tomsev Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 hi all im currently in the process of getting a command squad built for azrael... with would be the best alrounder build? (if there is one...) i was thinking of plasma guns but in what quantity? 3 PGs, company champion and apothecary maybe 4th and 5th plasma guns instead of the 2 charactersbut i feel if they ever get into combat id want the champion for the duels and letting azrael slash at the squad... what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizara Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Well, you have to decide, are they going to be supporting him as his sits back in the backfield, creating a threat with the dakka banner, or is he going to be trying to advance to get into combat. If you are just sitting in the backfield and using them as a support unit and you are taking the dakka banner, then an apothecary, standard, and combi bolters would work best. If they are just a support unit that is protecting him as he advances across the line, then I would forgo the standard bearer, take an apothecary with power weapon, Champion, and then 3 plasmaguns to give supporting fire as they cross the battle field. If the intention is to be in hand to hand as soon as possible, then a ride to get their, drop pod for cheap, land raider for threat, or razorback for extra support are good choices, but if that is the case, tool your command squad up for close combat and go with plasma pistols if you want ranged weapons at all, maybe a flamer for easy kills when they disembark. The champion is necessary if you want to keep challenges off the apothecary and azrael, but if your goal is to not get into hand to hand unless necessary, then I would skip the champion, and use the apothecary for challenges if they get charged and you are not planning on being in close combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 i was thinking of 3 plasma guns, apothecary, company champion(i know they will get into combat sometime...) in a razorback either lasplas, twin las or assault cannons. they are more in a support role i was thinking of a little castle group: tacs, devs, azrael and command squad holding home objectives and having my ravenwing and deathwing assault, harass, capture far objectives... so i wanted a support group able to keep the enemy off my home objectives.... hope that can help... know any better setups for this roll? however i want to stay away from the SoD... sorry just one thing i noticed... u said apothecary with power weapon, if i can do that then i can do a company champion with a flamer... or apothecary with plasma gun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rizara Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 It really depends on how you view the wording. However, the apothecary does come standard with a chainsword and pistol. To upgrade him, you swap the pistol to get the narthecium. This mean he still has a chainsword that can be upgraded. The champion on the other hand, replaces their chainsword with the upgrade, but a combat shield is attached to the pistol, so the champion still has the pistol, however the combat shield does state in the wargear section that it leaves the user's hand free to wield a pistol or other weapon. So yes, you technically can give him a flamer, however, you would have to convert the shield to show the flamer still in hand of the combat shield. Again it really depends on the wording and how you percieve it, because their are some who think you can still upgrade the weapons, while others argue that once you upgrade them to the champion and apothecary, they no longer have access to it. Honestly I think it makes sense with the champion that he is unable to upgrade the pistol, but I feel the apothecary was still intended to have at least a close combat upgrade. Since you are going for a support group, then I would not bother with the champion at all. You are looking at a support group, and yes they might get into close combat, but if they are supporting your huge backline, then you should be positioning your command squad where they can't assault just the command squad, but have to assault the tac squad as well. If they are assaulting your command squad, you can always accept challenges should they issue one with your apothecary. If they are in melee already and trying to take that objective, its most likely on the last turn or two, so it wont matter having the champion, you just want to wipe out their unit. But 3 plasma guns, apothecary, and champion aren't a bad support unit, just most would rather go with 4 plasma guns, apothecary, and azrael in that case, because then you get the fnp, and invunerable save for those get hot rolls, and the extra plasmagun is much nastier should they choose to assault your command squad, because you can overwatch the chargers, and vaporize a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 ok then so its up for the 4 plasma guns and apothecary... i might push it even further and get a lasplas razorback for for the extra twin linked plasma shot and as it not gonna be moving a lascannon shot as well... thats alot of plasma... and as the apothecary can have a power weapon can he have a plasma gun? i more gun wold never do much harm... for the company champion with a flamer, i was thinking of having it slung over his shoulder with a strap... or must they be in his hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Hi, The general consensus is that neither the Champ nor the Apothecary can be further upgraded, their are a couple of threads on that so I don't want to open that can here. OT: If you want to get into CC melta(assault weapons) might be a better bet, if you want to use them as a support unit you are wasting Azzie's CC skills, the choice is yours ofc but I would take four melta or plasma pistol/CC combo, one Apothecary(only if you don't take SoF), one Dakka banner(SoD) if no SoF and get him stuck into some enemy deathstar or MC etc, sacrifice the apoth if neccessary, once in the scrap he will have limited value from then on. Just brainstorming, I have other variations in mind too. stobz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 thanks for the input stobz... but i have black knights and deathwing for clse combat what i needed was a strong backfield unt to support my home bound devs and tac squad on my objectives... so until faqed i while go against making a plasma wielding apothecary... damn... so for my backfield support unit ill have azrael with 4 plasma marines, apothecary and lasplas razorback... of course back to my rirst questiin is there better for this role? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Unless tablewide leadership is an integral part of your list, a libbrarian is a better choice to support devs. With the right powers he can give them rerolls on both attacks and armor. Just bringing it to your attention :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 i know but i need azrael to deblock both RAS and deathwing as troops... suppose i could get a libbies to leave with the devs and have azrael and command squad in razorback supporting deathwing and ravenwing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 My Command SQD's will looks look this. CC orientation Apoth, CS, BP Vet, PM, BP Vet, TH/SS Vet, PS, PP Vet, TLLC Objective Holders Apoth, CS, BP SoD, PM, BP Vet, TH/SS Vet, PS, PP Vet, PG I'll never take the Champion IMO he is a waste of 35 points. There are of course alternative load-outs for Azzi. I particularly like Max# Vets in a combined mix of CC, MG's in a Prometheus. Give the Cmd Sqd to an alternate HQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Angel Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 The apothecary only has a cs, no bp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 i know but i need azrael to deblock both RAS and deathwing as troops... suppose i could get a libbies to leave with the devs and have azrael and command squad in razorback supporting deathwing and ravenwing... If you're unlocking both, then your list probably has a little bit of everything, and not enough of anything...just saying, if you don't pick a theme and go with it, you won't do as well on the tabletop. Even though I love my deathwing, I would say that scoring bikes augment a green list (which tends to be slow, or, if mechanized, vulnerable to can-popping fire) better than scoring termies, since they let the green guys fight and not worry about hoofing it across the board to sieze a distant objective. That doesn't mean your green stuff forms a gunline and sits, it just means that they aren't pre-programmed to run straight towards an objective. Termies...are more susceptible to small arms fire (that pip of T on the bikes is HUGE) and less flexible, so you'd end up just dropping them on the objective and hoping that they weather the storm, while the bikes are able to maneuver, support by fire, and then turbo onto an objective later on....or just stay out of trouble till it's time to jet in and claim/deny an objective. If you're taking Azzy as your warlord, I'd support with bikes, not with termies, or, worse, with both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 The apothecary only has a cs, no bp. I'm not going re-model him. He actually has a Power Sword, I'm not taking it off either. Counts As. And cutting up the torso (BP) just to mollify GW is LAME. Looking at the general nurfing of an Apothecary in this Dex , yep all other Sm factions can equip their Apothecarys with both a CS & BP. Just not the DA. HMMM where have I seen something like this before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 The apothecary only has a cs, no bp. I'm not going re-model him. He actually has a Power Sword, I'm not taking it off either. Counts As. And cutting up the torso (BP) just to mollify GW is LAME. Looking at the general nurfing of an Apothecary in this Dex , yep all other Sm factions can equip their Apothecarys with both a CS & BP. Just not the DA. HMMM where have I seen something like this before. My termie apo is not going to be losing his powerfist, either...anyway, wait for the next C:UM before you start making accusations of sodomy...if they get a new dex and their apos don't get nerfed the same as ours, then whine on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pueriexdeus Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 The apothecary only has a cs, no bp. I'm not going re-model him. He actually has a Power Sword, I'm not taking it off either. Counts As. And cutting up the torso (BP) just to mollify GW is LAME. Looking at the general nurfing of an Apothecary in this Dex , yep all other Sm factions can equip their Apothecarys with both a CS & BP. Just not the DA. HMMM where have I seen something like this before. My termie apo is not going to be losing his powerfist, either...anyway, wait for the next C:UM before you start making accusations of sodomy...if they get a new dex and their apos don't get nerfed the same as ours, then whine on! Just speaking from prior experience. Though It could be a direction GW is moving toward to keep the Apoth out of CC if possible. After all his function is to tend to the wounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 ...in which case making him a part of the command squad instead of, for example a "one per HQ character" squad upgrade is stupid, given that most of the command squad options are designed to make the squad...more CC capable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted March 23, 2013 Author Share Posted March 23, 2013 so termies and greenwing arent the best mix... guess it will be green and black wing... so in this type of list what would you lot run a close combat command squad? and are Th/SS nessesary as azrael gives then all 4++?? or what about a 9 man assault squad without jump packs in a free rhino? i feel 10 man combat based vet squads are gonna need a land raider to get them to the grit of things, therefore making them very very expensive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 i know but i need azrael to deblock both RAS and deathwing as troops... suppose i could get a libbies to leave with the devs and have azrael and command squad in razorback supporting deathwing and ravenwing... If you're unlocking both, then your list probably has a little bit of everything, and not enough of anything...just saying, if you don't pick a theme and go with it, you won't do as well on the tabletop. That my dear friend, is a mistake with our new leaflet. Example: If you play with full ravenwing, good luck with the new deamons and the MOCs if you dont have a CC/DWKs terminator squad crammed somewhere.You also need heavy bolters to up the shots they are capable of deploying 20 man squads for dirt cheap. Bikes on their own and terminators on their own are not going to cut it. Day by day I am more convinced of the multywing aproach in this edition. so termies and greenwing arent the best mix... guess it will be green and black wing... so in this type of list what would you lot run a close combat command squad? and are Th/SS nessesary as azrael gives then all 4++?? or what about a 9 man assault squad without jump packs in a free rhino? i feel 10 man combat based vet squads are gonna need a land raider to get them to the grit of things, therefore making them very very expensive... It is but one approach and it is a difficult one to boot. Solo ravenwing is the most difficult (but then biker armies had always been). Terminators with greenwing are to be used as in the space marine codex: Deploy your greenwing and hammer the enemy, while the terminator delivery system throws them in place to close the anvil and poking them from two sides simultaneously, it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted March 23, 2013 Author Share Posted March 23, 2013 so multi wing can cut it itjust has to be done right... thats the impression i got when test playing the triple wings... mistakes are paid for but when it works it really works... i also like my own home objective castle up group that consists of: a 5man tac squad with flamer, combi flamer, a 3 missile launcher dev squad and azrael and his command squad with their razorback... that is all castled up on my home objective and its only been completly over run once or twice... i know it can be beaten but when you ave everithing else knocking on your door to break face on your side of the board... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 It works for me. A lot more than the Ravenwing biker list I had in 5th with the new additions. While Ravenwing became awesome, so did the new threats on the battlefield. There is just too much coversave ignoring these days. I view both wings (Death/Raven) as the precision tools I need to drive into the enemies black heart, cut it out and throw it in the biohazard dump box. Meanwhile, the green marines do what they always did: HOLD THE LINE, YOU WILL NOT EMBARRASS THE EMPEROR BY DYING THIS DAY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted March 23, 2013 Author Share Posted March 23, 2013 thats how i see them too i just need to figure out how to make it work and tune it to taste... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Well have you decided where they will be? Back or front (shooting / CC)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 I'm not advocating mono lists, although I run two of them myself (mechanized+DWA RW and Azzy-stator banner bolterspam). I'm saying pick one color and splash a second. Greenwing with two RASs works wonders. Deathwing with a devastator squad or two (one HBs, one LCs) in support is godlike. The one combination that I find doesn't work well for me is the one that worked in the past: black/white. Or maybe it does work, but not in the same way. In any case, I was saying that a 30/30/40 split ends up as mediocre as a fireknife. You have a partial solution for every problem, but not enough of anything to see it through to turn six. Maybe omniwing works at 2500 points...it damned well doesn't at 1850! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomsev Posted March 23, 2013 Author Share Posted March 23, 2013 ok then thanks for the replies im thinking of going gunline... not sure about tve banner... help on that front will be needed too... but im liking gun line... with a counter assault unit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 I'm not advocating mono lists, although I run two of them myself (mechanized+DWA RW and Azzy-stator banner bolterspam). I'm saying pick one color and splash a second. Greenwing with two RASs works wonders. Deathwing with a devastator squad or two (one HBs, one LCs) in support is godlike. The one combination that I find doesn't work well for me is the one that worked in the past: black/white. Or maybe it does work, but not in the same way. In any case, I was saying that a 30/30/40 split ends up as mediocre as a fireknife. You have a partial solution for every problem, but not enough of anything to see it through to turn six. Maybe omniwing works at 2500 points...it damned well doesn't at 1850!My game experience begs to differ but to each his own I guess :D The banner is almost a must have in a gunline, what help you want with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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