Did I read that right......

[BugbugsDaddy]

According to the new DA codex, I'm reading that my command squad can have 1 Apoth (chainsword and narthecium), 1 Company Champ (bolt pistol, combat shield, and sword), and 3 guys with dual boltguns (ie can exchange chainsword for a bolter, then can exchange the bolt pistol for a bolter).  Is this correct?  If so, does it mean that I get twin linked bolters??

[Artemid]

You still only pick one weapon the model's armed with to shoot with, so you're still just shooting with a regular bolter.

[BugbugsDaddy]

So in essence, I could equip both a bolter and a flamer (or melta, or plasma gun), and pick which one to use.....hmmmmm the options.....oh boy.....this is gonna take some thinkin'. muahahahahaaaaa!!!!

[march10k]

I like the dual boltgun idea...very duke nukem!

[Artemid]

So in essence, I could equip both a bolter and a flamer (or melta, or plasma gun), and pick which one to use.....hmmmmm the options.....oh boy.....this is gonna take some thinkin'. muahahahahaaaaa!!!!

If rules allow, yes. I don't know if it works like this on the vets though.

[march10k]

So in essence, I could equip both a bolter and a flamer (or melta, or plasma gun), and pick which one to use.....hmmmmm the options.....oh boy.....this is gonna take some thinkin'. muahahahahaaaaa!!!!

If rules allow, yes. I don't know if it works like this on the vets though.

They don't. You may replace the boltpistol with a flamer. You may replace the chainsword with a flamer. You may replace BOTH with ONE flamer...but you may not replace the chainsword with a flamer AND replace the bolt pistol with a plasma gun, for example...you may replace either default weapon, or both, with ONE item from the list of options...you don't get to pick two if you drop both pistol and sword. Sadly...BUT it does make my flamer/chainsword model "legal":

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff471/headhuntersix/WIP/PICT0369.jpg

http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff471/headhuntersix/WIP/PICT0367.jpg

[JeffJedi]

Then how do you get two Lightning Claws?

[march10k]

Then how do you get two Lightning Claws?

You don't.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I respectfully disagree; and/or means each one can be replaced for something on the list. Otherwise it would say may replace one weapon with one of the following... Essentially like Vets, or it would only have 'or' in the directions.

My choices are:

I may replace my boltpistol with a... from the list AND my chainsword with a... from the list.

I may replace my boltpistol with a... from the list OR my chainsword with a... from the list.

[march10k]

Ah, but the rule is written in standard English. "And" in the syntax used in the rule means that you may replace both with a (list of options), not that you may replace each with a (list of options).

[Interrogator Stobz]

Natural engrish implies each where I come from

[march10k]

 

I may replace my boltpistol with a... from the list AND my chainsword with a... from the list.

 

  Incorrect.  You may replace your boltpistol AND your chansword with a... from the list.

[march10k]

Natural engrish implies each where I come from

 

 

We can't rely on what natural English implies, because, as you implied, that may vary from place to place.  Standard English, as opposed to "natural" (local customary?) English, is universal.

[march10k]

The critical word here is "a." IF it said "you may [...]and/or[...] from the following list," then by the rules of standard English, the "and" would mean that each may be replaced with an item from the list. But because the word "a" is present, then no matter what you drop, only one item may be added.

Another option would be "you may replace your chainsword and/or you may replace your boltpistol with a..." That would also allow one choice for each weapon dropped, as opposed to one choice, period.

Sorry to preach...speaking three languages, the minutiae of grammar and syntax are required to be near and dear to my heart, lest I say something embarrassing in German or Japanese

[Interrogator Stobz]

It's Gee Dub english, I appreciate your lesson and had considered exactly those thoughts already. However I am positive that GW would want twin LCs and that is why they used the messy and/or term in that entry.

I don't enjoy arguements on interpretations due to the different levels of comprehension of us the players, GW has always aimed their sloppy writing at the lowest common denomenator and I read it in that context.

[MadDoc]

If somebody wants to more than double the cost of a single model (meltagun and plasmagun) for negligible (if any) benefit, or model a figure with pointless combinations (two bolters, cool, still only get to use one) thats their business.

 

I personally don't see the point, but that'll just be my common sense kicking in...

[march10k]

~shrug~  I drew precisely the opposite conclusion from the lightning claws consideration...note that the stupid metal veteran squad sets include several models with one claw, and none with two.  I don't think GW wants lightning claws to, by default, come in pairs.  Also, when they offer the option of a pair of claws, they actually state "or a pair of claws" as a separate option, and five points cheaper than two individual claws.  I'm also certain that they did not intend that you be allowed to take a plasma gun and a flamer on the same model, which your interpretation would allow.

 

Mad doc,  There would be some benefit to taking a boltgun plus a flamer...it's cheaper than a combi-flamer, for one thing!

[Interrogator Stobz]

OMG, I agree with MD ;)

I have an old vet with twin LCs so I'm not too sure about that one :P I have had them so long I forget the source. (edit; checked GW, twin claws I have are sold in the sternguard vet pack and on one of the vanilla vets).

You can only use one shootybang at time unless it's a pistol so like MD said(I think :D ) if you spend the points you can have both guns.

 

Stobz

[Boniface]

May I jump in here. The rules state and/or.

 

This means plain and simply you may exchange either your bolt pistol or chain sword for an item. The 'and' in this context is a means to exchange both for 2 items on the same list.

 

This exists so that players can have two swords for example rather than being limited to having to have a sword and pistol.

 

Otherwise they can't have a bolter and pistol as a standard marine does.

 

The simpler wording would have been may exchange 1 weapon for...

 

I think people (myself included) read into it too much.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Which is why and/or is generally frowned on in legal writing (At least where I work :P )

At least we can agree to disagree over teh intertubes, over a table it might come down to a dreadsockin'

 

:D

[Spaced Hulk]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure there's a precadent in a FAQ that specifically allows a model to exchange both weapons for two different ones. In the Space Marine Codex, the Captain/Chapter Master entries have the same wording as the DA Command Squad (eg: may replace bolt pistol and/or chainsword with one of the following...). Two of the options listed are a relic blade and a storm shield. The FAQ then has a ruling that allows a Captain to have both of those options.

The actual query wasn't regarding the wording, but because both the relic blade & storm shield have a 'requires two hands to use rule'. However, the FAQ clearly states that the model can indeed replace both of his weapons for two new ones.

It seems pretty clear cut to me, to be honest. I've also seen that many Command Squads where each model (except the Apothecary) is armed to the teeth with a plasma gun & lightning claw/power fist that it's never seemed an issue before.

If you compare the wording of our Command Squads and Company Veterans, they're quite different. For some reason our Command Squads can be armed pretty much as you like (except for some reason they can't have two plasma pistols Typically I'd already converted this combination!) while our Company Vets can only exchange a single weapon (although uniquely, they can have a bolt pistol and a pair of lightning claws! How does that work in combat? )

Just my opinion, of course, and I can see where the other side of the debate is coming from. Perhaps we should be just grateful that GW only writes rules that affect plastic toy soldiers. Imagine the chaos if they went into politics!

[Spaced Hulk]

OMG, I agree with MD

I have an old vet with twin LCs so I'm not too sure about that one I have had them so long I forget the source. (edit; checked GW, twin claws I have are sold in the sternguard vet pack and on one of the vanilla vets).

You can only use one shootybang at time unless it's a pistol so like MD said(I think ) if you spend the points you can have both guns.

Stobz

This one? http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440272a&prodId=prod1600060a

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup :D

[Arioch]

I read the text like this:

Any veteran may replace his chainsword and bolt pistol with: (One of the following options)

OR

Replace his bolt pistol with (One of the following options)

This allows for no dual claws or fists, but you can take a plasmapistol as a sidearm if you want

[Brother Tyler]

Games Workshop has already clarified this.

 

When the rule reads that a model may "...replace his X and/or Y with Z" it means that the replacement is done on an individual weapon basis. So weapon X may be replaced with Z (keeping Y), weapon Y may be replaced with Z (keeping X), or weapon X may be replaced with Z and weapon Y may be replaced with Z (resulting in having two of Z).

 

When the rule reads that a model may "...replace X and Y with Z" then if the replacement is made, the model loses both X and Y and ends up with Z.

 

So when "and/or" comes between the stock weapons, the replacements are done on an individual basis.

 

IIRC, this was FAQed in 4th/5th edition when the convention first started being used in the codices, and it has been demonstrated ever since through the models and the composition of units in White Dwarf battle reports.