best build for PA command squad for azrael?

[tomsev]

how to properly exploit one... whats the best hq to use... Im actually in the process of converting/kitbash an interrogator chaplain in TDA with lion roar and MoR... wonder if i ciuld get him in there... if not il just have him in my showcase... 

 

back on opic anyway so ineed some advice on creating this force is 2-3 tac squads around the banner enough?or do i want more?

[shabbadoo]

The best HQ for Azrael is one with a Standard Bearer, Apothecary, one or two powerfists, and the rest with power weapons.  If you want Azrael to even have a chance of earning his own points back, he needs to be butchering stuff, so he needs to be with unit that butchers stuff too.  If Azrael is sitting back, he is being wasted.

[Upstartes]

One of EACH Relic may be taken per army.

 

After a lot of head-scratching, I've decided to include a champion in my PA Command Squad. He can take a challenge and allow Azzy to carve up the enemy squad. If I want Azzy to take the challenge, then the champ becomes another power weapon in the squad.

 

Apoth, Champ, Standard + Powerfist, and two basic vets (maybe with plasma pistols). That's my team. Throw them in a land raider with Azzy, a Librarian, and maybe a Techmarine. A ton of eggs in one basket, of course. But what death star isn't?

[elphilo]

One of EACH Relic may be taken per army.

This. Each is the key word here. So you can have the MoR and Lion Roar, but only one of EACH.

[shabbadoo]

Oops! I read that too fast. Edited to avoid confusion.

[march10k]

The best HQ for Azrael is one with a Standard Bearer, Apothecary, one or two powerfists, and the rest with power weapons.  If you want Azrael to even have a chance of earning his own points back, he needs to be butchering stuff, so he needs to be with unit that butchers stuff too.  If Azrael is sitting back, he is being wasted.

 

 

Couldn't agree less.  If you want a warlord to run around butchering stuff, you want Belial.  Accept no substitute.  Azzy is our second (perhaps third, behind an interrogator chaplain on a bike with the mace?) most capable character in melee...but we're not a melee chapter legion, and he's not a melee character.  You're paying a ton of points for table-wide LD10 if you take him, so wasting him on a personal quest to kill 215 points worth of stuff is just a dragon chasing his tail.  You'll have to put him in a super-fighty squad to make decent use of the lion helm, if you go that route.  Tack on another 350 points.  Oh, and you'll want a crusader to deliver them un-shot-at, so now it's more like 800 points invested in making Azzy a killing machine.  Great.  Now he has six turns to hunt down and kill at least three units if he's going to make back 800 points.  Yeah, you can skimp on the escort, and skimp on the transport.  The skimpy escort wastes the helm and makes it easier for a proper fighty enemy to hack his way to Azzy for the kill.  A drop pod means he gets to obliterate one enemy unit....and then get led around by the nose, NOT making his points back.  A rhino/razor gets blown up and then: see drop pod, minus the one enemy unit that he now won't be killing, after all.  Belial is a different story.  He has no special leadership rules that increase the downside of risking him in melee.  The sword of silence is insane.  Belial doesn't have to buy a drop pod, and his escort is a scoring unit that you were going to take anyway.  All of the fighty upside of Azzy, without the added expense and baggage.

 

Azzy can handle himself in a fight, but he's a gunline's counterassault unit.  Plug him into a devastation command squad and plop him into a gunline.  If the enemy doesn't get close enough for him to assault them, does it really matter that he didn't kill 215 points worth of enemy models?  If you fail to assault a gunline, the gunline wins.  His rites of battle and the lion helm are more than enough justification for fielding  him (depending on the rest of your army) even if he never kills a model.

 

Tomsev, three tactical squads are the bare minimum for a banner of devastation gunline.  I like mine to have plas/plas/ power sword, at 185 points per squad, and I like four of those squads piled around the banner with an azzy-led command squad bearing the banner in the middle.  you need more than counterassault for a successful gunline, though.  You need fast, tough scoring units.  Enter the ravenwing.  Azzy also unlocks bikes as scoring, so fill the other two troops slots with RASs, and then back the gunline with some lascannon devastators.  That's 740 points worth of tactical squads, ~400 points worth of bikes, 415 for azzystation squad in a rhino (more ablative armor that becomes cover when it dies!), leaving enough points for a librarian-led (for prescience) ten man devastator squad.  Just be sure to dismount azzy (alone) one turn before you expect to need him to counter-assault. 

[Brother Immolator]

I completely dissagree with the comments that he is unable to do anything in a pod and that he needs be somewhere or do something specific.

Azzy is the meaning of the word utility. He doesnt need anything, on the opossite he  enchances everything he touches.

 

I fear gentlemen you havent used him in a pod so you are misjudging him greatly. If he is dropped in the backfield of the enemy with melta guns and powerweapons there is nothing that can stop him from inflicting great harm to the enemy. The worst thing that can happen is that he will tie down a very tough unit, which you didnt want to reach your lines. At best heavy weapon,support squads and vehicles will be cut down.

 

 

Sorry march but if you are spending 200+ pts to have him on the command squad with the odd chance that he may counter assault something...He cant be everywhere in the gunline. Yes I understand he has his LD bubble and that 4++ save but I dont agree to use him anchoring a gunline. Better spend those points into keeping something more mobile for such actions.

Use a libby to enchance your gunline, roll for devination and either get missfortune or keep the primaris, thats way better.

 

My 2cs.

[Rizara]

I am torn on to what unit to attach my azrael to. In my planned mixed wing list i can't afford to have him sit back and protect the lone tac squad I am taking. I am thinking of giving him an assault squad in dropped to get himself stuck in the enemies backfield. My list will have one ravenwing squad, two death wing squads one tac squad, a nephilim, one death wing dreadnought. The idea is to have my tactical squad move towards the objective in my side of the board, the dread will draw fire and become mobile firepower, the raving wing will scout ahead and close on the enemies flanks and take out a vehicle or two in the opening turn, while azrael in drop pod and two dw squads will land behind enemy lines. I also have a librarian on bike accompanying blackknights so they will also harass the enemies strong targets. Figured if I close in on the enemies strongest units in first turn, I can just clean up during the rest of the turns.

 

For me the leadership boon just saves me on having to spend points in my units for vet sergeants. My problem is figuring out what to equip my assault squad with, flames or plasma pistols. Flanmers mean I get to field nine marines, the pistols mean more punch against armored foes but less bodies.

 

I had thought about a command squad but its just to many expensive options and so few bodies to support azrael with.

[Brother Immolator]

If you dont mind the loss of the apothecary and the extra attack in CC, they are decent option. But the furious charge trait becomes mandatory then IMHO.

Though I use it every time I drop him regardless.

[Rizara]

Yeah the apothecary is the only real loss. Problem is I have around 193 points to spend after taking everything else and the free drop pod is a nice boon for the assault squad. For those points I can take nine assault marines, two with flames, dropped and sergeant with power weapon and plasma pistol. The command squad has less bodies, but after getting the pod, apothecary, the points dwindle very fast, then it comes down to what options would work best to get some ok shooting the round I drop in, plus pack a decent punch in melee the following turns.

 

As for the cc attacks I can get way more attacks In with the cheaper assault squad, but I can,t find a way to get that feel no pain that makes the unit much more survivable.

[tomsev]

Yeah the apothecary is the only real loss. Problem is I have around 193 points to spend after taking everything else and the free drop pod is a nice boon for the assault squad. For those points I can take nine assault marines, two with flames, dropped and sergeant with power weapon and plasma pistol, but the vet sergeant upgrade is almost mandatory to the challenge taker because the normal serg isn't an independent character. The command squad has less bodies, but after getting the pod, apothecary, the points dwindle very fast, then it comes down to what options would work best to get some ok shooting the round I drop in, plus pack a decent punch in melee the following turns.

 

As for the cc attacks I can get way more attacks In with the cheaper assault squad, but I can,t find a way to get that feel no pain that makes the unit much more survivable.

i did think of the assault squad, but my main problem with this option is once they drop they have to face 1 round of enemy shooting and possible assault... a combat that they choose... not you...

just went thriugh my codex and well in the french version all sargeants of all squads are characters, so the upgrade is just for the extra attack...

[Brother Immolator]

Use the pod for cover if you cant suffer the firepower. Thats why I try to send in a command squad: FNP, inv save and the LOS blocking from the pod is a going to see them leave through it. A deathwing squad deepstiking along side them wont hurt either, but then it would be better if you have the banner of fortitude in the command squad.

 

Another option is to attach a libby. Either take the primaris power of divination if the roll aint good or the armor re-rolling one. Dice and points willing you are having this: Armor 3+ base, FNP, 4++, And re-rolls to any failed armor save or to hit.

Huge points sink but guaranteed to wreck face. I prefer them been shot than anything else in my army to be honest.

[tomsev]

so now we know what and/or means... how about a plasma gun + flamer on 2 guys, maybe fist + flamer on another and plasma gun + claw on the last vet and an apothecary... 215pts i know but that would make you think twice before charging them... or leaving your units in charging range, i mean 3 flamer templates is scary even for termies... then theres the fist and law to chop in combat with azzy backing them up...