controversial painting question - opinions please!

[elphilo]

taking the fluff on a bit further.....

What's the progression look like? I know the usual is Scout - Devastator - Assault - Tactical but after that is it Sergeant - Deathwing - Deathwing Sergeant - Veteran Sergeant - Deathwing Knight - Company Master...?

How does it work for a tactical marine in a battle company?

Cheers

I think the whole veteran sergeant after the deathwing may no longer exist. The company veterans, sometimes they fight as a unit (the codex entry) but alot of the time they are part of their parent squad/unit. So the veteran sergeant just appears to be a company veteran with the rank of sergeant.

Also not sure where the ravenwing come is as at some point along the line they are also selected for that if they show prowess in fast attack or on bikes??

In the Ravenwing book by Gav Thorpe, the Veteran Sergeant that leads the 5th Company element is an Inner Circle member. Therefore at some point in his career he was a member of the Deathwing. So I think its very fluffy to have a Deathwing member given the Veteran Sergeant post in a Tactical Squad.

However would he carry a terminator cross or a crux terminatus in the shoulder pad?

Good question! I have no idea! Space Marine fluff says yes, but I don't know how the DA would handle it. I don't remember if it mentioned the Veteran Sergeant wearing one, as I was at first surprised when he was talking to Sam/Librarian/Chaplain about some fallen. Though it could of been mentioned and I just forget

[EPK]

If the Vet Sarge is wearing a Crux, it would ruin the illusion that he is nothing more than a veteran Battle Co. Sergeant - which is the idea. I don't believe even Sammy or the other HQs even realized he was part of the Inner Circle at first either if I remember correctly.

[Brother Immolator]

Then probably the answer is neither.

[marvmoogy]

I'll have to read the book again.  It's sitting on the shelf, but I have that horrible thing called work getting in the way :(

[Bryan Blaire]

I think that the concept of Circles in Circles, with the outermost circle being the Deathwing, then to layers of circles within the Deathwing, to Inner Circle, then the ultimate circle at the center of the SGM says otherwise than the suggested circle ven diagram of the Deathwing separate from the Inner Circle as suggested, or other Circles outside of Circles concepts.

 

The idea that the Deathwing is the start and the circles are concentric working their way in hasn't been destroyed, unless you want to see it that way, which is your right in the "loose canon" atmosphere of 40K.

 

There is no pure "right" for canon in 40K other than basic concepts (Imperium, Emperor, Chaos, races involved, etc). Everything, including the Codexes (except the Horus Heresy - per word of the 40K gods), is full of truths, half-truths and lies. It's up to the reader to pick which is which.

 

If you want bone white PA, that's your prerogative.

[FarFromSam]

Interested to see the answer to whether or not they knew the sergeant was privy to the fallen.  I don't remember Sammael,etc being surprised by it, but I may have skimmed over it.  

 

Personally to represent vet status I paint the under part of the robes purple.  I mix robed marines in every squad (aside from jump pack squads), and purple robes help the sergeants stand out.  (Plus if you want to display your inner circle together it provides a unifying color.)  I plan on having my veteran squad, and command squad sport bone helms since not all of them will be in robes.

 

I would love to see how your bone PA sergeants look leading green brothers.  I imagine it will look very striking and make the army unique.  DO IT!

[Brother Immolator]

I'll have to read the book again. It's sitting on the shelf, but I have that horrible thing called work getting in the way

Want to exchange with me? :D

[marvmoogy]

Right - re: Ravenwing....the veteran sergeant is the commander of the battle-company detachment fighting with the Ravenwing. He is privy to the hunt for the fallen, but the troops he commands obviously don't know this. Sammy, Mr Libby and Mr Chaplain have a bit of a meeting with him discussing intel and tactics

I'll have to read the book again. It's sitting on the shelf, but I have that horrible thing called work getting in the way

Want to exchange with me?

I really do love my job.....but right now (with about 7000 points of stuff to paint) I'd happily swap! :)

[marvmoogy]

a bit of an update from Gav Thorpe's "The purging of Kadillus":

 

Master Belial......."He was wearing full armour, his personal standard hanging from a back banner, the white robes of the Deathwing over his green armour" - this was from the time when Belial was a Company Master

[Azoriel]

 

 

Deathwing don't take to the field in anything less than terminator armor. So in a purely fluff sense there's no bone coloured power armor suits. Look at company masters, they have all previously been in the deathwing and yet when wearing power armor its your usual dark green.

 

Don't mean to pss on your fire m8 but i think the whole concept of the deathwing is that if your currently serving in it then you fight in terminator armor and WITH the rest of the deathwing forces.

 

Think along the lines of the Phalanx.

Actually, in Angels of Darkness, the power armored marines all paint their armor bone white after Boreas inducts them into the Deathwing.  Also, in the 3rd Edition codex, you could pay extra points to induct your vet sergeants into the Deathwing (and they'd still be wearing power armor after the fact).  As such, Deathwing could (interchangably) be used to refer to the first company, as well as having been read into the most basic level of knowledge pertaining to the fallen.

 

In 6th edition codex tactical marines dont have "the inner circle" special rule. In the 6th edition codex it says that they ONLY take to the field in power armor. In the 6th edition codex it states that the progression is: deathwing, deathwing knight then master. We could quote our thebooks all days...

 

Deathwing may well "could" be used to refer to the first company back in the day but not now. Deathwing IS the first company, Deathwing ONLY take to the field in terminator armor, Deathwing IS the first step into the inner circle and company masters are NOT part of the Deathwing but ARE part of the inner circle.

 

Read the most up to date codex and quote me wrong from that.

 

Ofcourse he can paint his models anyway he likes. I'm just trying to clear up the common misunderstanding that every man and his dog is in the Deathwing and shall remain there for all of eternity. It was said in a few posts that Ezekiel, asmodai, Azrael and Sammael are all part of the Deathwing, they are not. Infact 2 of them have never been in the deathwing and never will. All are part of The inner circle in some way. The difference between the two is where people seem to get confused.

 

Not to nitpick, but...

 

DA 6th Edition Codex, page 30 (emphasis mine):

 

If a Dark Angels Chaplain can prove himself through years of heroic service, he might be found worthy of acceptance into the Inner Circle. After an arcane and convoluted ceremony in the Hall of Secrets, deep in the bowels of the Rock, the Chaplain is given the Test of Faith. Failures are led further into the dungeons and never seen again, but should he pass, he takes the solemn vow of the Deathwing and will henceforth be given the title of Interrogator Chaplain.

 

 

 

 

Of course, this simply means every interrogator-chaplain takes the same oathes as a Deathwing inductee - whether or not you'd call an Interrogator-Chaplain a member of the Deathwing comes down to how exclusive you consider the Deathwing tag to be. 

 

"Naught-aww, Boreas!  You can't say you're part of the Deathwing!  I mean, you might have taken the Deathwing oathes, but you were never actually assigned to the First Company!"

 

"Oh, yeah?  Well, how about Sammael over there, huh?  He's wearing Deathwing veteran's robes, right?  It says so in the new Ravenwing novel!"

 

"Yeah, but he's in the Ravenwing, so he's not allowed to say he's Deathwing either!  He could say he's ex-Deathwing, but that's it!"

 

(The more I think about it, though, I'll concede that it's technically incorrect to refer to either of these individuals as Deathwing, even if they both made Deathwing oathes earlier in their careers - the term "Inner Circle" would be more accurate.)

[Brother Immolator]

Brothers....Since when do we have an inquiry as to Ichaps been deathwing or not? Its clear in the codex that they are.

[elphilo]

Honestly, I don't feel wearing a Crux Terminatus on a shoulder pad is the DA way. The more I think about it, the more I feel that the robe is the symbol of being a member of the Inner Circle/Deathwing. That's my take and I'm sticking to it

Brothers....Since when do we have an inquiry as to Ichaps been deathwing or not? Its clear in the codex that they are.

Because we have to argue about something?

[Brother Immolator]

Yeah to be honest the crux on a power armored DA marine... Might have never seen it, now that I think of it.

But the cross has been on a few models. Company master Including.