Upstartes Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Can an independent character attached to a squad inside a transport remain on the transport when the rest of the squad disembarks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerbjørn Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 That depends a bit on how you read the section on leaving and joining units on page 39 of the BRB. It says that the IC may choose to leave the unit he is with, not that the unit may leave him behind. So no. Does this make sense? No, not even remotely, but that seems to me to be RAW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelballer Posted March 20, 2013 Share Posted March 20, 2013 I agree with Seahawk. As for what Panzer said, my take would be that the IC elects to "leave the unit" by staying in the transport, and the corresponding unit gets out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It is no different than if they were all on the table and the IC "left" because you did not move him with the squad. He stays behind and is no longer joined to that unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerbjørn Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It is no different than if they were all on the table and the IC "left" because you did not move him with the squad. He stays behind and is no longer joined to that unit.But isn't that why it is interesting to read the bit about how ICs may leave or join units. I realise that this does not make sense as such, but given that 40k is a permissive ruleset (i.e. it tells us what we can do and if it doesn't tell us something, then we can't do it) unless it says somewhere in the rulebook that a unit can leave an IC, then it appears that only the IC may leave a unit. I may have overlooked something, and if so, I'll happily stand corrected, but by RAW, it doesn't look like you can move your squad away from an IC. By all means, point me to something that contradict this, but if not, then it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 There is no minimum distance for a move. A move of 0" is still a move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 There is no minimum distance for a move. A move of 0" is still a move. Maybe, but if I recall it correctly a character who ends his move within coherency is considered to join the unit, so moving the character first zero inches results in his not managing to leave the unit behind and he joins it again automatically at the end of the null-move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I belive dswanick said it best in another recent thread dswanick, on 20 Mar 2013 - 11:32, said: It falls under their "what are you, daft?!?" rule... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Heh, the "what are you daft?!? Of course our rules are clear, concise and robust!!!" rule? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerbjørn Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 There is no minimum distance for a move. A move of 0" is still a move.I think you'll find that the rule book disagrees with you. If you don't move, heavy weapon units don't have to snapfire... Paragraph 4 on page 39 states that An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. Forget for a second that it seems crazy that the unit cannot leave the IC (Hey, there is no shortage of crazy in this game), what would you say and which rules would you point to if someone said to you that the move which Upstartes describes is illegal? I was under the impression that +OR+ dealt with the actual rules that we all have in our BRB, not the house rules that we use to make the games flow better. I belive dswanick said it best in another recent thread dswanick, on 20 Mar 2013 - 11:32, said: It falls under their "what are you, daft?!?" rule... I also think it's very daft that Abaddon has to answer the challenge from some random Imperial Guard sargeant, but it is what it is. Heh, the "what are you daft?!? Of course our rules are clear, concise and robust!!!" rule? Amusingly, unles there is a rule that conflicts with the IC rules on page 39, then this rule is actually pretty clear, concise and straight forwards. Silly? Yes, absolutely, but pretty clear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Upstartes Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 So, by strict rules reading, it does appear that the IC can't stay on the transport. Related: based on this discussion I would assume that the IC can leave the transport while the squad remains behind, or the IC can leave the transport and separate from the unit while the unit also disembarks. Interesting. Bottom line: that Dark Angels techmarine with a powerfield generator, attached to a squad in a land raider can't stay on the land raider when the squad dumps out - at least not by strict RAW (so it would appear). Good to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 There is no minimum distance for a move. A move of 0" is still a move.I think you'll find that the rule book disagrees with you. If you don't move, heavy weapon units don't have to snapfire... Paragraph 4 on page 39 states that An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. Forget for a second that it seems crazy that the unit cannot leave the IC (Hey, there is no shortage of crazy in this game), what would you say and which rules would you point to if someone said to you that the move which Upstartes describes is illegal? I was under the impression that +OR+ dealt with the actual rules that we all have in our BRB, not the house rules that we use to make the games flow better. Can you please quote for me the rule that says a model must move over 0"? The only rules I can find are: "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phaes.", BRB, pg.10 Unless I'm mistaken, 0" does not exceed the range of "up to 6"". and: "You may decide that only some of the models in a unit are going to move this turn. If this is the case, declare which models are remaining stationary just before you start moving the other models of that unit.", BRB, pg.10 So, unless I "declare" that the IC is remaining stationary before moving the other models, he is moving (0") and thus will have moved out of unit coherency, and thus becomes unattached. Or, we can just agree that the rule is silly as written and accept that the IC and the unit can detach regardless of who moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 ... So, unless I "declare" that the IC is remaining stationary before moving the other models, he is moving (0") and thus will have moved out of unit coherency, and thus becomes unattached. Or, we can just agree that the rule is silly as written and accept that the IC and the unit can detach regardless of who moves. You'll get no argument from me that this isn't a silly argument, these are the best kinds of arguments. Reach the learned conclusion and then ignore it anyway. Perhaps this comes down to exactly when the character 'activates' to leave the unit. The movement phase is done element by element, right? Does the chacter activate seperately when it want's to leave and moves to satisfy the conditions of not being in the unit, or does the unit as a whole activate and whither the chacter's part of it is conditionally checked at the end of the move? Perhaps it's like unit coherency in general in so far as it's not in place while the unit is moving, only at the beginning and end of the movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 The whole issue is this statement; Paragraph 4 on page 39 states that An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. But it's not a clear cut as some are making it. *how* does an IC 'move out of coherency'? Does the IC have to move 2+ inches to qualify? How about if the IC moves 1" and the Squad moves 1", leaving the IC 2" away, and now out of coherency. Surely that's ok? If so, then why can't the IC move 0" and the Squad moves 2+? Why can the IC declare he's staying still, and the Squad moves 2+. The result is the same, the IC ends up over 2" away, and out of coherency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 The movement phase is done element by element, right? Does the chacter activate seperately when it want's to leave and moves to satisfy the conditions of not being in the unit, or does the unit as a whole activate and whither the chacter's part of it is conditionally checked at the end of the move?No, the Movement phase is nor parsed on a model-by-model basis. If it were it would be nearly impossible to move a Jump Infantry unit 12" because the first model moved would be out of unit coherency.the rulebook specifies that a unit is selected to move, and doesn't break this procedure down much more except in certain cases such as the above mentioned choice not to move, and situations such as difficult terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 No, the Movement phase is nor parsed on a model-by-model basis. ... ... ? You got model by model from "element by element"? When the action is complete the character and the squad are different units, right? At the start of the phase they're part of the same unit, right? Precisely when does the character become its own unit? This is part of the question I was driving at. When the division is desired is the character selected as a unit while joined to the squad and required to effect the separation itself, or is the unit selected and the characters membership evaluated at the end of the move? I suspect the latter is correct. If the unit was in rough terrain would you roll dice once to establish how far all the models could go,or would you roll once for the character and once for the squad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 There is no minimum distance for a move. A move of 0" is still a move.I think you'll find that the rule book disagrees with you. If you don't move, heavy weapon units don't have to snapfire... Paragraph 4 on page 39 states that An Independent Character can leave a unit during the Movement phase by moving out of unit coherency with it. Forget for a second that it seems crazy that the unit cannot leave the IC (Hey, there is no shortage of crazy in this game), what would you say and which rules would you point to if someone said to you that the move which Upstartes describes is illegal? I was under the impression that +OR+ dealt with the actual rules that we all have in our BRB, not the house rules that we use to make the games flow better. Can you please quote for me the rule that says a model must move over 0"? The only rules I can find are: "Models move up to 6" in the Movement phaes.", BRB, pg.10 Unless I'm mistaken, 0" does not exceed the range of "up to 6"". and: "You may decide that only some of the models in a unit are going to move this turn. If this is the case, declare which models are remaining stationary just before you start moving the other models of that unit.", BRB, pg.10 So, unless I "declare" that the IC is remaining stationary before moving the other models, he is moving (0") and thus will have moved out of unit coherency, and thus becomes unattached. Or, we can just agree that the rule is silly as written and accept that the IC and the unit can detach regardless of who moves. A model staying in a transport isnt moving 0", its simply not disembarking- and there appears nothing in the rules that would allow one to do that. Why? Because hes not on the board to be shown as part of the unit moving 0" or not. A units disembarkation move begins by placing them all within 6" of the access point. If you arent doing that, you arent disembarking the whole unit, as that includes the IC at this point. There are no rules for partial disembarkation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calnus Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Umm, maybe you guys have overlooked something. Notably, transport rules. if the IC disembarks within 2" of the transport, he can simply re-embark. The unit just has to move out of coherency with him so that he gains his IC status back on the disembark. Note that the restriction on disembarking and embarking doesn't apply because once the unit has moved, the IC is no longer part of it and has ended his move within 2" of the access point, satisfying both criteria for boarding the vehicle. So it doesn't matter if the IC can disembark or not. If he does, he can just climb back on once he is seperated from the unit. Sure, he can't move because he already did with the unit (moving out of coherency), but since he ended his move in a valid location to embark a transport, you're still good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Calnus - a 'model' cannot disembark then embark in the same movement phase regardless of whether it leaves a unit or not. You're trying to bend the rules but by RAW you're breaking them. An independent character on his own is effectively a unit of 1 model. Regardless of leaving the unit he is still "a unit that has disembarked this turn" so cannot embark either the same transport or any other for that matter. In 5th, I seem to remember that it specifically stated that an independent character could be left behind in the transport (IIRC). Now I don't have my BRB to hand so can't check to see if its still there or not. If it's there it'll be in the independent character rules somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 A model staying in a transport isnt moving 0", its simply not disembarking- and there appears nothing in the rules that would allow one to do that. Why? Because hes not on the board to be shown as part of the unit moving 0" or not. A units disembarkation move begins by placing them all within 6" of the access point. If you arent doing that, you arent disembarking the whole unit, as that includes the IC at this point. There are no rules for partial disembarkation. "INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS & TRANSPORTS ... The unit and the Independent Character(s) can, in a later Movement phase, disembark together as a single unit. Alternatively, they can seperate by either the unit or the Independent Character(s) disembarking wile the other remains aboard. ...", BRB, pg.79 ... ? You got model by model from "element by element"?What other elements of a unit are there besides models? Precisely when does the character become its own unit? This is part of the question I was driving at. When the division is desired is the character selected as a unit while joined to the squad and required to effect the separation itself, or is the unit selected and the characters membership evaluated at the end of the move?When the IC and the unit end their move not in unit coherency. So, yeah, end of the move. I suspect the latter is correct. If the unit was in rough terrain would you roll dice once to establish how far all the models could go,or would you roll once for the character and once for the squad?One difficult terrain test that applies to all models in the unit (unit and IC), and the IC would have to be able to end the move out of coherency. Only then would be be unattached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Orlock Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 ... ? You got model by model from "element by element"?What other elements of a unit are there besides models? Units selected on the Org Chart are elements of the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 dswanick - good to know my memory hasn't failed me completely... even if I allowed some doubt to seep in as to whether I was right or not... :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 A model staying in a transport isnt moving 0", its simply not disembarking- and there appears nothing in the rules that would allow one to do that. Why? Because hes not on the board to be shown as part of the unit moving 0" or not. A units disembarkation move begins by placing them all within 6" of the access point. If you arent doing that, you arent disembarking the whole unit, as that includes the IC at this point. There are no rules for partial disembarkation. "INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS & TRANSPORTS ... The unit and the Independent Character(s) can, in a later Movement phase, disembark together as a single unit. Alternatively, they can seperate by either the unit or the Independent Character(s) disembarking wile the other remains aboard. ...", BRB, pg.79 Ah, well done- I swear I looked through the vehicle rules three times and just missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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