Faithwing Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Brothers, I was playing a team game the other night with my team being Sisters of Battle/Grey Knights, vs Chaos Space Marines/Crimson Fists. I brought an allied detachment with Commander Dante with my SoB. I decided to use the Death Mask's curse on my opponents Abaddon, the Despoiler. Now, later in the game, Abaddon killed my teammate's Brotherhood Champion, which netted Abaddon a roll on the Chaos Boon table... which to our luck, he got spawnhood. This is where the question comes up - Does the curse from the Death Mask of Sanguinius still affect him? The Death Mask targets an Independent Character, who just got replaced with a Chaos Spawn. The spawn loses all wargear and special rules, but retains any Chaos Marks, and retains it's Warlord status (although it loses the Warlord Trait). However, Dante's curse is not a special rule, and it does not belong to Abaddon. It's a piece of wargear owned by Dante. Would the game check for Independent Character status at the beginning of the game, when the curse is used, or would the curse be erased as soon as that character lost his independent character status? The wording in the Chaos Boon table says to replace the model with a Spawn, but still refers to the Spawn as "Champion". My ally was arguing in Dante's favor, and the Chaos player was arguing in Abaddon's favor (of course), and I was kinda in the middle, seeing how it could go either way. We ended up rolling for it, and the result was Abaddon-Spawn would be unaffected. Which I neither agree, nor disagree with. What do you guys think? PS: Don't feel bad about Abaddon's spawn roll... the player rolled out 2 free Daemon Princes before the game started from Gifts of Mutation! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 IMO, no. You replace Abaddon with a spawn, therefore abaddon is no longer around to be affected. That he has turned into a spawn is irrelevant. Abaddon has been removed from play and is therefore a casualty. Same would apply to Dark Apotheosis. 'Replace model with Chaos Spawn/Daemon Prince' The only way the mask would still work is if it was worded along the lines of 'the model loses all wargear and swaps his characteristics and special rules with those of a Spawn/Daemon Prince' because then you'd still have Abaddon the Chaos Spawn. As it stands you no longer have Abaddon, you have a Chaos Spawn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3335828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 PS: Don't feel bad about Abaddon's spawn roll... the player rolled out 2 free Daemon Princes before the game started from Gifts of Mutation! 95% sure that you cannot roll dark apothesis before the game begins and have to reroll. Your friend either only read the good bits of the rule, or cheated you. Talk to him about it. If the spawn comes into play with as many wounds as Abby had, then the mask still applies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3335834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ifrit446 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 What Xenith said is correct, there is NO WAY to roll spawnhood or apotheosis before the game starts. The codex states that you always reroll those if it happens Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3335856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 IMO, no. You replace Abaddon with a spawn, therefore abaddon is no longer around to be affected. That he has turned into a spawn is irrelevant. Abaddon has been removed from play and is therefore a casualty. Same would apply to Dark Apotheosis. 'Replace model with Chaos Spawn/Daemon Prince' The only way the mask would still work is if it was worded along the lines of 'the model loses all wargear and swaps his characteristics and special rules with those of a Spawn/Daemon Prince' because then you'd still have Abaddon the Chaos Spawn. As it stands you no longer have Abaddon, you have a Chaos Spawn. He is not a casualty, he is still the warlord. He just loses all his gear/rules and is replaced by the spawn rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3336034 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 PS: Don't feel bad about Abaddon's spawn roll... the player rolled out 2 free Daemon Princes before the game started from Gifts of Mutation! 95% sure that you cannot roll dark apothesis before the game begins and have to reroll. Your friend either only read the good bits of the rule, or cheated you. Talk to him about it. If the spawn comes into play with as many wounds as Abby had, then the mask still applies. Actually you can have dark apotheosis from Gift, but it is highly unlikely. You cannot reroll a reroll, so if you get dark apotheosis twice for a character, it sticks. Doing this for two separate characters is very, very unlikely. I would check your opponents dice, and/or see if he has made any pacts with the devil. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3336046 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithwing Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Wow, yeah I just checked... he's been pregame DPing against us basically every game. I'm glad he can't, because his luck is dumb. Thanks! Xenith, how does the number of wounds effect this? I would think the keywords here would be "model", and "replace". Am I just missing something? Tanith Ghost, yeah, that's where my argument FOR Dante stemmed from. The Chaos Dex still refers to the Spawned character as "champion". However, the spawn IS losing the Independent Character rule... which you must have for the Death Mask to curse. But as I mention earlier, he did have the Independent Character rule at the time the curse was placed... but would that matter? Would the game constantly check if your target has the IC rule, or would it just check once when you lay the curse on? Good feedback so far, brothers. Let's keep this one going, because I'd like to get to the bottom of this! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3336465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 As per C:CSM, "The champion only counts as killed once this Chaos Spawn is removed as a casualty, or if it cannot be placed on the board. The champion is now a separate unengaged, non-scoring unit that retains none of the champion's special rules or wargear." I don't see anything about it losing IC status so it should still work. Even if it does lose its status, you still cursed him before he lost IC status therefore I think it'd still be in effect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3336516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithwing Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Yeah, I can see how it works from that angle. The problem is: 1) losing all special rules results in the loss of IC status 2) Dante's curse is hitting a "model" 3) Spawnhood replaces the "model" with a spawn. Thats the gist of the argument against Dante, I think. What about the argument for our Chapter Master?... or is there one to compete with the 3 points above? I hope he can, because I play against Chaos a lot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3336521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 As per C:CSM, "...retains none of the champion's special rules or wargear." I don't see anything about it losing IC status so it should still work. Even if it does lose its status, you still cursed him before he lost IC status therefore I think it'd still be in effect. So, yes, he loses his IC status because he loses all his special rules, including Independent Character. I think it is clear that the spawn is completely separate from whatever it used to be and can no longer be affected by Dante's curse. The spawn has no connection to the model it used to be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3336919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I agree that the spawn is no longer affected by the curse, as he is a completely different model and loses all special rules etc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3336935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 YEs, and the curse is also a special rule that he is affected by... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3337008 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Sky Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 PS: Don't feel bad about Abaddon's spawn roll... the player rolled out 2 free Daemon Princes before the game started from Gifts of Mutation! 95% sure that you cannot roll dark apothesis before the game begins and have to reroll. Your friend either only read the good bits of the rule, or cheated you. Talk to him about it. If the spawn comes into play with as many wounds as Abby had, then the mask still applies. Actually you can have dark apotheosis from Gift, but it is highly unlikely. You cannot reroll a reroll, so if you get dark apotheosis twice for a character, it sticks. Doing this for two separate characters is very, very unlikely. I would check your opponents dice, and/or see if he has made any pacts with the devil. No you cannot, as according to the codex: Before deployment, roll on the Chaos Boon table (pg 29) and mark the result on your army roster. Do not apply any Spawn hood or Dark Apotheosis results; roll again on the table instead. The model has that result for the entire game. Underlining is mine. I would argue that codex trumps rulebook and you get to reroll untill you roll a legal result, but I cannot find anything to back up my arguments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3337016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Well, you might be right, Black_Sky. I guess the sticking point is whether or not the 'roll again' clause counts as a re-roll as per the main rulebook. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3337045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiros14 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Applying the rule of cool, I would Side with Dante on this one. Abbadon's been cursed, and turning into a monster spawn thing won't stop the curse, as it is still Abbadon... but with arms. Joking aside, sometimes the rule of cool works best in these sort of situations, as what else is the fluff in the rules for? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3337068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mordenkenain Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 In the interest of fair play, I would agree with Black_Sky Quote Before deployment, roll on the Chaos Boon table (pg 29) and mark the result on your army roster. Do not apply any Spawn hood or Dark Apotheosis results; roll again on the table instead. The model has that result for the entire game. Underlining is mine. I would argue that codex trumps rulebook and you get to reroll untill you roll a legal result, but I cannot find anything to back up my arguments. although there is nothing supporting the argument for repeated re-rolling, them getting absolutely nothing for having spent the points and then twice rolling double 6 (or 6 and 5, but that's not quite as impressive sounding) seems just a little bit beardy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3337090 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 You either keep re-rolling (this is how my friends play it) or you just get nothing if you roll the deamon prince thing a second time. Either way, no free prince. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3337126 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwolfalpha Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Its not a technical reroll as it is happening out of game IMO. You, just roll again till a legal roll is made. I also play CSM a lot and would like to know how Dante's curse would work against his most hated enemy. Plus, Abbadon is gross with his ap2 at initiative sword and claw of horus, while dante, one of the greatest warriors ever to walk terra, strikes at initiative 1 like a chump. (Sorry about getting off topic, but that just gets to me) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3337854 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faithwing Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 No, Wolf, Dante's combat situation really bugs me too. Being an old, super smart guy, he should probably have EW...or just give him his speed back. Anyway, what do people think about the curse vs the spawn/dp transformation? I'll probably be bringing Dante again to help out with my Sisters this weekend. Him, or Meph. Should we just roll off for it until FAQ'd? Or is there a clear answer? Thanks again, bros. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3338026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I think most people have agreed: the curse disappears. If you and your opponents don't agree, dice it off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273274-death-mask-of-sanguinius-vs-spawnhood-abaddon/#findComment-3338029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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