoJack]

Not that I'm aware of. It seems more like a gray area than anything.

 

Locator beacons say, "friendly units..." So are friendly units defined as units that aren't enemy units or defined as units in your army?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

'Allies of Convenience' states that units in Allied detachments are considered enemy units by the primary detachment and vice versa. The only thing is, they're enemy units you can't target with shooting or melee attacks, nor can they be targeted by psychic powers (AOE effects still apply if they scatter onto them/are in their zone). So no, the locator beacon doesn't work for us. 

 

If you want some kinda tricky Turn 2 alpha strike list, take a Raven, a cheap quad incinerator Purgator unit with Justicar teleport homer to ride inside. Then take your triple NDK or Terminator blobs or whatever you are throwing down. You'd probably also want the GM for 'Communion'. It's a big risk, as a single Interceptor shot can potentially ruin the whole plan, but it will work. 

[L30n1d4s]

Hmmm... hadn't thought about the whole "allies of convenience" issue with regard to the Locator Beacons.

 

Well, another option that can work is to exchange the BA Libby, DC, Scouts, and Stormraven for a GK Land Raider Redeemer with DCAs + a Mystic on board. Turn 1, move the Redeemer 12", then another 6" flat out to get within 6" of the enemy DZ. Mystic provides a six inch "homing beacon" bubble off the hull of the Redeemer, so as long as you keep the Land Raider alive, you can achieve the same tactic described above.

 

An example 2000 point list with double force org might look like:

 

HQ (300)

-Coteaz (100)

-GM with Rad, Blind, Incinerator (200)

 

EL (300)

-10 Purifiers with 4 PCs, NDH, 4 Halberds, 1 MCed Halberd on KoF (300)

 

TR (320)

-6 DCA with Power Sword and Power Axes/Mystic (100)

-6 DCA with Power Sword and Power Axes/Mystic (100)

-12 Warrior Acolytes with Bolters (60)

-12 Warrior Acolytes with Bolters (60)

 

HS (1080)

-NDK with HI (160)

-NDK with HI (160)

-NDK with HI (160)

-LRR with Psybolts (250)

-LRR with Psybolts (250)

*Aegis Line with Quadgun (100)

 

Turn 1

GM and Coteaz join Purifiers and advance up-field, pumping out Psycannon fire and providing a credible CC threat. Cotez uses Divination to give re-rolls and GM buffs with HH and his grenades (plus Incinerator for crowd control).... GM also makes D3 units scoring, so 1-3 Purifiers and/or NDKs can become "troops" in essence.

 

Both DCA/Mystic groups ride in the the LR Redeemers and drive forward 12" + 6" Flat out on Turn 1, moving the threat ring up in the enemy's face and also getting the Mystic's Psychic Beacon out there.

 

Warrior Acolytes hold the Aegis Line/other fortifications, man the Quadgun, and shoot bolters as required. All the NDKs stay in reserve.

 

Turn 2

Use Psychic Communion to bring as many of the NDKs in as possible, dropping them within 6" of the LRR/Mystics and Incinerate anything within range. Meanwhile, Purifiers/Coteaz/GM keep pushing forward and applying pressure. DCA unload and charge units as required and the LRRs advance and Flamestorm any MEQs and below that they can get their hands on.

[Gentlemanloser]

Quote

Not that I'm aware of. It seems more like a gray area than anything.

IIRC it was originally to stop your opponents space marines from using

your Teleport Homers to ds in off. But damed if I can find it now!

Probably lost in the change from 5th to 6th, like a few other FAQ

answers that are still relevant.

Locator beacons say, "friendly units..." So are friendly units defined

as units that aren't enemy units or defined as units in your army?

I think the Allies rule covers that.

Quote

Battle Brothers are treated as 'friendly units'

If BB are 'friendly, and AoC/DA are 'enemy', then the locator Beacons 'Friendly Units' has to be defined by the ally rules, and not just every mini in your army.

[IndigoJack]

Fair enough. I didn't have my BGB handy to see if it was defined. Thanks for clearing it up!

[Gentlemanloser]

I think it was a :cuss decision not to give us any Battle Brothers.

 

What with Logan decapitating a GKGM, the Dark Angels blowing up one of our Strike Cruiers.  And seemingly *ever* Chapter knowing of, and facing down, the Ruinous Powers.

 

That we remain a 'secret' force no one else knows about, is well, unbelivable.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

We're a secret to the wider Imperium. Chapter Masters, Lord Militants, obviously the Inquisition and probably Navy Admirals would know of Chapter 666. And of course the Adeptus Mechanicus high echelons are aware of us, although their dealings are very hands-off. 

 

Just because lesser Astartes regularly fight Daemons doesn't mean they know about the Knights. In fact, as established from numerous sources, regular Astartes get mind-wiped after any joint mission involving our Chapter. The Wolves get special exemption because A: good luck trying to enforce a mindwipe on them and B: the events in the aftermath of 1st War for Armageddon have put them beyond Inquisitorial censure. 

 

 

The reason we don't get BB with anyone is (aside from the background), we'd be insanely OP if we were. Handing out our buffs to even Guardsmen, or other Marines, would basically invalidate the few disadvantages we have left as an army. As it is, IG Allies already make fantastic additions to our forces. And yes, I know 'Grand Strategy' still works, but it will get FAQ'd at some point. 

[Jolemai]

What with Logan decapitating a GKGM, the Dark Angels blowing up one of our Strike Cruiers.

Any source for that?

[Gentlemanloser]

ADB novel, Dangel Codex.

 

 

Just because lesser Astartes regularly fight Daemons doesn't mean they know about the Knights.

 

You think Logan hasn't told the entire Space Wolves?  I'm sure the entire Inner Circle of the Dark Angels know of us.

 

And regular Marines can't be mind wiped, if chapters routinely celebrate thier victories they have over Daemons and Runious Powers.

 

For more BL exmaples, I just read Brotherhood of the Snake (a very good book!) and they face down a few Daemons from the Warp, and kill hundred upon hundred of Cultists.

 

None were mind wiped.  Even though they worked closely with an Inquisitor.

[Leonaides]

 

And regular Marines can't be mind wiped, if chapters routinely celebrate thier victories they have over Daemons and Runious Powers.

 

 

Why not? We 'celebrate' things like the Battle of Gettysburg, the Storming of the Bastille, The battle of the Iimjin River, etc and yet does anyone really know exactly what happened? What trooper X did at 15 minutes into the battle and how General Y chose to walk to the left of the tree rather than right?

 

It is enough sometimes to know a victory has been had, even if the specifics are unknown. The same could be said of the Sanguinary Guard detachment sent to fight Kabanda alongside the Grey Knights. No reason why they couldnt have been mind-wiped afterwards and given a sanitised bat rep by the Knights for the BA chapter archives, and yet the chapter would still know that they played a part in the defeat of a hated enemy and be able to celebrate it.

[thade]

Regular marines certainly can be mind-wiped; due to the extreme value of a space marine, the process for mind-wiping them is more involved and gentler (read: more expensive and involving far less collateral damage, leaving them with memories that aren't forbidden) than the mind-wipes used on, say, guardsmen (who are 'lucky' to be mind-wiped and lose maybe everything up to and  including their name...but it's that or just death).

 

Also, "treated as enemies" is pretty clear to me: BA locator beacons and teleport homers can't be used by GK anymore than they can be used by the Chaos Demons or CSM you're fighting against. <3 If your opponent allows it, that's one thing, but don't try to push this ticket too hard against anybody unwilling. Best case it's a rather dodgy interpretation of the rules that benefits you, which is a recipe for a bad rep.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Why not? We 'celebrate' things like the Battle of Gettysburg, the Storming of the Bastille, The battle of the Iimjin River, etc and yet does anyone really know exactly what happened? What trooper X did at 15 minutes into the battle and how General Y chose to walk to the left of the tree rather than right?

 

But you knew *who* you fought "I killed 200 Cultists of the God of Khorne myself!  Look at these Khorne-dolls (read brotherhood of the snake for the joke) they left behind!", who your Squad mate Jimmy died "That creature with 1000 eyes just punched his primary and secondary hearts right out!", and how your Chapter Master now has a nice new Axe "We reforged this from the Daemon's Weapon itself!!! Hoorar!!".

 

Especially as most of the Marines in question *were there*, with thier long lives.

 

 

Regular marines certainly can be mind-wiped; due to the extreme value of a space marine, the process for mind-wiping them is more involved and gentler (read: more expensive and involving far less collateral damage, leaving them with memories that aren't forbidden) than the mind-wipes used on, say, guardsmen (who are 'lucky' to be mind-wiped and lose maybe everything up to and including their name...but it's that or just death).

 

Except no SW has been mind wiped.  Ever. And *all* the chapters know the names of the 4 ruinous powers.  And they all have scrolls and honours for killing Daemons, and the names of the Daemons they killed...

 

I actually can't think of a single chapter specific BL book, where that chapter has been subjected to a mind wipe after meeting a Daemonic force.

 

And it would be utterly strange for them to be mind wiped, but still left with the knowledge that Khonre is the Blood God.  Or that this single squad out of the whole chapter has no idea about the Victory on Nameless Wrod where the 'great enemy' was defeated.

 

It just no longer happens.

[thade]

And it would be utterly strange for them to be mind wiped, but still left with the knowledge that Khonre is the Blood God.

Not strange at all. A marine needs functional knowledge of their enemies, meaning knowing a bit about Khorne and his insane and evil followers is important for their day job. If, however, in fighting said enemy they, for instance, stumble across a demonic artifact that OM needs to confiscate, but are otherwise unaffected/untainted by the experience, I can see that being wiped.

 

It also depends on what Chapters we're talking about here. Successor chapters don't have the pull or power of the founding legions; they don't have those stupidly ancient pacts or relics from the time of the Emperor to wave around and say "Back off." If Grimnar and the ancient Bjorn say "Back off", it's a good idea to back off; as we discussed before, in-fighting is a question of resources like any other fight, and usually comes down to posturing (so as to spare resources on both sides). Who wins the posturing battle? Well, in the case of a legion, they do. (Really I feel that the only power in the Imperium that could call a Legion to task is another legion...probably at least two other legions. Unless we're talking about the Templar, in which case it's a good idea to just let them do whatever they want.) In the case of some 7th founding chapter, probably the Inquisition comes out on top there.

 

That said, if a Captain agrees that his marines should have knowledge of said-artifact eradicated, that will definitely happen.

It just no longer happens.

I admit I'm lacking in a citation here, but I'm not so sure that it never happens. The galaxy is a rather big place, as they say.

[Gentlemanloser]

The point is they shouldn't know *anything* about the Chaos Gods.

 

If a Marine knows Khorne exists, and what Khorne is, then they know Daemons exists.  They know that Khornes minions attempt to breach into real space, and that's a bad thing.

 

It's then pointless to mind wipe them after they successfully beat down a Khorne incusion into real space.

 

You mind wipe them, so the knowledge that Daemons exist is removed.

 

Which is really rather pointless when any SW you might meet knows that Logan weilds a mighty Axe that was once a Daemons Weapon...

 

"Brother, you can't mean that there are these 'things' from the immatrium, that want to devour our souls"

"Of course Brother!  Our Chapter master weilds a mighty weapon we refoged from one!"

"Emperor Protect..."

"Besides, you were standing next to me last week when we sent that Daemon incurasion back to the Warp!"

"What?"

"Er, you mean you've been mind wiped?  Opps..."

[thade]

I mean, what you're saying is very true. It comes down to perspective.

 

From the Chapter's perspective, they handle themselves and have a job to do and the Inquisition can take a hike. Actually this is chapter dependent. As a matter of honor and old pacts, an accused may simply go with the Inquisition. (Consider the Captain in the end of the Space Marine video game.) As a matter of pride or perceived difference in authority, the accused may simply tell the Inquisition to take a hike. (Consider Logan and the Wolves in The Emperor's Gift.) Not to mention the fact that Space Marines in general have hardier bodies and minds than normals, and they are trained by their own Chapter Librarians to resist the lures of the warp, so there's not always reason to purge every last shred of knowledge from them.

 

From the Inquisition's perspective...well that's a bit harder to gauge as it can very wildly from one Inquisitor to the next. Some of them (rightly, I feel) trust the loyalist marines; others are actively more skeptical. Again, The Emperor's Gift and Space Marine are great examples here. Frankly, Logan's weapon is a point of contention with the Inquisition (as well as his attitude) but he's the Chapter Master of one of the original (and arguably the strongest) original legions. We saw posturing come to blows there, however briefly.

 

Consider what likely happened with the captain in the end of Space Marine. From the player's point of view he's obviously not corrupted, either by the artifact or the sheer number of spawn and traitors he needs to tangle with over the second half of the game. The Inquisitor shows up with a second (bigger) Legion, the Black Templar, and they ask him to accompany them. Here we see some posturing (Do you want to pick a fight between Ultras and BT, Captain?) and we see some honor (In the Captain going along.) but what would become of him? Execution? Selective mind wipe? Did they make him an Inquisitor? (I'd like to guess the latter, but who's to say?)

 

We agree that the marines require a functional knowledge of the traitor legions, blanketed with a severe dose of hypnotic indoctrination to steel them against the lures of their "brothers".

[L30n1d4s]

Gents, nice discussion and all, but a bit off topic. Perhaps start a separate thread on whether SMs get mind wiped or not after the boys in grey come through?

 

Returning to the question at hand, any thought on using GK Locator Beacons (on Stormravens) or Mystics to bring in Dreadknightsmon turn 2?

 

A large part of the idea is to overwhelm the enemy with MCs without having to pay the hefty price of a PT each NDK.

[thade]

Returning to the question at hand, any thought on using GK Locator Beacons (on Stormravens) or Mystics to bring in Dreadknightsmon turn 2?

 

A large part of the idea is to overwhelm the enemy with MCs without having to pay the hefty price of a PT each NDK.

I think you'll want two Inquisitors with Psy Communion (or two HQs anyway) so you can really push to get those guys in as early as possible. Otherwise your rather expensive (SR) or fragile (mystics) locator beacons may not survive being so outnumbered while they wait for the DK support. This is especially true if you're footslogging DKs with Incinerators (which is common) since DSing them with a full scatter later-game is a recipe for losing them.

 

I may misremember, but I think servoskulls reduce DS scatter for friendlies within their bounds by a d6? And they're cheap and help with early game deployment control. Warpquake can further help to secure your deployment here, letting you drop your DKs wherever you like.

 

Keep in mind I've never done this before (I own zero Stormravens and zero mystics) but I rather like the sound of it.

[Gentlemanloser]

Don't forget a Relay beacon on an Aegis.

 

Also, don't forget that any allies you might have gain *no* benefit from *any* reserve manipulations you might have.  Including anything they might bring themselves...

 

(So don't run the GK as allies here!)