multiple HQ's with TWC units

[IronFather84]

Yeah it's an all or nothing tactic. Though if you add Fenrisian wolves to your HQ choice and don't sack them to take wounds away from your HQ then you can use them to go up on the second floor to drag units down. Yeah they are going to go at I1 and most likely die but then said unit is locked into combat for the duration and will most likely die. So the only way they can get away is to have a 3 story building which in most cases isn't probable. And unless you are doing the Canis list you should have some foot troops somewhere.

[Forté]

Or, you just shoot targets which your Twolves may struggle to get to with your other units. Freeing up you big expensive eating machines to go and tear the heart out of your opponents army. All about backup plans really.

[Wulfebane]

Assault the building.

[IronFather84]

Ruins are not buildings and not subject to being assaulted unfortunately

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

 

 

Valarien i assumed that they are allowed to take them because it's the Iron Priest job to maintain the wolves themselves.

Yeah, maybe that's it. That certainly is as good of an explanation as any. I've always thought it odd, however, that Iron Priests would get them, since the Thunderwolf riders are an "elite" subgroup of the Wolf Guard ("thought to be an initiation ritual into the upper echelons of the Wolf Guard"). As we know, Iron Priest candidates come pretty much directly from young Fenrisian smiths (or even the sons of smiths), and would not have ever been a part of the Wolf Guard. The same goes for Rune Priests (usually a "son of the storm" would be identified early, and set on that path), or Wolf Priests (who are drawn almost exclusively from Long Fangs - with Ulrik th Slayer being the one exception who did, in face, come from the Wolf Guard).

 

Valerian

 

There are always exceptions to every rule though. Look are Arjack. I believe that he was an Iron Priest that as made into a Wolf Guard after taking on all the mini Kraken things. Iron Priest also act outside the normal structure of the army and are for all intenensive purposes an entity within theirselves. I at the end of the day it is going to come down to the Commander's preferance and the structure of the army will depend on orders. Or purhaps the iron priest of the Thunderwolf riding lords are required to prove themselves by taking a TW mount as well. It may be a bit of a leap but for instance when i was in the milittary our people that packed parachutes (as well as some other support personel in airborne unites) had to become airborn qualified and were required to maintain their jumps.

 

As for the original question i don't think that it's worth it to take two ICs in the same unit. I know that you want to have people that can take on challenges but i don't think that the benefit out weighs the cost. I run 2 units of TWC and 1 IC on TW with each. Each unit can have their own special weapon so even if the IC does get in a challenge you still have a marine that can hit the unit or what have you with his powerfist, thunder hammer, or what have you. Also since the HQ choices are IC you can always make them leave or join other units of TWC so if you thing that you are going to have trouble you can always bring your WGBL over to support your WL or to engage another unit all together.

 

This is not intended to 'bait' you or humiliate you but instead comes from a place of love. 

 

The phrase is "for all intents and purposes". 

[Grimtooth]

So I will throw a wrench in double TWM IC in a unit.

 

The Thunderwolf mount entry says that he can only join a unit of TWC or Fenrisian Wolves.  A unit of Fenrisian Wolves with an already existing IC with a TWM is not an eligible unit.

[Valerian]

This is not intended to 'bait' you or humiliate you but instead comes from a place of love.

 

The phrase is "for all intents and purposes".

Well done - I am going to have to try and remember to use this technique when correcting people. There is a guy at work who keeps typing "borrowing your guidance" in emails, and it is killing me.

 

V

[Forté]

So I will throw a wrench in double TWM IC in a unit.

 

The Thunderwolf mount entry says that he can only join a unit of TWC or Fenrisian Wolves. A unit of Fenrisian Wolves with an already existing IC with a TWM is not an eligible unit.

Trust you to throw that one in.

[dswanick]

So I will throw a wrench in double TWM IC in a unit.

 

The Thunderwolf mount entry says that he can only join a unit of TWC or Fenrisian Wolves.  A unit of Fenrisian Wolves with an already existing IC with a TWM is not an eligible unit.

So what is a unit of Fen.Wolves with an attached IC, then? A unit of Necron Pariahs?

[Grimtooth]

 

So I will throw a wrench in double TWM IC in a unit.

 

The Thunderwolf mount entry says that he can only join a unit of TWC or Fenrisian Wolves.  A unit of Fenrisian Wolves with an already existing IC with a TWM is not an eligible unit.

So what is a unit of Fen.Wolves with an attached IC, then? A unit of Necron Pariahs?

 

It is exactly that, a unit of Fenrisian Wolves with an attached IC.  Let's look at it this way;

 

Is a unit of Fenrisian Wolves with an attached IC the same unit as described in the Fenrisian Wolves unit description?  How about how it acts on the playing board?  Does a unit of Fenrisian Wolves with an attached IC able or unable to do things that a unit of Fenrisian Wolves is able or unable to do?

[Wulfebane]

Except it is still a unit, not an IC's retinue, so by RAW it is the unit the IC is joining, not the previous IC that is already attached. An IC joining or leaving a unit does not somehow magically convert the unit into something else, but rather enhance its capabilities like a piece of wargear.

[Grimtooth]

Except it is still a unit, not an IC's retinue, so by RAW it is the unit the IC is joining, not the previous IC that is already attached. An IC joining or leaving a unit does not somehow magically convert the unit into something else, but rather enhance its capabilities like a piece of wargear.

 I didn't mention anything about retinues at all.

 

1.  The TWM entry tells you what you are allowed to join, Fenrisian Wolves/TWC.

2.  Fenrisian Wolves and TWC are defined by their unit entries.

3.  Those unit entries do not include IC, mounted on TWM or not.

 

Do you believe by some weird mechanic, that an IC joining a unit of Fenrisian Wolves is also not joining the already attached IC?  How do you resolve assault?  How do you resolve movement?

[Wulfebane]

Your sentences are convoluted to me. Are you arguing against two TWLs joining 1 unit, because nowhere in the BRB does it say you cannot. Pg. 39 says ICs can join each other to make death units, and join other units by moving into coherency.

You're trying to claim (by my understanding) that an IC cannot join, for example, a Grey Hunter pack if it has an IC already attached b/c that somehow makes it a new unit "Grey Hunter pack with IC"

 

A Fen Wolf unit is and always will be a Fen Wolf unit. Adding or removing an IC won't change that. Upon purchase of the unit, nothing can be done to it to make it otherwise. So.. should two ICs be deployed within coherency of that unit, they both qualify as being attached because the unit is still a Fen Wolf unit, not a "Fen Wolf unit with IC"

 

Attacks and movement are resolved as any unit with mixed stats.

 

I'm bowing out of this discussion for now b/c it's not worth it atm. I don't think we'll come to an agreement, and no one else seems to be around to support either claim and I'd rather not get into a heated debate over it.

[IronFather84]

Assaults are resolved normally as is movement. They can only go as fast at the slowest model. If one model, in this case the IC, has frag grenades then the unit is treated as having frag grenades. The unit how ever it is comprised will still be limited to the normal restrictions, will still go at appropriate initative and things of that nature. The only times you actually start seeing unit types changing is in the instances of like wolf guard spitting up and joining other squads becase they are no longer a wolf guard squad the are an attachment. ICs don't worry about that. IC joining a unit is automated based off of proximity to other units at the end of the movement phase. ICs don't change the unit type because they can come and go as they please throughout the game by leaving and rejoining.

[eyeslikethunder]

I haveto agree with wulfbane and dswanick I think you are seeing issues where none exist

Adding an IC to unit does not change it's type

[Grimtooth]

Your sentences are convoluted to me. Are you arguing against two TWLs joining 1 unit, because nowhere in the BRB does it say you cannot. Pg. 39 says ICs can join each other to make death units, and join other units by moving into coherency.

 

You're trying to claim (by my understanding) that an IC cannot join, for example, a Grey Hunter pack if it has an IC already attached b/c that somehow makes it a new unit "Grey Hunter pack with IC"

 

A Fen Wolf unit is and always will be a Fen Wolf unit. Adding or removing an IC won't change that. Upon purchase of the unit, nothing can be done to it to make it otherwise. So.. should two ICs be deployed within coherency of that unit, they both qualify as being attached because the unit is still a Fen Wolf unit, not a "Fen Wolf unit with IC"

 

Attacks and movement are resolved as any unit with mixed stats.

 

I'm bowing out of this discussion for now b/c it's not worth it atm. I don't think we'll come to an agreement, and no one else seems to be around to support either claim and I'd rather not get into a heated debate over it.

TWM mounted IC are not in the BRB, they are in the codex which has a specific restriction on those IC.  So bringing up a strawman that I am saying an IC cannot join a Grey Hunter pack with an already attached IC is either misdirection or not understanding on your part because the BRB entry for IC does not restrict what units IC can join.

 

The TWM rules entry has a specific restriction on what units can be joined by an IC mounted on one.  So in conjunction with the BRB entry, you have an additional rule specific to and IC mounted on a TWM.  Those two units, Fenrisian Wolves and TWC are clearly defined by their unit composition in their relevant unit entries.  Neither of them have an IC as part of their unit composition.  Because of this, you cannot even join a TWM mounted IC with another TWM mounted IC, as they are not either Fenrisian Wolves or TWC.

[TheSniperMonkey]

Adding an IC, whatever mount or war gear it has, to a unit doesn't change the base unit type though? For all intents and purposes both ICs are joining the same base unit the same time just before they deploy in the same way wolf guard pack leaders do. The rule about what a TW can and can't join was added so you couldn't have a TWL with bikes, GHs or termies etc, not screw with the number of ICs in one unit. If it is an allowable unit then they act as any other IC.

[Grimtooth]

Adding an IC, whatever mount or war gear it has, to a unit doesn't change the base unit type though? For all intents and purposes both ICs are joining the same base unit the same time just before they deploy in the same way wolf guard pack leaders do. The rule about what a TW can and can't join was added so you couldn't have a TWL with bikes, GHs or termies etc, not screw with the number of ICs in one unit. If it is an allowable unit then they act as any other IC.

You have an interesting opinion of why the rule states you can only join Fenrisian Wolves and TWC, except it has no argument in the fact that a unit of Fenrisian Wolves or TWC has a unit composition defined in the codex that DOES not include an IC, mounted on a TWM or otherwise.

 

By your own standard the rule is so a TWL cannot join a bike unit.  So if a WL on a bike joins a unit of Fenrisian Wolves and a TWL joins the same unit of Fenrisian Wolves you are good with that?  Seems like you are left in a situation that you just said was not supposed to be allowed as the TWL, the Fenrisian Wolves, and the WL on a bike are now one unit.  And what about when the Fenrisian Wolves are wiped out by shooting?  Suddenly you have a TWL with a WL on a bike, a unit you just mentioned was illegal.

 

Of course the slimy rules lawyer way around that I have seen is,

 

"Well the WL on the bike JOINED the TWL.  The TWL didn't JOIN the WL on a bike, so the rule has not been broken."

 

Yea, well good luck with that one.

[Wulfebane]

 

"Well the WL on the bike JOINED the TWL. The TWL didn't JOIN the WL on a bike, so the rule has not been broken."

 

No. Both ICs joined a unit of Fen Wolves, which is allowed. Once the wolves are wiped out, there's a rule (I forget where atm) that if they are not permitted to be in coherency with each other, then they must move out of coherency with each other as soon as possible in their next movement phase (or consolidate, etc).

 

The TWL did not join a Fen Wolf unit with WLBiker; the TWL joined a Fen Wolf unit. Period.

[Grimtooth]

 

 

"Well the WL on the bike JOINED the TWL. The TWL didn't JOIN the WL on a bike, so the rule has not been broken."

 

No. Both ICs joined a unit of Fen Wolves, which is allowed. Once the wolves are wiped out, there's a rule (I forget where atm) that if they are not permitted to be in coherency with each other, then they must move out of coherency with each other as soon as possible in their next movement phase (or consolidate, etc).

 

The TWL did not join a Fen Wolf unit with WLBiker; the TWL joined a Fen Wolf unit. Period.

Got any rules to back that up?  Because an IC is part of a unit he joins for all intents and purposes except close combat where he fights as his own unit.  That does not make him in this case, a Fenrisian Wolf or a TWC.

 

Can you tell me how the IC is not joining the IC when joining the Fenrisian Wolves?  Are you saying that the IC would have to remain within coherency of only the Fenrisian Wolves and not be allowed to move into coherency of the other IC without declaring that he is leaving and joining the IC?  Or would he just never be able to move within coherency of the other IC in the unit and permanently just float on the other side of the Fenrisian Wolf blob?

 

See, your idea that the IC joining the unit is somehow ONLY joining the Fenrisian Wolves without also joining the IC is flawed.

[eyeslikethunder]

Can you quote me a rule saying the unit type changes once an IC is added?

 

Are you saying that wolf guards can't join units at deployment if a IC is already in it. As they are limited to what units they join

[Grimtooth]

Can you quote me a rule saying the unit type changes once an IC is added?

 

Are you saying that wolf guards can't join units at deployment if a IC is already in it. As they are limited to what units they join

I am not saying that a unit type changes.  The Fenrisian Wolves are still beasts and the IC on a TWM is still cavalry.

 

The difference between wolf guard and TWM is that, the wolf guard becomes part of that unit.  We are told that if the unit is wiped out the wolf guard is still considered part of that unit.  He does not defer back to being an elite wolf guard.  We could play a timing game at deployment if you want, but the end result is that an IC is part of a unit that consists of that unit despite the joining of a wolf guard.  The same is not said when an IC on a TWM joins a unit of Fenrisian Wolves or attached TWC with an attached IC as the end result ends up breaking the rules entry for TWM.

[Blacksad]

Brother Ramses: if you want to follow only what is written you have a (albeit farfetched) point. However, that is not the way you operate, as proven by your refusal to admit that an IC on bike can join a unit of TWC as per the rules.

 

the only conclusion I can make is that you are trolling, and thus this is the last I will say on this subject.

[dswanick]

 

Can you quote me a rule saying the unit type changes once an IC is added?

 

Are you saying that wolf guards can't join units at deployment if a IC is already in it. As they are limited to what units they join

I am not saying that a unit type changes.  The Fenrisian Wolves are still beasts and the IC on a TWM is still cavalry.

 

The difference between wolf guard and TWM is that, the wolf guard becomes part of that unit.

As does an IC, while joined to a unit. A THW-mounted IC becomes a part of the TWC or Fen.Wolves for so long as he is joined to them, thus allowing further THW-mounted ICs to join also.

(BRB, pg.39, "While an Independent Character is a part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.)

So, while the Unit Composition may not include an entry for the "Independent Character", it might as well so long as he is joined. It is a conditional Unit Composition inclusion, unlike the Wolf Guard Pack Leader which is a permanent (for the duration of the game) Unit Composition modification.

[Grimtooth]

Eggs and flour are part of a cake, but that doesn't make eggs flour anymore then it makes flour eggs.

 

Your rules quote actually works against you as does your example of Wolf Guard because the IC becomes PART of the unit, not the unit itself. The IC will never be a Fenrisian Wolves unit, which is specifically what the TWM rules entry calls for.

 

It is interesting to see the shift of argument move from, "well the IC is not joining the other IC, he is just joining the Fenrisian Wolves" to "the IC and Fenrisian Wolves are a Fenrisian Wolves unit".

 

The question at the end of the day, nNo matter what hoops you want to try and jump through, is the IC on a TWM only joined with a Fenrisian Wolves or TWC unit? What you all propose is not true. The IC would be joined to the Fenrisian Wolves and the other IC, an illegal combination per the rules.