skarbrand vs the bloodthirster in the sixth edition

[Khaines wrath]

just wondering which is bettter in the sixt edition with the the monstrous creature rules and skarbrands benefit to hordes

i mean doesnt skarbrand only have 1+ int and attack while bt is flying can get wargear and is cheaper

and skarbrand with his hefty price tag will die easily since he isnt immune to instant death anymore and boneswords on warriors will hurt him and a horde will re-roll their hits and wound rolls of ones meaning tervigons with breeding will wear him down almost instantly

 

what do you guys think Bt or skarbrand

or take a different angle with the wont die kugath

[Cheex]

Personally, I think the lack of flight (and Fleet, for that matter) is a dealbreaker on Skarbrand. He's an absolutely amazing beast, but far too slow for my taste. Most of my regular opponents are more than capable of downing 4 T6 wounds in one turn if it's not flying.

 

His Rage and Hatred aura is nice, but since most Khorne units are only I4 anyway, it becomes just as much a bonus for your opponent as it is for yourself. I can definitely see him working well in a mixed army - Slaanesh units may benefit from it the most, ironically. Their higher Initiative means that they are more likely to benefit from those rules than other units in the codex.

 

But even so, I think he's far too expensive to use in a supporting role, and far too slow to use in a main assault role. Overall, I'm a little disappointed in how Skarbrand works in this codex.

[Khaines wrath]

Personally, I think the lack of flight (and Fleet, for that matter) is a dealbreaker on Skarbrand. He's an absolutely amazing beast, but far too slow for my taste. Most of my regular opponents are more than capable of downing 4 T6 wounds in one turn if it's not flying.

 

His Rage and Hatred aura is nice, but since most Khorne units are only I4 anyway, it becomes just as much a bonus for your opponent as it is for yourself. I can definitely see him working well in a mixed army - Slaanesh units may benefit from it the most, ironically. Their higher Initiative means that they are more likely to benefit from those rules than other units in the codex.

 

But even so, I think he's far too expensive to use in a supporting role, and far too slow to use in a main assault role. Overall, I'm a little disappointed in how Skarbrand works in this codex.

Definetly agree and especially since the only model who is immune to insta death in the codex is skull taker who still has two wounds

And isn't very important since to get him in a chariot makes him more expensive then a BT

[Captain Idaho]

Not having wings is a downer but he's quite cheap. Bloodthirsters are more expensive (what, no rewards?).

 

His lack of speed sucks, but at least he can deep strike.

 

Ultimately I'd like to know if anyone has used him? How did you get the best out of him?

 

And he doesn't have 4 wounds by the way.

 

Oh, and if you want to attack him with Bone Swords, be prepared to lose a lot of Tyranid Warriors!

[Khaines wrath]

Not having wings is a downer but he's quite cheap. Bloodthirsters are more expensive (what, no rewards?).

 

His lack of speed sucks, but at least he can deep strike.

 

Ultimately I'd like to know if anyone has used him? How did you get the best out of him?

 

And he doesn't have 4 wounds by the way.

 

Oh, and if you want to attack him with Bone Swords, be prepared to lose a lot of Tyranid Warriors!

 

he has 5 wounds but with all daemons having a 5+ inv now skarbrand will be killed by a devastator squad no problem because of a 5+ inv

yeah just found out his 25 pts cheaper than a BT with no upgrades yeah but if the tyranids have whips with that...

i want to do a themed khorne list with skarbrand and skulltaker w karanak

2x basic BL (20 squads)

2x cannon

1x soulgrinder

some hounds with karanak

some skullcrushers

 

what u guys think?

[Captain Idaho]

I wouldn't worry about Tyranids. Just wipe out the Lash Whip armed models with other models and let your big beasts go to town on everything else. ;)

 

Yes a 5+ is pretty bad survivability but at least we can saturate opponents.

 

Over all Skarbrand is like a GUO; slow and amongst the hardest to get to work. I want him to work but he is jusy sooooo slow.

[Cheex]

I meant to say 5 wounds - it's an old habit to just type 4! In any case, 5 T6 wounds isn't so difficult for any of my regular opponents, regardless of whether you consider him cheap or not.

 

Skulltaker can at least take a Juggernaut, and for his cost he isn't too bad.

[Iron Sage]

Not having wings is a downer but he's quite cheap. Bloodthirsters are more expensive (what, no rewards?).

 

His lack of speed sucks, but at least he can deep strike.

 

Ultimately I'd like to know if anyone has used him? How did you get the best out of him?

 

And he doesn't have 4 wounds by the way.

 

Oh, and if you want to attack him with Bone Swords, be prepared to lose a lot of Tyranid Warriors!

Agreed.

Skarbrand is amazing for the cost if you get him to work in your list. If not, he`s a MC that the opponent must shoot as a priority 1 target (which incidently also can be useful at times). But yeah, he`s speed is a downer, there is no denying that.

 

As for Tyranids, Skarbrand would absolutely butcher warriors, including the Swarmlord, in HtH. He is afraid of shooting and Grey Knights, not much else.

[L30n1d4s]

Anyone note that he causes ID with all of his attacks.... that is a ridiculously good deal, with no Psychic Test or any other requirement.... in a challenge, basically unbeatable unless you have a GK with Psykout Grenades or Lysander..... against any multi-wound models, he can just rip through the unit with ease, as each unsaved wound drops an entire model (here's looking at you, Paladins, Nobz, Thunderwolves, Grotesques, Nid Warriors, and pretty much any kind of Monstrous Creature or IC without EW).

 

As has been noted over on Imperator Guide's Tacticas, using fast units with an Icon to "pull" him in by DS near enemy lines is a highly effective tactic, as is placing him somewhere in which the enemy has to "come to him" (i.e. defending key objectives, contesting the Relic, etc.)

[Azekai]

Anyone note that he causes ID with all of his attacks.... that is a ridiculously good deal, with no Psychic Test or any other requirement.... in a challenge, basically unbeatable unless you have a GK with Psykout Grenades or Lysander..... against any multi-wound models, he can just rip through the unit with ease, as each unsaved wound drops an entire model (here's looking at you, Paladins, Nobz, Thunderwolves, Grotesques, Nid Warriors, and pretty much any kind of Monstrous Creature or IC without EW).

 

As has been noted over on Imperator Guide's Tacticas, using fast units with an Icon to "pull" him in by DS near enemy lines is a highly effective tactic, as is placing him somewhere in which the enemy has to "come to him" (i.e. defending key objectives, contesting the Relic, etc.)

 

No one is saying that ol' Skar isn't a horror in close combat- the big trick is getting him there intact. His best use might be as a targeted missile, to deepstrike next to something or someone that absolutely has to die. 

[Khaines wrath]

yeah i just dont like the fact that any 1 devastator squad can take him down and i especially dont like the fact that he has no defence against psychic powers and even more that any char with instant death weapon will some 30 bodyguard will kill him if theyve already tarpitted him and he cant issue a chalenge to the id man and his only defense against it is a 5+ the only reason i think he might be alright is because he nearly almosts strikes first doing id with carnage and slaughter( love those names)

[Iron Sage]

yeah i just dont like the fact that any 1 devastator squad can take him down and i especially dont like the fact that he has no defence against psychic powers and even more that any char with instant death weapon will some 30 bodyguard will kill him if theyve already tarpitted him and he cant issue a chalenge to the id man and his only defense against it is a 5+ the only reason i think he might be alright is because he nearly almosts strikes first doing id with carnage and slaughter( love those names)

 

IMO the issue is getting him into combat and avoiding the worst of Mat Wards extravagances/unfair/broken (pick  one) in HtH (Grey Knights). There is obviously also the issue concerning him getting shot to pieces by normal armies from good balanced codices, as he can indeed die too soon, should he be the victim of focus fire (though his +3 armour is going to help a lot I reckon)

 

To my eyes, your example with 30 bodyguard and a dude with ID tarpitting him is a bad example. Why you may ask? Well, for one, Skarbrand will not (you are going to DS Skarbrand in 90% of your games) be assaulted or assault such a unit as it would obviously be foolish, and despite the fact that Skarbrand is not fast, you do have some control as to which enemy he is going to fight. Also, you will never ever want to run him around unsupported, so its not as if its an issue. Why? Well, if he is not supported, why then have him in the list at all when the main reason for his inclusion is surely the bubble he grants his allies?

 

As for one dev squad taking down Skarbrand in one turn, well, it`s theoretically possible, but thats one damn lucky Dev. squad ! ;)

[Khaines wrath]

yeah i just dont like the fact that any 1 devastator squad can take him down and i especially dont like the fact that he has no defence against psychic powers and even more that any char with instant death weapon will some 30 bodyguard will kill him if theyve already tarpitted him and he cant issue a chalenge to the id man and his only defense against it is a 5+ the only reason i think he might be alright is because he nearly almosts strikes first doing id with carnage and slaughter( love those names)

IMO the issue is getting him into combat and avoiding the worst of Mat Wards extravagances/unfair/broken (pick one) in HtH (Grey Knights). There is obviously also the issue concerning him getting shot to pieces by normal armies from good balanced codices, as he can indeed die too soon, should he be the victim of focus fire (though his +3 armour is going to help a lot I reckon)

To my eyes, your example with 30 bodyguard and a dude with ID tarpitting him is a bad example. Why you may ask? Well, for one, Skarbrand will not (you are going to DS Skarbrand in 90% of your games) be assaulted or assault such a unit as it would obviously be foolish, and despite the fact that Skarbrand is not fast, you do have some control as to which enemy he is going to fight. Also, you will never ever want to run him around unsupported, so its not as if its an issue. Why? Well, if he is not supported, why then have him in the list at all when the main reason for his inclusion is surely the bubble he grants his allies?

As for one dev squad taking down Skarbrand in one turn, well, it`s theoretically possible, but thats one damn lucky Dev. squad !

how is it lucky? a guy that makes them bs5 hits on 2+ wounds on 2+ and with a 5+ inv your only going to pass one( unless u did what i did, against abbadon and 4 terminators of khorne, skarbrand killed all the terminators and 1 wound from abbadon abbadon rolled 6 12 attacks hit all but 3 with re-rolls and failed one to wound (rolled one 3 times in a row) skarbrand was left with 1 wound to kill abbadon and he did.) but then a standard space marine squad w average r launcher will probably finish him off. they dont have to be lucky its just statistics and statistics state he will be left with one wound and 2 "if he's lucky"

[Iron Sage]

yeah i just dont like the fact that any 1 devastator squad can take him down and i especially dont like the fact that he has no defence against psychic powers and even more that any char with instant death weapon will some 30 bodyguard will kill him if theyve already tarpitted him and he cant issue a chalenge to the id man and his only defense against it is a 5+ the only reason i think he might be alright is because he nearly almosts strikes first doing id with carnage and slaughter( love those names)

IMO the issue is getting him into combat and avoiding the worst of Mat Wards extravagances/unfair/broken (pick one) in HtH (Grey Knights). There is obviously also the issue concerning him getting shot to pieces by normal armies from good balanced codices, as he can indeed die too soon, should he be the victim of focus fire (though his +3 armour is going to help a lot I reckon)

To my eyes, your example with 30 bodyguard and a dude with ID tarpitting him is a bad example. Why you may ask? Well, for one, Skarbrand will not (you are going to DS Skarbrand in 90% of your games) be assaulted or assault such a unit as it would obviously be foolish, and despite the fact that Skarbrand is not fast, you do have some control as to which enemy he is going to fight. Also, you will never ever want to run him around unsupported, so its not as if its an issue. Why? Well, if he is not supported, why then have him in the list at all when the main reason for his inclusion is surely the bubble he grants his allies?

As for one dev squad taking down Skarbrand in one turn, well, it`s theoretically possible, but thats one damn lucky Dev. squad !

how is it lucky? a guy that makes them bs5 hits on 2+ wounds on 2+ and with a 5+ inv your only going to pass one( unless u did what i did, against abbadon and 4 terminators of khorne, skarbrand killed all the terminators and 1 wound from abbadon abbadon rolled 6 12 attacks hit all but 3 with re-rolls and failed one to wound (rolled one 3 times in a row) skarbrand was left with 1 wound to kill abbadon and he did.) but then a standard space marine squad w average r launcher will probably finish him off. they dont have to be lucky its just statistics and statistics state he will be left with one wound and 2 "if he's lucky"

In your example, you should hardly be surprised that he got killed afterwards as he according to you, just wiped out the spearhead of the enemy solo on his lonesome.

As for one dev squad taking an unwounded Skarbrand down in one single turn, yes indeed, it is very lucky. A dev squad doest usually have a million of high strenght attacks. In your example, your stating that it wounds on 2+, which indicates lascannons or missile launchers, both of which are single shot, and unless the game has changed since last time I cheacked up a Dev squad, they can carry 4 heavy weapons and not 5 or more. As for statistics, I doubt any statistic would support your claim that a dev squad can kill him in 1 round without being, exactly what I said, which is lucky.

[Khaines wrath]

yeah i just dont like the fact that any 1 devastator squad can take him down and i especially dont like the fact that he has no defence against psychic powers and even more that any char with instant death weapon will some 30 bodyguard will kill him if theyve already tarpitted him and he cant issue a chalenge to the id man and his only defense against it is a 5+ the only reason i think he might be alright is because he nearly almosts strikes first doing id with carnage and slaughter( love those names)

IMO the issue is getting him into combat and avoiding the worst of Mat Wards extravagances/unfair/broken (pick one) in HtH (Grey Knights). There is obviously also the issue concerning him getting shot to pieces by normal armies from good balanced codices, as he can indeed die too soon, should he be the victim of focus fire (though his +3 armour is going to help a lot I reckon)

To my eyes, your example with 30 bodyguard and a dude with ID tarpitting him is a bad example. Why you may ask? Well, for one, Skarbrand will not (you are going to DS Skarbrand in 90% of your games) be assaulted or assault such a unit as it would obviously be foolish, and despite the fact that Skarbrand is not fast, you do have some control as to which enemy he is going to fight. Also, you will never ever want to run him around unsupported, so its not as if its an issue. Why? Well, if he is not supported, why then have him in the list at all when the main reason for his inclusion is surely the bubble he grants his allies?

As for one dev squad taking down Skarbrand in one turn, well, it`s theoretically possible, but thats one damn lucky Dev. squad !

how is it lucky? a guy that makes them bs5 hits on 2+ wounds on 2+ and with a 5+ inv your only going to pass one( unless u did what i did, against abbadon and 4 terminators of khorne, skarbrand killed all the terminators and 1 wound from abbadon abbadon rolled 6 12 attacks hit all but 3 with re-rolls and failed one to wound (rolled one 3 times in a row) skarbrand was left with 1 wound to kill abbadon and he did.) but then a standard space marine squad w average r launcher will probably finish him off. they dont have to be lucky its just statistics and statistics state he will be left with one wound and 2 "if he's lucky"

In your example, you should hardly be surprised that he got killed afterwards as he according to you, just wiped out the spearhead of the enemy solo on his lonesome.

As for one dev squad taking an unwounded Skarbrand down in one single turn, yes indeed, it is very lucky. A dev squad doest usually have a million of high strenght attacks. In your example, your stating that it wounds on 2+, which indicates lascannons or missile launchers, both of which are single shot, and unless the game has changed since last time I cheacked up a Dev squad, they can carry 4 heavy weapons and not 5 or more. As for statistics, I doubt any statistic would support your claim that a dev squad can kill him in 1 round without being, exactly what I said, which is lucky.

Im very sorry if i sounded offensive in any my posts it was tzeentch fooling with my mind as he did skarbrand and i lashed out at you guys for skarbrand having no Eternal warrior and only a 5+ inv as i said very sorry.and yes about the dev squad but im saying for a 90-130 pt squad(dont know points as im at school) to nearly wipe out a 225pt model in one turn is a bit annoying( about to get banned for swearing there) and as you said skarbrand is a monster in combat but if 9 warriors 6 with dual boneswords and 3 with lash at the front they strike first and that would be very fustrating especially if they overwatch with all their weapons and skar only has 5+ inv

[L30n1d4s]

A prescienced Long Fang squad with 5 MLs would have the best chance of taking Skarabrand down in a single volley, but even then you would have to be quite lucky:

 

5 shots x (8/9 chance to hit) x (5/6 chance to wound) x (2/3 chance Skarbrand fails his 5++ save) = 2-3 unsaved wounds, on average

 

What I could see killing him on one turn is a squadron of 5 Dark Angel Land Speeder Typhoons with Prescience cast on them:

 

10 Krak Missiles x (8/9 chance to hit) x (5/6 chance to wound) x (2/3 chance for unsaved wounds) = about 5 unsaved wounds.... and tha doesn't even account for the 15 Heavy Bolter Shots they can put out. Of course, this unit would cost 375 points, not counting the Librarian to cast Prescience, so that is a lot of investment to put out the firepower needed to take him down in a single round.

[Khaines wrath]

A prescienced Long Fang squad with 5 MLs would have the best chance of taking Skarabrand down in a single volley, but even then you would have to be quite lucky:

 

5 shots x (8/9 chance to hit) x (5/6 chance to wound) x (2/3 chance Skarbrand fails his 5++ save) = 2-3 unsaved wounds, on average

 

What I could see killing him on one turn is a squadron of 5 Dark Angel Land Speeder Typhoons with Prescience cast on them:

 

10 Krak Missiles x (8/9 chance to hit) x (5/6 chance to wound) x (2/3 chance for unsaved wounds) = about 5 unsaved wounds.... and tha doesn't even account for the 15 Heavy Bolter Shots they can put out. Of course, this unit would cost 375 points, not counting the Librarian to cast Prescience, so that is a lot of investment to put out the firepower needed to take him down in a single round.

wow thats looks like a lot of fire power very fun for killing enemy heavy invested hq's!

as for the long fangs do they get re-rolls or something because i dont get how its 8/9 chance to hit when if they are Bs 4 its 3/6

[L30n1d4s]

Yes, regarding the Long Fangs, I was talking about a squad of them getting Prescienced by a Rune Priest.

[Khaines wrath]

l

Yes, regarding the Long Fangs, I was talking about a squad of them getting Prescienced by a Rune Priest.

is that a bit like the eldar fortune except with to hit and wound(there is a power like this i just can remember the name)

[Fibonacci]

There is more than one way to take out a high toughness model. Forget the limited shot, high strength weapons, take a look at what 10 DE kabalite warriors with a splinter cannon could do.

[minigun762]

There is more than one way to take out a high toughness model. Forget the limited shot, high strength weapons, take a look at what 10 DE kabalite warriors with a splinter cannon could do.

You mean struggle to get through his 3+ save?

Mostly kidding but that's a drawback to poisoned weapons and their typically poor AP.

Against GUO or LoC, it's a stronger counter.

[Fibonacci]

It's a trade off. Either get by the armor with low AP weapons or get around the toughness with posion. My point is that 100 or so points worth of basic troops can do as much damage as AC havocs or LC devistators. When you are open to shooting you are kind of taking your chance at being shot up in a number of different ways. Because of this I usualy go with a bloodthirster for the flight. It beats standing around for a turn after DS soaking up bullets.

[Corrupted]

There are too many armies that can deal with a walking or deep striking MC. Skarbrand is cool and fun, but not all that effective in the end. A blood thirster on the other hand packs roughly the same punch, some times more so with rewards and warlord traits and if a flying MC. Just way more utility.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have had good success with Skarbrand. I am playing World Eaters with a Khornate daemon alliance. He runs a long behind the land raiders so he is not always the primary target. If he makes into melee he will absolutely murder most anything. The ID attacks are really good as mentioned. Another plus is he unlocks Khornate daemon princes as heavy support. He is a bit cheaper than a BT and I need those saved points to go elsewhere in my army.

[Spear of Achilles]

I've been using him in a triple thrister + skar 2500pt list for the last five games... It's all about the deepstrike results. If he scatters just a little, he makes a big diff (a bloodthrister with an extra axe of khorne reward and Skar's bubble is generating 9 str 7 AP 2  insta-kills on 6's attacks on the charge with 1's rerolled for hatred). However, taking at least one  Instrument aleviates a lot of 'no I'm not showing up' reserve rolls. Never make him your warlord, as he's far easier to kill than a nurgle or tzeentch greater daemon (note that he only gets instant death attacks if he gets to play his warlord trait). And after you maul a unit, be prepared for a long footslog to the next target.....so, critical placment and HOPEING you  arrive from reserves and don't scatter too far...he's probably not really worth it for any real assured tactics.