Questions about the Maulerfiend

[Hellrender]

I'm just rather confused with the wording of the text.

1) The rule for Magma cutters says: if you hit with 1 attack, you get 1 attack from the magma cutters (this part is clear).

It also states, that if you hit with all it's attacks, you get 2 attacks from the magma cutters instead. Now i wonder.

Is this just the base attacks (so 2), is this incl bonus attacks? (like 2 PF's) etc.

In short: with how many attacks do you need to hit, to get the 2 attacks from magma cutters.

2) When you upgrade to Lasher Tendrils, do you replace both magma cutters, for 2 tendrils for 10 points?

Or do you replace 1 magma cutter for 1 tendril for 10 points? (this 20 points total).

The upgrade it self seems clear. But the example given at the Lasher Tendril entry, indicates you might have 1 aswell, or is that only under weapon destroyed?

Thanks in advance for any answers, hope to give 2 a shot next week with some proxies, before i dare to buy them

[totgeboren]

I think you are supposed to see both the Magma cutters and the Tendrils as one system. That is, you can change one system for the other for the points indicated, and the number of extra hits you get are not linked to the number of barrels the Magma cutters have.

 

That means you need to hit with all its attacks  to get two extra hits, just like the rules says.

[Sception]

tot's right.  It's in the FAQ.

[Dam13n]

Yes it's magma cutters or lasher tendrils, never neither or both ;)

 

We if you get 1+ normal hit with your base attacks then that means 1 bonus hit.

 

You only get 2 bonus hits if you hit with all attacks (2 basic + 1 for 2 DreadCCWs + charge bonus if applicable all scoring hits)

 

With WS3 that's rather unlikely unless attacking a stationary vehicle.

[Xenith]

 

With WS3 that's rather unlikely unless attacking a stationary vehicle.

 

It's almost like they were designed to take out fortifications... :P

 

It's all in the FAQ.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Personnaly i like the Maulerfiend, mine has a few Land Raiders and Vindis in his thropies list. Now yeah sadly you can't mix and match the divers options. WOuld have been interessting to be able to exchange ONE magma cutter for ONE Tendril. You would have 1 Extra Fusion hit and take away ONE attack from ennemy models at the same time, would have been really usefull against Dreads etc.

[Hellrender]

It is as i thought then. Better be on the safe side. Thanks for the replies

What do people normally think is more useful then; tendrils or cutters? I was thinking of using mine as AT/anti building, and only IF it is still alive afterwards, to let it support my infantry, whcih i doubt will happen. The reviews i find on the interwebz are also divided about it.

[Iron Sage]

It is as i thought then. Better be on the safe side. Thanks for the replies

 

What do people normally think is more useful then; tendrils or cutters? I was thinking of using mine as AT/anti building, and only IF it is still alive afterwards, to let it support my infantry, whcih i doubt will happen. The reviews i find on the interwebz are also divided about it.

If thats how you intend to use it (and honestly I dont see why that would not be the best way to use such a unit), then IMO, Magma Cutters.

It`s true that you`ll probably only get to use one of them in any given Fight round, but its one additional attack using a very brutal weapon and IMO that unit needs as many attacks as possible to do what it does best, which is destroying armour and buildings.

As you say, if there are no longer armoured targets or fortifications manned by the enemy within range or left on the table, then sure, crash it into assault, but as thats usually Priority 3 (and not 1 and 2), it should IMO be best to prioritize efficiency in its priority roles, which again means Magma.

[Brother Ambroz]

For dedicated anti-tank, then yes definitely magma cutters. If you're basing your list around them, for example taking 3 maulerfiends, then I'd say go with 2 magma and 1 lasher but if you're only taking one, definitely magma.

[Brother Sergeant Scarus]

Well, it's worth noting that the extra attacks can only be made against a model you've already hit - so not the squad in general, if attacking infantry, but a model you hit and didn't wound. This actually came in handy once for me, killing the sole scout who was trying to tie up one of my fiends...

 

According to the FAQ - Magmacutters can be destroyed via 'Weapon Destroyed' results. Thanks to the walker rules this means that a fiend with Magma cutters not only gains +1 attacks for having two power fists, but also gains an extra bonus attacks as the Magmacutters are counted as an extra weapon after the first additional walker weapon... it's not clear and feels pretty gamey, but that's how my group plays it and I let them do it.

 

Also; According to the FAQ - Magmacutters can be destroyed via 'Weapon Destroyed' results, but it doesn't mention anything about Lasher Tendrils O.o - not exactly super-consistent.

 

The tendrils make it a great tarpit (combined with it's 5++ and IWND) but reduce it's offensive potential whilst increasing the cost. I tend to prefer the Cutters - but I think lashers look cooler ;)

 

Weirdly, in the edition of flyers, I've got great use out of two of them supporting a Land Raider (usually containing Kharne and some Beserkers). With the raider going flat-out and the natural speed of maulerfiends, it's quite a swift assault force (it also acts as an effective screen for any rhino's wanting to move up the field).

 

Just my thoughts.

[Dam13n]

By RAW they don't give an extra attack as they aren't a close combat weapon. They grant their "additional attacks" in a specific and special way, now they are destroyable because they grant those attacks with a weapon profile (S and AP), and anything with a weapon profile is a weapon, so can therefore be destroyed.

 

Furthermore the power fists are specialist weapons so you get +1 attack for having 2 of them, but an additional close combat weapon on top of that won't stack with the powerfists (for +2 attacks) as they aren't specialist weapons (the magma cutters are a single entity, not a pair, so you couldn't claim the 2 CCW bonus either... confusing I know, but meh, it's GW...)

 

The tendrils on the other hand are a "vehicle upgrade" that confers a special rule, so aren't weapons in their own right, hence cannot be destroyed.

 

Of course, if your local group has a house rule and all are happy with it, then that's fine. But in the world of t'internet, unless it's RAW, it's wrong... :P

[Brother Sergeant Scarus]

By RAW they don't give an extra attack as they aren't a close combat weapon. They grant their "additional attacks" in a specific and special way, now they are destroyable because they grant those attacks with a weapon profile (S and AP), and anything with a weapon profile is a weapon, so can therefore be destroyed.

Furthermore the power fists are specialist weapons so you get +1 attack for having 2 of them, but an additional close combat weapon on top of that won't stack with the powerfists (for +2 attacks) as they aren't specialist weapons (the magma cutters are a single entity, not a pair, so you couldn't claim the 2 CCW bonus either... confusing I know, but meh, it's GW...)

The tendrils on the other hand are a "vehicle upgrade" that confers a special rule, so aren't weapons in their own right, hence cannot be destroyed.

Of course, if your local group has a house rule and all are happy with it, then that's fine. But in the world of t'internet, unless it's RAW, it's wrong...

They clearly forgot about the 'non-specialist weapon' thing :D - thanks, I knew it felt wrong. Funny that, as a guy using two fiends, I was against having the extra attack but they kept telling my to use it! Good guy gamer friends ;)

I'll be pleased to tell them it's not the case.

Thanks Dam13n :)

[Brother Sergeant Scarus]

Hmm my friend just pointed out the following to me:

 

''If a walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons, it gains + I bonus Attack for each additional weapon after the first.

 

Unlike other models, this is not limited to a single bonus Attack, so a walker with three Melee weapons would have 2 bonus Attacks. If one of its additional Melee weapons is destroyed, one bonus Attack is lost. If the destroyed weapon is a Dreadnought close combat weapon, the walker loses the bonuses conferred by that Dreadnought close combat weapon (p84)''

 

As the FAQ confirms that Magmacutters are 'a single weapon' this would seem to imply that they do grant an additional attack, just due to the walker rules (despite the usual restrictions on specialist weapons).

 

Thoughts? :(

[totgeboren]

The Walker rules seem to not really care about the specialist weapon rule, as they just say ''If a walker is armed with two or more Melee weapons".

I don't think they are ment to care about specialist either. I mean, the Power Scourge doesn't have specialist, so a dread with a fist and scourge would not get an extra attack, which seems silly. Same with the Defiler.

 

Just look at how many of the weapons have the "melee" special rule and subtract one. There you go, the number of extra attacks (incidentally, the magma cutters do not have that rule).

[Hellrender]

The rule:

 

If a walker is armed with two or more melee weapons it gains +1 bonus attack for each additional weapon after the first.

 

1) So lets say the 2 power fists are the first 2 weapons, granting +1 attack. 

 

2) The Magma Cutters are melee weapon with their own profile, and the maulerfiend has 2, this could allow +2 attacks.

 

3) But: The Magma cutters provide bonus attacks ONLY when certain requirements are met (as in their special rule). So do they provide the +2 attacks (as they are a melee weapon) AND the special rule (if 1 or all hits). Or is it only the special rule?

 

Note* I did leave out anything about specialist weapons, as the Walker seems to have it's own special ruleset concerning additional attacks, my guess is that its own rule overrules the specialist rule.

[Nehekhare]

2) The Magma Cutters are melee weapon with their own profile, and the maulerfiend has 2, this could allow +2 attacks.

Magma cutters are vehicle equipment, not a weapon.

It would have to say "melee" in its weapon profile to count as an additional melee weapon for walkers (p84)

They do not have a profile of their own, they only grant additional attacks with a certain profile if certain conditions (models hits with 1/all of its attacks) are met.

In addition, regardless of the number of magma cutter a model has, they only grant one/two additional attacks, the FAQ is very clear there.

[Dam13n]

Melee weapons encompass all weapons that can be used to attack in the assault phase.

- BRB page 60

 

Walkers gain +1 attack for each melee weapon after the first.

- BRB page 84

 

Multiple Specialist Weapons don't give +1 attack unless both (read "all" for walkers) weapons have the Specialist weapon rule.

- BRB Page 42

 

The Magma Cutters rule covers the effects of both the Maulerfiend’s magma cutters, which are treated as a single weapon. They are also treated as a single weapon for the purposes of Weapon Destroyed results.

- CSM FAQ bottom of Page 2

 

Magma Cutters:

Range -

Str 8

AP 1

Armourbane

- Codex CSM page 68

 

Rules quoted (or abreviated for sake of simplicity) and:

1 - Magma cutters are weapons but actually not Melee weapons as they do not have the Melee rule in their profile.

2 - The Maulerfiend has 2 Power Fists (which have the specialist weapon special rule) it also has no option that gives it additional power fists (unlike the defiler) so can never have more than +1 attack for 2 specialist weapons.  Plus, due to the wording of the Specialist weapon USR, you can only gain additional attacks from weapons that share the specialist weapon special rule.  The Magma Cutters don't have it.

 

It seems fairly clear - Magma Cutters can give their bonus attacks but aren't in fact melee weapons when it comes to determining the number of attacks the Fiend has.

[zyl-]

That being put to rest, is there ever actually a use for lasher tendrils in a practical world? Obviously they can reduce power fist hits from a terminator squad, but why would you ever charge terminators with a mauler? And if you are charging tactical marines, they only get 1 attack with a krak grenade, which can't be reduced by 1 to 0.

 

I would much rather have lasher tendrils for chaos spawn.

[Dam13n]

I believe the intent was to make the lasher-equipped Mauler better against dreadnoughts and monstrous creatures.

 

I can sort of see the advantage against a S6 3A monster (with smash) as it'll lose 2 attacks thanks to the tendrils and 1 S6 attack isn't likely to really worry a AV12 walker (you might lose 1HP)

 

But realistically, they aren't really worth it, just too situational. The Mauler itself isn't the greatest heavy support choice anyway, Forgefiends, Obliterators, Predators and Havoks being better choices in most situations.

 

The real advantage of the Mauler is that it might soak up firepower that should be directed at the more valuable parts of your army, they are big and scary looking so might attract enemy fire. However you're then looking at an AV12 walker as a decoy/fire magnet, and while it may have a 5++ and IWND, 3HP will still disappear fast.

[Brother Ambroz]

Lasher tendrils are just really situational, they'd be decent to assist other units in large CC squads. For example, a CC squad of ours is in CC with an ork mob and the lasherfiend charges, reducing attacks that the CSM squad would be taking. This is very very situational though, isn't really worth it at all I don't think.

[minigun762]

I've mentioned before that if I took a maulerfiend, I'd keep the magma cutters for two reasons.

 

#1 They're cheaper

#2 They help insure that I get the kill on the high priority targets I'm sending my maulerfiend towards like land raiders or leman russ.