Heldrakes with Autocannons...maybe?

[himkano]

I am having a really hard time putting together a good chaos list.  I
think that at least part of it is because I might be doing it wrong with
the Heldrake.  I have been tabled by 1 Heldrake, and it may have skewed
my perception, and after facing it a few times, and running one a few
times, I still think my perception is skewed from that one time I got
slaughtered.



My most recent games showed me that positioning further back can stop
the vector strike, and your opponent bringing his air on to the opposite
side of the board from the rest of his army means you can vector strike
is air OR flame his guys.



I think it is obvious by now that I am assuming that one is always
taking the Baleflamer with a drake, because it is just too awesome not
to.  I believe that this is why I am having so much trouble coming up
with a list that I like, I am assuming that the Heldrake has to have a
baleflamer to be worth the points, so I am taking the Heldrake as my
anti-infantry, and then I am spending too many points trying to cover
anti-air.  The issue is that Chaos has ALOT of was to kill stuff on the
ground, but nothing nearly as efficient as the Heldrake for killing
things in the air, and trying to force something else into the anti-air
role is leaving me unhappy, because I end up with a list that doesn't
have enough anti-troop OR anti-air.



So I am going to try to make some more lists, with auto-cannons on the
drakes.  If I take 3, then maybe the baleflamer on one, but I am
starting to think that the baleflamer is a trap.  It looks great on
paper, and works very well the first time you enemy faces it, but it is
not the unstoppable killing machine that you want it to be...

 

Thoughts?  Is there a better (more reliable) air defense that is cheaper (or at least close), for an army that can expect to face 2-5 flyers per game?

[Brother Ambroz]

I think a hadesdrake definitely has potential, especially with the new turret mounted rules. One thing that might be pretty nice too is bringing a LoC or Herald ally along with the drake and having him cast prescience on the drake, this along with the daemonforge rule would make him a very reliable anti-air killer I think.

[minionboy]

Like Tanith said, with a Prescience Herald, it might not be bad, but the problem is you're spending even more points and losing a lovely Baleflamer in the process.  Unless you're really bent on taking Daemon Allies, I'd try to get anti-air elsewhere.

[Slayer le Boucher]

I use a very straitghforward way to deal with anti-air of my foes, Khorne BIkers+Lord, enough firepower and CC Strength to open anti-air vehicles, or annihilate anti-air troops.

 

By the time they come in Shooting/CC range in turn 2; they can provide support to your Heldrake.

 

An Heldrake can show is best potential with a baleflamer, but a Hades cannon is not bad, its just a little bit gimped because of the drakes BS3 though.

[the jeske]

there are no other flyers other then a bale drake that make our troops[aka pms] and support units[aka bikes and oblits] die too fast. what I see wrong with your tactic is that your trying to do both anti air and anti ground at the same time. dont do that. kill him on the ground and ignore the flyers , chaos [as in csm without ally] can not build a good list which does good anti air[we can make a bad list which is good against flyers , but I doubt you want that].

 

the dakka gun on a drake wont help you much by the way . no twin, link bs 3 is not good enough to kill those av12 flyers.

[himkano]

there are no other flyers other then a bale drake that make our troops[aka pms] and support units[aka bikes and oblits] die too fast. what I see wrong with your tactic is that your trying to do both anti air and anti ground at the same time. dont do that. kill him on the ground and ignore the flyers , chaos [as in csm without ally] can not build a good list which does good anti air[we can make a bad list which is good against flyers , but I doubt you want that].

 

the dakka gun on a drake wont help you much by the way . no twin, link bs 3 is not good enough to kill those av12 flyers.

Can we ignore them though - what if they are bringing dragons too?

 

I do not disagree with you - I am trying to do both at once, and I think you are right that it is not possible, but it is hard to ignore 2 death rays, 2-3 heldrakes, or 6-9 vendettas (all of which I see on a regular basis) - even if I go after the ground forces hard, I have not yet been able to kill them before my own ground forces are crippled.

 

Maybe it is my ground killing tactics that is the problem (and the fact that I play in two very different metas, and am trying to make an all comer lost for both, maybe I should just have two lists)

[minigun762]

I see value in a Hadesdrake if you already have 1-2 Baledrakes but you want an extra flyer.

 

It's uncommon that you'll have 3 good targets for templates each turn, so giving yourself an option to go after other flyers or vehicles seems worthwhile.

[Sception]

There's a number of baleflamers beyond which you already pretty much autowin against marine infantry, and probably infantry in general.  Unless you frequently run up against enemies with tons of anti-air, two baledrakes is probably enough, and if you have points left over you could probably do worse than a hadesdrake with that third slot.

 

Still the lesser of the two options by a wide margin, imo, as I wouldn't even consider a hadesdrake unless I was already running two baledrakes, and I typically don't have points left over for a third drake after two baledrakes anyway, and usually want the third fast slot for an HQ escort.  Maybe in a Huron list?  idk

[the jeske]

Can we ignore them though - what if they are bringing dragons too?

the one with better fnp rolls , who gets his drakes in second wins.

[Sception]

I don't know about whether order of arrival matters that much.  Drake vector strikes are pretty lousy at taking down other drakes.

[the jeske]

not saying they arent , but better to make them then to recive them .

[derpasaurus]

Baledrake + Aegis Defense Line = bases covered.
People tend to call cheese one ONE thing that is all ap3 ignores cover, let alone 3. 
ADL gives you cover and any of the guns you need, and avoids spam.

Having said that, I can see potential for a Hades Drake doing some damage to fliers, with them becoming more than valks/stormravens and other drakes.

Then again, I'm not coming from a WAAC or tournament play perspective at all. I'm thinking from what will be a good fun game for everyone. 

[TheDevourer]

Have been thinking along the same lines on whether or not the hades might be worth it. But the combination of Vector Strikes, Icarus and Havocs has usually been enough for me to gain air superiority, if needed. I usually tend to ignore enemy fliers. But in our tournie meta i´ve yet to see any vendetta/valk spam lists in that kind of proportion. 2-3 maybe, but never had to play against much more.