Rotor cannons-any good?

[BTIitiate]

Well, FW just posted these amazing looking guns on their website, and I know I may not get an answer, but what exactly do they do. I've been planning a legion list without access to Betrayal (probably going to use Chaos marines codex, big squads not as big price tag), but would like to have an idea of what these do in case I decide on the actual legion list

 

Thanks

[W0lfie]

Rotor guns aren't that great; they are salvo 3/4 with a very underwhelming strength characteristic, as well as poor ap.  They're also not cheap points wise.  Maybe taking them for flavour could work, but not for competitive games.

 

I won't post exact rules as Games Workshop owns the copyright.

[BTIitiate]

Thanks. So my understanding is that they're worse than bolters strength/AP wise, but have more shots, though with the salvo rule and of course (IMO) a cool factor of space marines walking around with miniguns?

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Rotor guns aren't that great; they are salvo 3/4 with a very underwhelming strength characteristic, as well as poor ap.  They're also not cheap points wise.  Maybe taking them for flavour could work, but not for competitive games.

 

I won't post exact rules as Games Workshop owns the copyright.

 

Despite the usual dire warnings at the front end of their publications, quoting isolated pieces of text with a source reference doesn't breach copyright under English law, which is what GW publish under.

 

It's only such things as scanning in parts of a publication and making it available to third parties that will get you into trouble.

[Tamwulf]

Ok- let's see if I can be tricky.

 

Rotor Cannons have the same strength as a Shotgun, the AP of a Space Marine Sniper Rifle, Salvo 3/4 (that shouldn't break any rules I think...), and have the same range as Sternguard Kraken Bolts.

 

These were/are the precursors to Assault Cannons. As such, they are just a little bit worse then 40K Assault Cannons. However, when you look at some of the special abilities the Legion armies have, this weapon suddenly doesn't look that bad.

[Onisuzume]

Their biggest problem is that their direct competition is the Volkite Caliver.

Which means that for the same points, you can have a much higher strength weapon.

[W0lfie]

Ok- let's see if I can be tricky.

 

These were/are the precursors to Assault Cannons. As such, they are just A LOT  worse then 40K Assault Cannons. However, when you look at some of the special abilities the Legion armies have, this weapon suddenly doesn't look that bad.

Sorry, saw something I needed to fix ;)

[Tamwulf]

 

Ok- let's see if I can be tricky.

These were/are the precursors to Assault Cannons. As such, they are just A LOT  worse then 40K Assault Cannons. However, when you look at some of the special abilities the Legion armies have, this weapon suddenly doesn't look that bad.

Sorry, saw something I needed to fix ;)

You should be sorry, and don't ever change a quote to make your own point. It's the highest form of plagiarism and automatically discredits anything you have to say or a point you are trying to make.

 

If you want people to take you seriously, then make a statement, back it up with facts, and use a well thought out, logical sequence of arguments.

 

All you've done is shown how lazy and ignorant you are on this topic.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Ok- let's see if I can be tricky.

These were/are the precursors to Assault Cannons. As such, they are just A LOT worse then 40K Assault Cannons. However, when you look at some of the special abilities the Legion armies have, this weapon suddenly doesn't look that bad.

Sorry, saw something I needed to fix

You should be sorry, and don't ever change a quote to make your own point. It's the highest form of plagiarism and automatically discredits anything you have to say or a point you are trying to make.

If you want people to take you seriously, then make a statement, back it up with facts, and use a well thought out, logical sequence of arguments.

All you've done is shown how lazy and ignorant you are on this topic.

Maybe you're just having a bad day as I think W0lfie had made it clear that it was a light hearted amendment rather than an attempt to mislead - note the use of capitals and a smiley.

Hope everything is okay your end

[Reasonable Commissar]

For marines I dont really rate them compared to other options they have available. They might be better for Mechanicus and Imperial Army units depending on their options.

[Raven Angel]

Considering an Assault Cannon is S6 I think they should have been S4 or S5, not S3. Low AP can be fixed with variant ammo but crappy muzzle velocity is forever. 

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Considering an Assault Cannon is S6 I think they should have been S4 or S5, not S3. Low AP can be fixed with variant ammo but crappy muzzle velocity is forever. 

Drawing on my poor memory of military technology classes, I recall muzzle velocity being down to barrel length and propellant. So might this also have been fixed with better ammo? Still, S4 or 5 would have been nice.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

Since it is S3, I would have hoped for something like Heavy 8.  If it is going to be a pea shooter, it may as well shoot a lot of peas.  :)

[Raven Angel]

 

Considering an Assault Cannon is S6 I think they should have been S4 or S5, not S3. Low AP can be fixed with variant ammo but crappy muzzle velocity is forever. 

Drawing on my poor memory of military technology classes, I recall muzzle velocity being down to barrel length and propellant. So might this also have been fixed with better ammo? Still, S4 or 5 would have been nice.

 

Owing to the small caliber of the rounds this is unlikely to be possible. The weapon is described as a heavy stuber variant so we are probably talking in the 7.62 range round. Too small for an explosive tip of any meaningful power. Various materials can be used to improve the AP value of such rounds but being that small limits the knockdown power you can impart without really redesigning the gun to take a different cartridge.

[depthcharge12]

Current mini guns and such have 5 mm bullets if iirc which is obviously smaller than 5.56 mm or .223 round if youre American like me ;)

 

5 mm is a tiny bullet that doesn't have much stopping power, but is irrelevant when you can shoot 200 rounds a second. Some larger chain guns fire incendiary rounds sometimes or explosive tip

[Jim AMM realgenius]

5 mm is a tiny bullet that doesn't have much stopping power, but is irrelevant when you can shoot 200 rounds a second.

I'd have been happy if it was S3 Heavy 200 :)

[depthcharge12]

^this times a million ;)

 

But game balance is a weird thing and I think it would've been more fluffy and sensible if each was salvo 6/10 with its current profile

 

And/or maybe a reduction or ignoring cover saves because the volume of fire from that bad boy would shred anything in front of the target. Please watch "Futureweapons" and watch the ex SEAL guy go hog wild thru targets

 

Here would be my preferred profile:

 

10 pts per model

 

Range 30" S3 AP5 rending, overheat (salvo 6/10)

 

Iirc there was a rule for neck beards back in the day for assault cannons where if you rolled more than 2 1s on to hit then the gun overheated and you couldn't shoot it next turn

[Reasonable Commissar]

Roll 3 sustained fire dice and if they all roll a jam it blows up.

[drgabe]

I actually like the idea of this gun a lot (from a fluff standpoint). It was great against xenos and non-power armored humans. Which is exactly what the Marines of the Crusade were fighting the majority of the time. At the time of the Betrayal there just aren't going to be any weapons with great stopping power when going up against other marines. 

 

But like Onisuzume said, they look ok until you consider the Volkite weapons...

 

Still, I would consider these for the torrent of fire in larger for fun games. The models themselves just look awesome!

[Raven Angel]

^this times a million

But game balance is a weird thing and I think it would've been more fluffy and sensible if each was salvo 6/10 with its current profile

And/or maybe a reduction or ignoring cover saves because the volume of fire from that bad boy would shred anything in front of the target. Please watch "Futureweapons" and watch the ex SEAL guy go hog wild thru targets

Here would be my preferred profile:

10 pts per model

Range 30" S3 AP5 rending, overheat (salvo 6/10)

Iirc there was a rule for neck beards back in the day for assault cannons where if you rolled more than 2 1s on to hit then the gun overheated and you couldn't shoot it next turn

Drop the overheat has the whole point behind a Gatling gun is to improve heat dissipation while increasing the ROF beyond what single barrel can handle.

[spu00sed]

I have t admit that I don't see the point of the rotary cannon, or the flamer, for support weapon squads

 

If you want to take out light infantry use bolters and fury of the legion for extra kicks.

 

For me it is plasma all the way, help deal with heavy infantry, which bolters struggle with.

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

I have t admit that I don't see the point of the rotary cannon, or the flamer, for support weapon squads

If you want to take out light infantry use bolters and fury of the legion for extra kicks.

For me it is plasma all the way, help deal with heavy infantry, which bolters struggle with.

If you're willing to pay the points then they are nasty

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Current mini guns and such have 5 mm bullets if iirc which is obviously smaller than 5.56 mm or .223 round if youre American like me

5 mm is a tiny bullet that doesn't have much stopping power, but is irrelevant when you can shoot 200 rounds a second. Some larger chain guns fire incendiary rounds sometimes or explosive tip

You remember incorrectly. The GE-manufactured M134 Mini-Gun is chambered at 7.62x51mm, or .308, which is the same round used in classic battle rifles like the M1 Garand and M14. It is anything but small, but in 40K terms would be placed firmly in the "stubber" category, so S3 isn't actually a bad comparison.

[Jim AMM realgenius]

I think S3 is appropriate, I wish they just gave it more shots.  When compared to guns of its era (Volkite weapons), you have to wonder why anyone would use it.  Here's a huge, unwieldy thing that is half the strength and only twice the rate of fire compared to a Volkite Caliver with the same range, less AP and no cool special rule.

[depthcharge12]

7.62 is quite a large round and a nice one at that and has better penetration and stopping power than 5.56. I could see it as more of ap 4 though. The metal/ceramic plates of modern body armor are supposed to stop 7.62 but are only to a degree successful. Regardless of volume of fire from the minigun the bullets can penetrate 2 in of steel and can destroy light vehicles (maybe not able to punch engine blocks like a .50 BMG or .338 Lapua).

 

With that reasoning it should be S4 ish. Standard autoguns shoot around 5.56 in comparability and should be S3. With S4 or rending it should be able to glance rhino armor.

 

Though aren't 40k bolters .998 caliber? The HHB says they're .60 or .70 cal.

 

BTW in a game sense the rotor cannons are useless compared to volkites and might be only useful against 'nids (Murder anyone?) but if you want to run them it is your prerogative and you might roll luckier than myself ;)