How to justify an Iron hands successor!

[Skylar D'Forge]

Hey, I've had an Idea I like for a DIY chapter for some time now only I'm having second thoughts and having trouble coming up with some reasons as to why they become there own chapter!

 

"Too Long have our gene-brethren scorned the flesh, too long has the Hand been miss guided. We have strayed far from Manus' path, Though the Iron is strong and is our blood right, we must always be 'One' with it and not over come by it. We forget that the metal comes from the ground, the corruptible ground. We brothers, must master it, lest we loose ourselves in its cold grip. Recant Your distrust in the Flesh, For the Hatred of what is natural and what is human, is the first and greatest of corruption! and corruption.. Corruption IS weakness..."

 

This is the ethos of the chapter I want to create, basically the feel of them is 'Iron handsy' but with less robotics and more human/astartes!

I was thinking of having them founded during the moirae schism and be a tenth founding chapter, this would give reason for there divergence in belief  and allow for pure Iron hands to leave and form this chapter! The problem is, what reason would the high lords of Terra give for there founding?

[Firepower]

The two ideas are sort of mutually exclusive, without some clever writing. You would not get a successor that decides right out of the gate to completely 180 their parent chapter's philosophy. That's something which would take time and experience to take effect, time and experience which you would have to write.

[Shinzaren]

I had a similar idea with my Blades chapter. The idea was that the chapter master believed denying the flesh and being callous and cold wasn't the best way to follow the Emperor's commands. He was good enough at his job that it was wasteful to keep him where he was in conflict with the rest of the chapter and his viewpoint was attracting followers. When a new founding arose, they saw it as a good way to offload him peacefully. That said, it is one idea out of many, and yours works just as well. 

 

In regards to the High Lords, have them require a chapter that will root out heretics, like the Iron Hands. Since it is a task the IH are already suited to, the HLOT could ask for a training cadre, and your Captain/future chapter master could be one of those chosen?

[Skylar D'Forge]

I've skimmed through your blades IA and it looks good, I dont want to steal any of your ideas but I may have to choose a similiar justification for a new chapter!

Perhaps after the moirea schism the Iron hands Clan council wanted to rid themselves of all those who did not share the same Ideology as them and so where my future chapter master was a high ranking/highly trained/respected individual in the chapter and that some were starting to share his belief that he was asked to take on a training cadre?
Perhaps the justificatoin for this is that they needed a chapter to help hunt down heratics still left in the wake of the moirea schism, or to protect a border left weakened by the schism?

[Tenebris]

A progressive development of your chapter's philosophy might be the best action to take. They should start as an ordinary IH successor chapter, with all the iconic IH traits, namely the Iron Fathers, bionics and so on. Since only a radical thing might force a chapter of the astartes to revalue their beliefs you should provide such a radical thing. Perhaps your marines were all but destroyed by a curse of their bionics so that the survivors begun to doubt the strength of iron, perhaps a malefic virus contaminated some brothers or tech heresy ruined their bionic limbs, all this are some examples of a radical event that forced your chapter into a conclave where they begun to evaluate if the creed of their primogenitor is actually proper. 

 

There is a lore stated precedent in the story Feat of Iron by Nick Kyme (The Primarchs Anthology) where the IH are cursed by the eldar and their bionic limbs rebel against them, forcing their own weapons upon them. Such an event can happen in many ways, eldar witchery, dark mechanicus curse, tech sorcery or virus heresy. With this as the turning point for your chapter you can easily than expand on your idea of IH successor chapter.

[Firepower]

There is a lore stated precedent in the story Feat of Iron by Nick Kyme (The Primarchs Anthology) where the IH are cursed by the eldar and their bionic limbs rebel against them, forcing their own weapons upon them. Such an event can happen in many ways, eldar witchery, dark mechanicus curse, tech sorcery or virus heresy. With this as the turning point for your chapter you can easily than expand on your idea of IH successor chapter.

I was thinking something like this, too.

 

Perhaps the successors have a serious ax to grind with the Necrons. They see the xenos as abominations and heretical perversions of their iron over flesh faith, and set themselves on the task of eradicating them. But as they fight the crons, over time they get tired of having their bionic limbs taken over with evil robot mind tricks, and more importantly come to see the notion of steel over flesh as a one way route to becoming just like the crons.

 

I prefer a gradual change in philosophy with maybe one pivotal event rather than a sudden, punctuated holy-hell moment where everything changes for the Chapter at once.

[Gripharius]

 

I prefer a gradual change in philosophy with maybe one pivotal event rather than a sudden, punctuated holy-hell moment where everything changes for the Chapter at once

 

I think that is a good route to go, too.  It can also be a natural progression.  Say your Chapter wages a lengthy campaign against Eldar pirates raiding a system or something.  Those marines with heavy mechanic and bionic modifications have a much higher death rate in that war because the eldar use the bionics against them.  So, your Chapter comes out of a long war naturally having members with less mechanics and bionics, and this allows the Chapter leadership to see the value of less reliance on those aspects of their IH heritage.

[Skylar D'Forge]

Can A single astartes not have there own thoughts on such things?
​ Ferrous manus has a little epilogue where he talk about his arms, how the silver on them is good but not 'of' him  and how the iron hands legion have begun to replace there left arm for an Iron/mechanical one, He wants to stop his process!
​I still want the chapter to be very Mech friendly and have allot of the same Ideology as the hands, just mixed with there own and less hatred of flesh! I was thinking that my chapter master had studied this and this is what gave him his thoughts! Perhaps I will keep him as a standard metal fan for now then! (the chapter master is going to be called Skylar D'forge)
 

So far I'm thinking that during the schism (could this be the event that's 'start's' his change in Ideology?) and the tenth founding, The high lords of Terra Decided there was a need for a chapter to safe guard a border in the _______ sector and to hunt down and destroy heretical armies that still remained from the schism, so the future chapter master Skylar was chosen from the iron hands geneseed and along with another 19 battle brothers, took charge of a training cadre. During this training the 20 veterans including Skylar saw an opportunity to kill the leader of a moirea Cult and end its domination of a planet early... arriving on the planet they set to work and soon find themselves nearing the target with only light opposition. An unexpected event takes place when the moirea traitors (Presumably would be similar to the mechanicus and/or dark mechanicus) release a virus which shuts down the mechanical implants in the astartes and are then ambushed by the moirea tech-priests and there cultists... 3 of the more augmented of the battle brothers are rendered unable to fight, Some finding themselves barely able to engage the enemy in an effective combat are cut down in the first few moments of the battle, The six least augmented/ most pure astartes of them including Skylar D'forge lead a counter attack allowing the surviving members to retreat, by the end of the engagement only 9 of the astartes are left alive. (seeing his brothers who were no doubt 'proud' of there bionics, so easely killed would no doubt change his mind) Swearing vengeance upon the traitors and facing the shame of being defeated Skylar takes it upon himself to bring the training cadre up to an  adequate standard, the cadre (of 100 astartes?) and a force of 10,000 imperial guard/planatary defence forces/men brought into service return to the planet, by this time the traitors have begun to take hold of the other planets with-in the system, which spreads there forces thinly over 5 planets, (2 will be uninhabitable/barely habitable, 1 will be a barren planet which will have a small Un-awakend necron tomb, and the 2 will be a garden planet with a population whom are greko-roman'esque? and another habitable planet which is no so good but... habitable? this last planet, the habitable but crummy is the one that the first fighting was taking place on) over the next period of time the imperial force retakes the system, on the garden planet, the human population already established had resisted the moirea rebels and so affectively had they done so that the astartes were impressed, here they build there fortress monastary and teach the population the ways of ferrus! over time the astartes take on some of the traits of the population and they take on the spacemarines, the other planet is given to the imperial guard who helped take the system where a hive world is established, the necron tomb will then be awakened when they mine the planet, but that's a story for another day...

Will this suffice as a reason for the chapter to be formed and to have a less bionic (but still mech friendly) Ideology?
Obviously I still need to nail out the finer details and make turn that into a more legible 'early history' but is there anything else I should change? I just don't want this chapter to conflict to much with lore happy members as I know that the closer to the lore I can keep it, the better! 

[Skylar D'Forge]

Why is nobody giving me feedback! :'( I want to start wrighting up the IA... and once its written I probably wont re-write it so... I sthis okay or is there something wrong with it?

[Machine God]

Nice idea.

[Skylar D'Forge]

Thanks...

[BassWave]

Hail brother. I'd just like to comment that it seems that people quite often like making IH successors that are not as harsh and/or not bionic heavy. I don't know why this is, but I find it kind of funny :P

 

Anyways, about the whole virus affecting bionics thing. The Iron Hands have been using bionics for 10,000 years. The Iron Hands would have developed counter measures to most ways of messing with electronics. In my opinion, it always seemed like a lazy cop out when the Iron Hands are bested because their robotics were exploited as a weakness.

 

I would instead suggest that your fledgling chapter found those old letters that were attributed to Ferrus about not liking bionics,  and simultaneously have a situation where normal humans impress them in a big way on the battle field. That could get the ball rolling for some fundamental changes to happen.

[Skylar D'Forge]

Thank you this is similar to my orginal idea! :')  which did not seem to go down well with other people! I I'll probably try wrighting two IA's one focused on Ideology and the study of ferrus manus, and the other focused on a situational change in philosohpy!

[Machine God]

Hail brother. I'd just like to comment that it seems that people quite often like making IH successors that are not as harsh and/or not bionic heavy. I don't know why this is, but I find it kind of funny

Anyways, about the whole virus affecting bionics thing. The Iron Hands have been using bionics for 10,000 years. The Iron Hands would have developed counter measures to most ways of messing with electronics. In my opinion, it always seemed like a lazy cop out when the Iron Hands are bested because their robotics were exploited as a weakness.

I would instead suggest that your fledgling chapter found those old letters that were attributed to Ferrus about not liking bionics, and simultaneously have a situation where normal humans impress them in a big way on the battle field. That could get the ball rolling for some fundamental changes to happen.

Although the virus thing was used by the Magos in Wrath of Iron.

[Tenebris]

First, the Moriae Schism is not per se a heretical thing but a different standing in Mechanicus philosophy with some notes of prophecy and illumination trough binary code chants across the universe. It is a thing beyond the comprehension of most people, especially the ordinary ones, but a philosophy quite in contrast with several orthodox sects of the Mechanicus to warrant a sort of clandestine civil war among the priesthood of Mars.

 

I stand in line, shoulder to shoulder with BassWave, an IH successor that it is not ruthless, bionic and severely lacking empathy for non augmented baseline humanity,...well it is strange to say the least. It is usually hard to throw away the philosophy of a primogenitor chapter, especially if it is a founding legion.

 

Still, one note. To create a SM chapter, a new successor, several hundreds of years are needed. To make 1000 marines a magos biologos facility would probably need around 55 years to make 1000 zygotes and who knows how many years to identify the proper recruits for implantation, the time for indoctrination and training and so on. All this without counting the severity of the process and the first years of scrutiny for genetic or spiritual deviation.

 

Also a cadre sent to discipline and indoctrinate a chapter bearing their original legion seed has other tasks than to roam around to play heroes. They need to scour regions of space to identify future neophytes, they have to indoctrinate the ones that the Mechanicus provided and above all guide the very first marines of the new chapter into a series of tests with the goal to present the High Lords of Terra, a hundred years later, a battleworthy chapter. Should the said cadre get so depleted in action things might look dire.

 

The new chapter can get their doctrine from some scriptures or from a series of events that forced the new marines to take a stand and evaluate everything that they have been taught. Both are viable options provided that they are a progressive work. Sudden changes in spirit, teachings and demeanor in an astartes chapter is usually the first sign of chaos corruption. 

 

To be simple, have your command elements from the IH legion learn the words of Ferrus from an ancient and revered front, like a dreadnought or something equally influential. This teachings have no need to create a schism in the clan but your commander could have carried them with himself once, several hundred years later he was chosen to forge the destiny of a new chapter. At first the IH Iron Fathers would preach the psalms of the Mechanicus and the Iron Creed but later on, slowly and steadily the philosophies of the now defunct chapter master (or who knows, now a dreadnought) would spread. Combine with a genuine appreciation for a valorous deed forged by a host of not augmented humans and you can work your chapter in life.

 

I would personally stay away from too much calamity in the first years of the chapter, usually the most relevant changes are the ones that take a long time to take form and happen. 

 

Still I am not sure if the IH are now the best chapter to act as a primogenitor for your purpose.

[Skylar D'Forge]

I want Iron hands to be the parent chapter... due to me being... somewhat... Of a massive fanboy n00b lord... They were my first spacemarine love and I have a massive soft spot for them (I think we can all admit to having a Favorite , this is my first DIY chapter and it will be the bases for the army which I am currently collecting and have about £200 plus already in... So I want my army to be personal and one that I like, As I have got older I have started to dislike the whole, flesh is weak thing...

But enough sob story!

Perhaps then, I will have the need for them pre-date the moirea schism and have them founded in the middle of it, this would tie the chapter nicely in with the law of 40k due to any 'iron hands' and mechanicus affiliated chapters being drawn into the conflict, this gives them time to build and train a significant amount of battle brothers... I think I may have overstated the amount of Love of flesh I want, I still want it to be very, 'Oh you lost a finger did you? Lets replace your entire arm and stick a drill, a gun the size of your leg, 2 or three lasers and buzz saw for good measure! Oh you want a 'hand' with that... fine you can have a hand' just not quite to the extent that the iron hands are, which would manifest it that, apart from there left hand, they do not 'choose' to loose parts of there body and replace them but if an injury arises which presents itself as a weakness...

I do have another Question though, How do chapter pick A home-world or place to base there fortress Monastery? I have never really seen this made clear and i think it would help to know this before I wright down that the home-world that they take from ________ (currently rebels/chaos cultists) were an indiginous population are resisting them, only to find out from someone when i post it that this world would just be given over to Inquisition/Terra Lords!

[soddinnutter]

Maybe they were a very pious Iron Creed chapter, saw the Emperor as Deus Mechanica and undying sovereign, despised weakness in all its myriad forms, function over form, outcome over means and with a healthy belief in the rightness of the strong exploiting the downtrodden. Truly poster boys of the Ferrus Mannus progeny.

 

They spend their first few centuries exploiting the Guard, Arbiters, Ecclesiarchy, Mechanicus, Skittarii, Titanica, Cybernetica and Navy. They sacrifice all for the only virtue that matters; Victory. For humanity to endure it must suffer so that the weaknesses can be bled from its body one drop of blood at a time. Do not get along well with others. Habitually kill any Governor who asks for their help, as a cry for help is a declaration of incompetence and weakness. Then they execute the rest of the planets administrators, their families and their close friends to make sure the message is understood. On numerous occasions they exterminate the planetary population down to the point of diminishing returns on the kill/effort ratio and call in replacement populations to re-colonise the vacant world in a manner similar to the aftermath of the 1^st Armageddon War.

 

During one crusade their leader winds up fighting on the same field of battle that a Living Saint becomes manifest. Gradually attitudes start to change. They start to take notice of the deeds of lesser mortals, their bloody-minded tenacity and their savage nobility. When they see a PDF soldier getting hacked down by a World Eater they no longer see someone too weak to survive, they see someone strong enough to show defiance. As the oldies die off and the fresh recruits work their way up the ranks the outlook of the chapter becomes increasingly less grim. They recall Mutilators, Oblitorators, the unspeakable things churned out of the Soul Forge and always the Chaos Mechanicum and they know the machine is just as corruptible as the flesh.

And always they recall that the Emperor walked in flesh and blood and that the Warmaster was a Primarch, brother to their progenitor, and maybe they start to feel a little less high and mighty.

[BassWave]

As I have got older I have started to dislike the whole, flesh is weak thing...

Heresy!

Hail brother. I'd just like to comment that it seems that people quite often like making IH successors that are not as harsh and/or not bionic heavy. I don't know why this is, but I find it kind of funny

Anyways, about the whole virus affecting bionics thing. The Iron Hands have been using bionics for 10,000 years. The Iron Hands would have developed counter measures to most ways of messing with electronics. In my opinion, it always seemed like a lazy cop out when the Iron Hands are bested because their robotics were exploited as a weakness.

I would instead suggest that your fledgling chapter found those old letters that were attributed to Ferrus about not liking bionics, and simultaneously have a situation where normal humans impress them in a big way on the battle field. That could get the ball rolling for some fundamental changes to happen.

Although the virus thing was used by the Magos in Wrath of Iron.

Yeah, it was used on the serfs, not the marines. That scene pissed me off and I was waiting for the marines to come back and put that magos in her place. Unfortunately however, that scene never came

[NightrawenII]

Hail brother. I'd just like to comment that it seems that people quite often like making IH successors that are not as harsh and/or not bionic heavy. I don't know why this is, but I find it kind of funny

My thoughts exactly.

But then again, people want a Unforgiven who doesn't hunt the Fallen, curse-free Blood Angels and RavenGuard successor with bombastic approach to warfare. I think it has something to do with being original and/or prominent but... Blood Angels without curse of Sanguinius are just red Ultramarines. *shrug*

*+*+*+*

Homeworld issue - precedents as found in the lore:

#A It's commissioned at the Founding.

#B Given as a reward for outstanding service.

#C Chapter claims it by the right of conquest.

~ NightrawenII

[Tenebris]

How a space marine chapter gets the rights over a planet and how the rights originate in the first place... The Imperium constantly sends out Explorator Fleets of the Mechanicus and Missionaria Galaxia ships to explore the unknown regions of space or remote human inhabited planets. More often than not this sectors of space are very dangerous, with human populations on the brink of extintion or with major xenos threats.

 

Sometimes the Mechanicus, the Ecclesiarchy or the Sector Lords petition the High Lords of Terra to create a space marine chapter just for the purpose of guarding such vast sectors of untamed and uncivilized space where only the might of transhuman warriors can bring order.

 

Along with the exploration and the research for lost STC technology the Mechanicus and the Magos Biologos have the task to monitor the human populations of the newly discovered sectors. Most of the times the humans on distant worlds have regressed to a barbaric or feudal society. Such civilizations, if we can call them as such, have little value to the Imperium, they are unable to provide material or workforce, employ technology or construct something useful, instead should such savage groups of mankind prove to be genetically stable they are often seconded to the Magos Bilogos as levies for astartes stock or pressed into service as barbaric, yet effective, Imperial Guard troops.

 

A chapter, especially a newly created chapter usually is given the rights over such a world of primitive humans, a world of savages and barbarians, for the only use of such populations is as prime genestock for the creation of new astartes. That is why most of the chapters have their keeps on such remote and uncivilized worlds, full of barbarian tribes in constant conflict. Thus the rights over a world are more often than not given to an appointed chapter to provide it with neophytes as well as to establish a military presence, and what a presence, in some of the most remote, wild and dangerous regions of space.

 

A second way to obtain the rights over a planet is deduced from the lawful autonomy of the adeptus astartes. Every chapter apart being a military formation it is also a separate, autonomous political body. It has its own alliances, trade agreements, pacts and feuds but most important than all, the full rights to safeguard its interests void of any imperial interference bar the Inquisition. Thus a chapter can assume the rights over a planet and its population which will be from now on under the aegis of the chapter both in good and bad. The marines usually maintain some sort of institutional order on such remote planets, they might even have basic planetary defense forces but the majority of the "sequestered" planet will remain oblivious of its astartes masters. Thus a chapter can as part of their long established rights from the dawn of the Imperium call the rights over a planet and its people. Again this should be done with some political savvy especially if the planet is an important fulcrum of imperial activity like a Forge World, a Hive World or similar planets. 

 

In your case the planet can be taken under the aegis of the chapter because of two reasons. First the need to obtain a ready available stock of baseline humanity to select neophytes and chapter serfs from it, while the second is to establish a stable presence in the region they were created to protect and safeguard. There will be little objection if your chapter takes control of a planet of which the only contribution to the Imperium are its savage people but a more vocal opposition will come if your chapter takes over a civilized, rich world. Especially a planet whose tithes are impressive. An on the tithes, bear in mind that an astartes world is spared the demanding tithes to the Imperium unless it is a highly productive world, so the Imperium might consider twice before granting you the rights over a civilized world, while little to no objections will be made if your marines take over a feral world.

 

There is no special requirement to take over a planet, if a chapter of the astartes considers this right and proper for their own interests than a space marine chapter has the full rights and the backing of ancient imperial laws to make their claims true. The is no need for wars, rebellions and such, those are mere plot devices, in truth the chapter can simply land to the planet, plant its flag and claim it for the brotherhood, it is well within their rights.

 

EDIT: Right of conquest. If a space marine chapter bleed and died to conquer a planet they might obtain the said planet as a reward for their sacrifice. If the chapter was engaged in a war and won it, it has the rights to claim the spoils of war, which means many things. Weapons, armor, technology, slavestock and even the whole planet. There are few if any forces willing to have an argument with a space marine chapter.

[Skylar D'Forge]

As I see it, If you want to make a DIY chapter that Exactly the same as there forbearers then why?.. Just play the founding chapter!
The reason people do it is due to people wanting there own chapter!

[Ecritter]

As I see it, If you want to make a DIY chapter that Exactly the same as there forbearers then why?.. Just play the founding chapter!

The reason people do it is due to people wanting there own chapter!

Very well said. 

[Tenebris]

Indeed, a DIY chapter is just that, Do It Yourself. It is a font of inspiration, creativity and the true purpose of the hobby. Said that I am a great fan of DIY chapters provided that they are "reasonable" even by the lackuster standards of 40k. Provided that you are not in the company of lore nazis everything should prove viable and the big rulebook in fact encourages this. 

 

Now to simply copy paste the IH into another color scheme plastic soldiers is an understandable thing, a first step for many. But in truth the best thing when you start and army is that fuzzly littte wee feeling when you paint your plastic soldiers and you immagine their background, their motivations and in my case their names, records and so on. 

 

My personal experience says that it is much better to evolve the lore on your warband as you go, as you fight battles and compete with other players. A player is the Librarian of his chapter, warband, host, he records the events and actions of his little soldiers and he alone credits them with battle honors and rolls. 

 

Yet despite all, a modicum of background, a "lorewise" background is always welcome. 

[NightrawenII]

As I see it, If you want to make a DIY chapter that Exactly the same as there forbearers then why?.. Just play the founding chapter!

The reason people do it is due to people wanting there own chapter!

As I see it, there is difference between divergent interpretation x removal/abandonment of the iconic tradition. The former complements the geneline and its traits. The latter case just questions the choice of gene-seed.

 

 

There is no special requirement to take over a planet, if a chapter of the astartes considers this right and proper for their own interests than a space marine chapter has the full rights and the backing of ancient imperial laws to make their claims true. The is no need for wars, rebellions and such, those are mere plot devices, in truth the chapter can simply land to the planet, plant its flag and claim it for the brotherhood, it is well within their rights.

This is not true, however.

Such course of action is outside of the mandate of a Space Marine chapter. (Index Astartes books)

 

 

~ NightrawenII

[Tenebris]

It depends on the planet. Most of the sector governors and lords would be grateful to have a space marine chapter in their region, the true problem comes from the Administratum. Should a world claimed by a space marine chapter be an important hub of imperial activity like a hive world, a forge world or a shrine world many organizations within the Imperium would object the claim of the astartes and the Administratum will be called upon to settle things.

 

But should a world be a feudal or feral than the Imperium bar levying some troops from would leave it to the astartes. Indeed a modicum of justification, some political manipulations, some trials and commissions would be required to legalize the whole procedure but in the end even the Inquisition powerful as it may be would be hardly pressed when interfering with a chapter's business.