A Return for the Plasma Pistol?

[Jolemai]

As many of you know, one of the plus points about our Assault Squads are that we can take a special weapon for every five models in the unit. During this fifth edition this was most prominently the Meltagun, however with a general meta shift towards troops for the sixth edition this choice (in my opinion)is no longer clear cut.

 

Currently we can have six different types of special weapon:

 

Flamer

Hand Flamer

Inferno Pistol

Meltagun

Plasma Gun

Plasma Pistol

 

The Flamer is the cheapest option and has seen an increase in use due to the change towards troops. It also benefits from the Overwatch rules.

 

The Hand Flamer and Inferno Pistol are simply gimmicks but do benefit from the +1A in close combat. One lacks the strength and AP of a cheaper choice the other lacks the range of a cheaper choice. My opinion is the same as most in that they should be on the RAS Sergeant (possibly as a gunslinger...)

 

The Meltagun is still a staple for most but does it lose it's efficiency now that Transports are becoming fewer? (After all, they are an easy target for Firstblood). Is it still worth taking?

 

The Plasma Gun should never be on a RAS due to the Rapid Fire rules; it's only included here for completion.

 

Which leaves us with the Plasma Pistol. With the AP of Power Swords being raised to AP3 it can sometimes be tricky to get decent AP2 into an army. Combine that with the return of Deathwing armies and various GK Terminator builds that are still around softening up a target for the inevitable assault should be made as simple as possible. While it is pricier than the Meltagun you do gain a +1A in combat and more often that not, the best way to down AP2 in combat is through weight of attacks. Could this forgotten relic of the RAS be more viable?

 

Combine this with the RAS Sergeant equipped with either one or two Plasma Pistols and your squad becomes a scarier target for Terminators and their ilk.

 

This can be bolstered/mitigated with our force multipliers. If you have a squad of jumping RAS they are rarely out of range of a Snaguinary Priest. If you roll a one to hit, you get a FNP roll should you fail your armour save (The Priest can also have a Plasma Pistol for more shots). Then we have the staple Librarian that often accompanies these. If you decide to go with Divination rather than the Codex powers then Prescience will also mitigate any plasma failures as well as increasing the damage.

 

What are your thoughts? Only Plasma Pistols have not been mentioned for a long time and not at all during this edition. Do we now have a viable alternative to the Flamer and the Meltagun?

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

A Blood Angels player I've met a few times in my local area swears by them - he uses 1 or 2 in a squad, with 1 or 2 flamers. He did the same during 5th ed. I've only played him once or twice but the unit is plainful enough for you to take note, and because there isn't too much plasma (i.e. flamers help keep the cost down) its not even that satisfying to wiped the off the board because he has a lot more models. You do still need anti-tank though - he solved that with Podding Melta-Devestators.

[Ushtarador]

My problem with plasmapistols is that they cost a lot, and they can only be taken on the guy that has the much needed special CCW. This makes for a very expensive model that can be challenged and killed quite easily. If you give him 2 pistols, he usually kills himself and costs already as much as e.g. a DA librarian. If you need to sink 15 points somewhere feel free, but I think they are too costly for what they do.

 

Now if handflamers were only 5 points I would most likely take them, but 10 points for that S3 template isn't really worth it either.

[tomjoad]

I actually greatly prefer the "should never be" plasma gun to its pistol brother. The increase in either range or shots is such a huge bonus, that I don't particularly care that it precludes a charge.

 

There are two reasons for this. Firstly, the killing power you get for 15 points better be a lot. That 24" range makes a huge difference; more than one would expect. The second reason follows from that: I'd rather double tap with a plasma gun than charge with some crummy assault marines. When I MUST charge, that marine can always fire his bolt pistol, but that's a last ditch option.

 

If the pistol was a bit cheaper I'd be on board. If ASMs were better in combat I'd be on board. As things stand, the gun is superior.

[IK Viper]

Melta Guns are better in every way then a plasma pistol, it kills AV targets like crazy, is S8 so gets ID vs Tough 4, and is an assault weapon, and is 5 points cheaper.  I personally think that you come out better using your points to put Melta in the squad then udgrading your Sgt.  I end up putting a power weapon on the Sgt. and leaving it well enough alone,  putting a Plasma Pistol and a Power Weapon on the Sgt. is making him way to expensive for a 1 wound PA guy that most of the time will get sent out to Challenge an enemy IC that will cream him 85% of the time. 

 

Plasma Pistols are the same points as a Power Weapon, remember that this is still an ASSAULT Squad we are talking about here, so they are going to be charging most of the time if they get that close to the enemy to fire the pistol.  The pistol gives you one shot where the PW can be used in both player turns and will be gettin 3-4 swing / turn. seams pretty straight forward to me. 

 

I will say this, I think there is merrit in running a backpackless Assautl Squad with 2 Plasma Rifles in a discount Rhino,  I usually combat squad and put 5 guys in a Raven to score late game, then I have 2 Plasma Rifles in a Rhino that can score and have an AV 11 hull protecting them from Hell Dakeage...  BTW you are getting 2 Plasma Rifles out the fire points if you want it...  with your move and shoot thats 4 shots S7 AP2 at anything within 18 inches and your not out in the open to get BBQ'ed

 

That is probably your best option short of a Honour Guard to get plasma on the board,  and it scores :-) 

 

Back to the original topic, I just fear that if you kit out your Sgt. with a plas. pistol you are confusing the roles of the squad and spending alot of points to make a squad Meh.. at killing horde and elite infantry.  IMHO you pick one build and go with it. ie. double Melta or double flamer and a power weapon, since the sgt. shooting options are more expensive and not as effective as their sqaud special weapon equivilants why waste your point here? 

[Black_Sky]

Plasma Pistol vs meltagun.

 

Pistol give 1 str 4 attack in close combat.

 

Ranged stats are:

10 vs 15 points in favour for the meltagun

Same range

Meltagun +1 str

Meltagun ap 1

Meltagun has melta vs vehicles.

plasma pistol has gets hot.

 

Whenever possible, pick the meltagun over the plasma pistol, unless you want a flamer for crowd control or a plasma for ranged high str low ap.

[Hrimfar]

Although it might not be the best from a competetive perspecitve, I've also thought about decking out a veteran sergeant with twin plasmapistols, just for the awesomness of the idea! I would not use plasmapustols with regular assaultmarines though, since the meltagun does almost everything better (barring the +1 attack for pistol/ccw) and is cheaper!

[Remmy]

The meltagun is the superior choice vs. the plasma pistol in almost every way. Plasma pistols should be priced cheaper than the meltagun to make it even worth looking at.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

An ASM Sarge with dual PP... I mean it is not the most horrifying way to spend 30pts... but the term "diminishing returns" certainly comes to mind. As any other above have already argued, the MG is far far superior to the PP on a standard ASM. The only time you should ever ever ever consider a PP is on a Sergeant when you've already taken max-MG for the Unit.

 

With a PP, you get to shoot it probably once in a game, twice if you're lucky (shocking if there's ever three chances to shoot it).  The same argument could be made with a MG-- but the Target Menu for a MG is far greater than a PP, plus cheaper so they get a bonus to viability. So for 15pts you get something that will miss 33% of the time (and half of that is worse than just a miss).

 

Now, in actual defense for 'expensive' wargear-- for me, it is never a question of "then it is a 50pt model with 1 wound" because that is not how Units work, you cannot buy just that one model. You buy the Unit and you have to examine the holistic cost for the whole unit, then examine what that wargear does to expand the Unit's capabilities.  But you must also analyze if those capabilities are compatible with that Unit's mission role.

 

Example:

• ASM Squad with 10 men is 190pts
  • Primary Mission Role is Resilent+Mobile Scoring
  • Secondary Role is Close Quarter Engagement (shooting and/or melee)
  • Primary Targets: Light Infantry, Fast Infantry, Light Vehicles
  • Secondary Targets: Medium Infantry
• ASM Squad with 10 men+2 MG is 210pts
  • Primary Mission Role is Resilent+Mobile Scoring or Deep-target Attack (DoA Melta on Heavy Vehicles)
  • Secondary Role is Close Quarter Engagement
  • Primary Targets: Light Infantry, Fast Infantry, Light Vehicles, Heavy Vehicles
  • Secondary Targets: Medium Infantry, Heavy Infantry, Weakened Monstrous Creatures

So you can see in the second bullet, 20pts (10.5% increase of base cost) expanded the Unit's primary role and increased its target sets from 6 roles/targets to 10 roles/targets (66% increase).

• ASM Squad with 10 men+2 MG+PW is 225pts
  • Primary Mission Role is Resilent+Mobile Scoring
  • Secondary Role is Close Quarter Engagement and/or Deep-target Attack
  • Primary Targets: Light Infantry, Fast Infantry, Light Vehicles, Heavy Vehicles, Medium Infantry
  • Secondary Targets: Heavy Infantry, Weakened Monstrous Creatures

+35pts (18.4% base increase) is the same 10 roles/targets as the 2nd example except upgrades Medium Infantry into a Primary Target but drops the DoA attack into a Secondary Role. This means the PW upgrade is only necessary if you absolutely know you will be using them to attack Medium Infantry.

• ASM Squad with 10 men+2 MG+2PP is 240pts
  • Primary Mission Role is Resilent+Mobile Scoring
  • Secondary Role is Close Quarter Engagement and/or Deep-target Attack
  • Primary Targets: Heavy Infantry, Monstrous Creatures, Fast Infantry, Light Vehicles, Medium Infantry
  • Secondary Targets: Light Infantry, Heavy Vehicles

+50pts (26.3% base increase) adds no new roles but upgrades many Targets to Primary-- but correspondingly downgrades Light Infantry and Heavy Vehicles into Secondary Targets. The problem with this inversion of Target Sets is problematic for two reasons however:

1. Those target sets are incompatible with the Primary Role of the Unit (ie the Enemy's Primary Role of Heavy Infantry and MC is usually to destroy Scorers)
2. Other Units available can attack those Target Sets more effectively and for lower cost than ASM.

[walpurgisnacht]

I couldn't agree more with C.A.G. ASM have very defined roles in 6th ed. Gone are the red marines who have ork mentality. Now we have a highly mobile unit with target priority because they score. Yes, the meta has changed to shooting, but your foe cannot shoot your units in cc. The key is surviving cc during your turn and then winning during their assault phase, so this scenario can be repeated. Are plasma pistols worth the investment in a squad that will either be in combat or holding an objective? #Rhetorical :-)

[JamesI]

I can't see a single reason to take a plasma pistol over a meltagun.  The +1 attack isn't worth the points.

 

Now a plasma pistol on a sergeant might be worth it, but I'd usually keep him cheaper.

[Morticon]

I think the OPs initial points are excellent reasons for taking a PP on a sarge, and have forced me to re-look at the PP with a character.  As has been noted in-thread though, there's no way id ever choose a PP over a melta gun, unless the PP was 5 points  - and even then id have a tough time considering it. 

[IK Viper]

If the Plas. Pistol was 10 points I would consider it, maybe, at 5 points to me it becomes and auto include...  as it stands it to expensive, I know this is a wish list but I would really like Plasma Pistols to be like 7.5 pts 

Inf. Pistols 10 pts 

Hand Flamers 5 pts

 

in the next BA codex, I think this would encourage a variaty of load outs on the sgt. as it stands no one is going to spend the points on it unless they just like the way it looks.  Hand Flamers could be really cool btw, to bad a S3 template is not worth 10 pts unless you know your fighting IG

[Xenith]

Possibly going to stick one on a naked challenge chump sergeant for that occasion when he rolls a 6 to hit.

[Hrimfar]

If the Plas. Pistol was 10 points I would consider it, maybe, at 5 points to me it becomes and auto include...  as it stands it to expensive, I know this is a wish list but I would really like Plasma Pistols to be like 7.5 pts 

Inf. Pistols 10 pts 

Hand Flamers 5 pts

 

in the next BA codex, I think this would encourage a variaty of load outs on the sgt. as it stands no one is going to spend the points on it unless they just like the way it looks.  Hand Flamers could be really cool btw, to bad a S3 template is not worth 10 pts unless you know your fighting IG

 

Actually the hand flamer can be really good if taken together with 2 regular flamers in the squad. It's a lot of autohits before the unit charges the enemy and is especially good if your foe is located inside ruins (instead of a 4+ coversave or better, they only get armor). Although s3 is really weak, it's enough to get at least a few wounds of a decent template placement.

 

Not very good wen facing MEQ though, but for specialized anti-infantry/hoard it can really shine. At least I've had good use of them when facing IG, Orks and Daemons. But then, I don't often run very competetive lists or play in competetive games for that matter.

[Xenith]

 

Actually the hand flamer can be really good if taken together with 2 regular flamers in the squad. It's a lot of autohits before the unit charges the enemy

 

That's the exact reason not to take them, isnt it? Now with random charge ranges, killing one or two of the opposing nearest models can screw you over when charging, every inch is sacred!

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Xenith, on 25 Mar 2013 - 12:55, said:

That's the exact reason not to take them, isnt it? Now with random charge ranges, killing one or two of the opposing nearest models can screw you over when charging, every inch is sacred!

Complete truth. I am a firm believer in the fact that Random Charge Length has caused Shooting-Lists Domination of 6th Edition more than any other single factor. I don't want anyone to say "oh but what about those 10" charges??" because the fact is they do not in any way, shape or form make up for even a single failed 4" charge. Reliability is a key concept towards competitiveness.

 

Anyways back on topic--- I will have to say, the thread has certainly made reexamine the PP, something I've simply written off for a long time. However, I feel I've reached the same conclusion as I have in the past: 15pts is just the wrong price, considering usually I want my ASM staying far away from things that a plasma pistol wants to get close to. I can't in good conscience pay 15pts for a 'contingency' piece of wargear. The fact that Prescience casting exists now was a big portion of my internal reexamination in favor of PPs... but then I remembered the fact that usually you only get 1 or 2 shots with a PP per game, whereas a PowerAxe or LC will get multiple swings and multiple attempts to kill things over the course of a game.

[JamesI]

 

 

Actually the hand flamer can be really good if taken together with 2 regular flamers in the squad. It's a lot of autohits before the unit charges the enemy

 

That's the exact reason not to take them, isnt it? Now with random charge ranges, killing one or two of the opposing nearest models can screw you over when charging, every inch is sacred!

In my armies, I expect my flamers to be basically used for hurting the enemy before they charge me with the auto overwatch hits rather than thin them out before the charge.

[Captain Death Crunch]

I agree with others. Melta > plasma. And I always take 2 of the same (melta or flamers) rather than one of each. Trying to be too well-balanced will make your squad not good at anything. 2 flamers for anti-light infantry, 2 melta for transport popping, and assault the traitors/xenos who crawl out of the burning wreckage with a Sgt. with a power weapon (or fist).

[Jolemai]

Thank you all for your replies. So far, there have been quite a varied set of replies with many appearing to be open to the suggestion of trying something different. Rather than answering individually I will break my reply down into two sections:

 

On the Marines

 

Whilst there is always a niche for the Flamer, I will do a quick comparison vs the Melta Gun;

 

Against troops both weapons have the same range meaning that they will fire the same amount of times during a game. Both hit on the same score, both wound T5 and below on the same score, both deny armour saves to everything (or make Terminators use their 5++). However, at this range you are either going to charge or be charged and the Plasma Pistol grants you an extra attack in combat. In the fifth edition losing an extra attack did not matter as we went first with I5 on the charge but in the sixth edition we need every advantage we can get in combat and with basic attacks what matters is weight of numbers.

 

At the end of the day you need to decide if +1A (or +2A) is worth the extra five (or ten) points to your squad of RAS.

 

Yes, against vehicles the Meltagun is better but the sixth edition (arguably) sees a decrease in vehicles and an increase in troops. Attack Bikes, our tanks and Storm Ravens are still (generally) kitted out for tank hunting so what are they doing if your RAS needs to be popping tanks? Also your RAS are not hammers so they shouldn't be taking on heavy mech, etc head on and with their mobility you should be trying to expose their side/back armour - a move which still makes having the Plasma Pistol suitable.

 

By all means still take a squad with a Melta Gun or two, but try taking Plasma Pistols on the, or one of the, other squads. This edition does not have to be "Go Melta or go home".

 

On the Sergeant

 

While I will concede that a Gunsliging Sergeant with two Plasma Pistols is a bad idea for the RAS, I still firmly stand behind him having one instead of his Bolt Pistol. Placed in the type of squad I have advocated above, this becomes three Plasma Pistol shots (one of which can be allocated on a 6+) and that can't be sniffed at. Granted that this makes the upgrades for the Sergeant come to 30 points (factoring in the Power Weapon) and that may be a little steep for some, but it may be worth it on squads comprising of ten models or less.

 

I still use a RAS Squad of eight Marines in a Rhino (with a Librarian and Priest/Corbulo). Here my Plasma Pistol wielding Sergeant is never wasted and ensures I get at least two decent ranged attacks coming from that Squad.

[Xenith]

5 man assault squad, rhino, plasma, serge with 2 plasma pistols.

 

4 plasma shots at 12" from the top hatch.

[Brother Maikel]

By replacing a meltagun with a plasma pistol you trade

* 5 points

* instant death for T4 models

* better chance to wound T6+ models

* ability to affect AV14

* overall effectiveness against any vehicle

* immunity to Gets Hot

For

* one regular cc attack

 

One cc attack results in an extra 0.083 unsaved wounds vs MEQ per assault phase.

The benefit in versatility alone is worth that trade, much less the 5 point savings.

 

If sergeants could take meltaguns over infernus/plasma pistols then mine would.

[Jolemai]

What armies do you normally face?

 

By replacing a meltagun with a plasma pistol you trade
* 5 points
* instant death for T4 models Do you face Paladins often? Do your Melta Gun shoot Captains, etc often?
* better chance to wound T6+ models Do you face these often? if so, what is the rest of your force doing instead of shooting these MCs?
* ability to affect AV14 Do you face these often? If so, what is the rest of your force doing with their AT weaponry?
* overall effectiveness against any vehicle Only in 6 inches, which again can be offset by a flank attack. Also, what is the rest of your force doing with their AT weaponry?
* immunity to Gets Hot This can be mitigated by our Priests and by Divination.
For
* one regular cc attack

One cc attack results in an extra 0.083 unsaved wounds vs MEQ per assault phase. Factor in Divination and this gets higher, no?
The benefit in versatility alone is worth that trade, much less the 5 point savings.

If sergeants could take meltaguns over infernus/plasma pistols then mine would. I guess that would be nice with a Lightning Claw or a Power Fist :)

 

Obviously it will depend on your local meta, but I still don't see the need to flood our RAS with Melta Guns in this edition. I guess I am in the small minority then.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

* 5 points

* instant death for T4 models Do you face Paladins often? Do your Melta Gun shoot Captains, etc often?

* better chance to wound T6+ models Do you face these often? if so, what is the rest of your force doing instead of shooting these MCs?

* ability to affect AV14 Do you face these often? If so, what is the rest of your force doing with their AT weaponry?

* overall effectiveness against any vehicle Only in 6 inches, which again can be offset by a flank attack. Also, what is the rest of your force doing with their AT weaponry?

* immunity to Gets Hot This can be mitigated by our Priests and by Divination.

For

* one regular cc attack

 

One cc attack results in an extra 0.083 unsaved wounds vs MEQ per assault phase. Factor in Divination and this gets higher, no?

The benefit in versatility alone is worth that trade, much less the 5 point savings.

• ID on T4: NidWarriors, Raveners, Shrikes, Nobz/MegaNobz, SlaaneshFiends, Bloodcrushers, Wraiths, Crisis/Broadside Suits. Non-exhaustive list. Also it is preventing Feel No Pain on T4, which is an even longer list. Just the FnP consideration itself makes the MG 33% better than PP
• Shooting at T6+ is fairly legit reasoning-- usually ASM are trying to avoid things with T6. I think this one is a fair point Jolemai. But when the contigency arises, the MG is better for cheaper.
• AV14? Try AV12. A MG is twice more effective than a PP at placing a Penetrating hit onto AV12 at 12", and twice as effective to Explode it. You cannot count on PP to save you against a Dreadnought/Soulgrinder/etc melee Walker. Also, PP cannot reliably pop a transport for charging the contents. If you face mech, your other antitank is likely to be overtasked so redundancy is not out of the question in this case.
• Not just 6", the MG dominates the PP in antitank effectiveness over the whole 12". +1 Str and +1 AP is a big deal.
• Agree the Gets Hot is a minor consideration, but its still there. Paying 5pts to be worse.
• With Prescience, 1 MEQ attack kills 0.125 MEQ. Since this is only 1 attack, I think that is a direct translation to 13% chance. Add Furious Charge and it goes to 17% chance to kill a MEQ.

If the PP was 10 and the MG was 15, then this would be a different discussion-- but frankly, the MG still handily beats the PP in every scenario I can think of. As it is, threads like this are important because they "keep us honest" in the fact that sometimes we have to defend our reasoning rather than just going with the flow.

[knife&fork]

Plasma pistol vs Infernus pistol would be a more interesting discussion. Not that there's many time you'd use either of them...