Custodian Athiair Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Okay me and my brother have been having a discussion, about when the heresy actually started. Was it Istvaan V, Istvaan III, Davin, Ullanor (when Horus was made first among equals)? Then we came to the conclusion that actually it was Monarchia when the Word Bearers turned from the Emperor (or started to at any rate). Then we decided surely that blame has to be passed on to a single being. So we immediatly turned to Lorgar. But then we realised that Lorgar hadn't been the first in his legion to turn (if we remember correctly) and infact Erebus and Kor Phareon had that role to play. And then it dawned on us Kor Phareon isn't even a true Astartes... So logically the entire war across the Imperium fought by Astartes against Astartes was start/caused by someone who wasn't even an Astartes or a Primarch. Opinions? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonable Commissar Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Imo it was pretty much down to Kor Phaeron and Erebus who then corrupted Lorgar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3335899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carach Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 they would never of had the opportunity to influence lorgar in such a way if other incidents had not occurred though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3335934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddball570 Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Erebus. He stole the anathame from the Kinebrach Gave it to the planetary govenor on Davin Seduced Horus to Chaos in the healing dream state on Davin Infiltrated/Established/Influenced the warrior lodges of some of the Legions While Erebus may not have been the only one initially turned to Chaos, he was the one who was made everything happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3336039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonable Commissar Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Kor Phaeron did a lot of revealing of the "Old Religion" from Colchis and imo corrupted Erebus. Typhon was also in on it from the start but there hasnt been a full Death Guard book to show the full details. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3336054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-chaplain Astador Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 What book reveals that Typhon was in on it? And yes, it seems that Kor Phaeron ultimately turned the mind of a Primarch. However he had the help of Chaos to some degree or another Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3336142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 You must remember that both Erebus and Kor Phaeron where priest of Chaos before the Emperor came to Colchis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3336149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonable Commissar Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Typhon was mentioned in Flight Of The Eisenstein and Betrayer iirc. He was one of the three original heretics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3336152 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenEngineer Posted March 26, 2013 Share Posted March 26, 2013 Keep in mind, the Word Bearers alone could not have started the Heresy; they needed the authority and talent of the Warmaster to do so. Erebus is solely to blame for the corruption of Horus, and is therefore to blame for the Heresy. Kor Phaeton caused the fall of the Word Bearers, yes, but that pales to the fact that Erenus caused the fall of Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3336235 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonable Commissar Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 But then Kor Phaeron can be considered to be responsible for the corruption of Erebus so by your own statement is therefore for blame for the heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3336686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 In the "Lion" by Gav Thorpe it is implied that Erebus talked to him about Chaos and Papa Nurgle way back in the crusade. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3337527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenEngineer Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 But then Kor Phaeron can be considered to be responsible for the corruption of Erebus so by your own statement is therefore for blame for the heresy. The problem with that line of thought is that someone else was responsible for corrupting Kor Phaeron, and so on and so forth. The question is where to we put the most blame; if Kor Phaerin had masterminded the fall, he would indeed be to blame, but instead it was more of an opportunistic move instigated by Erebus, which is why I place the lion's share of the blame at his feet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3337576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I would concur that Erebus should be considered the prime mover or the one that got the ball rolling, despite the fact that Kor Phaeron is a co-conspirator and certain events occur independently from Erebus' sphere of influence. However, as food for thought, without Erebus' tinkering and scheming, what does Kor Phaeron have? Could he have swayed Lorgar alone? Could he have put events in motion for Lorgar's corruption to matter? Perhaps, perhaps not. Could he have corrupted the other Legions to the extent that Erebus did? Again, perhaps, perhaps not. Ultimately, Kor Phaeron and Erebus were in cahoots and, aside from nitpicking and what ifs, they both instigated the fall of Lorgar and thus should equally be considered the most to blame for the Heresy, imho. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3337601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 I'm not sure if it's possible to truly place responsibility of the Heresy in the hands one a single individual. There were simply too many factors involved for this thing to occur. What if the Primarchs had never left Terra, Lorgar would most likely never had been to Colchis, and most like never have even met Erebus and Kor Phaeron. It might even have been that another Primarch became Warmaster instead of Horus. *shock* What was it that caused Kor Phaeron and Erebus to worship Chaos and set these plans in motion? If Lorgar never showed up, they would never even have considered doing it. You could then say that Lorgar caused them to set their plans in motion. But who is responsible for Lorgar? That's right: the Emperor. Now I'm not saying it's all the Emperor's fault. The point I was trying to make is that there are too many factors involved here to simply reduce it to "it's that individual's fault that the Imperial Truth died". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3337681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenEngineer Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Actually, we can say whose fault the Imperial Trurth dying was quite easily. That was clearly the fault of the Chaos Gods for existing :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3337697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calnus Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Chaos Gods. Blame it all on the gods who sent Primarchs away from Terra. Then blame the creators of the Chaos Gods, all of humanity and Eldar and various other sentient races. Then go way back to when the psychic development of the Eldar started and you get the Old Ones who only did it because of the war against the C'tan. Then you finally find a jumping off point that no one can really go beyond--The C'tan, who everyone agrees were pretty much evil. So there you have it--In a way-back-deep-down sense, the C'tan caused the rise and Fall of the Eldar, the Horus Heresy, and the galactic plague of Orks. Oh, and unless we forget, are also responsible for Necrons being around in 40K. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3337702 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodian Athiair Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Well I didn't see this happening :P But just as a counter argument saying that the Emperor caused it. If the Emperor didn't do anything or didn't exist, then the human race would still be stuck on it's own getting murdered by numerous evils in space. So he still built a (relativly) strong Empire Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3337867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uvenla Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 The circle of Heresy makers from what I know is Kor Phaeron, Erebus, Typhon and Fabius. The center man for this being Erebus, the one that truly deserves like he say himself to be called Destiny's hand but of course he makes it in his own twist. If I remember correctly thought Erebus himself is an astartes with only Kor Phaeron being the only non-astartes in the bunch of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3337888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonable Commissar Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Maybe the Emperor planned it all along and he started it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3341085 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Maybe the Emperor planned it all along and he started it. I think we'd better leave the Emperor-wanted-to-be-a-god-all-along theory alone or we might get seriously sidetracked from the main topic here. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3341096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
malika666 Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 We all know the Emperor was behind it all: LINK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3341133 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Araghast Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 We all know the Emperor was behind it all: LINK Thanks, great ideas, thought about something like that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3341174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 It was.....CREEEEEEED!? His logistics are so good he can affect the past. I remember too something about typhus being in on Lorgar's plan and I want to cite flight of the Eisenstein but don't have it in front of me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3341190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobointherain Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 I think you could probably blame the Emperor... Bare with me. It seems fairly obvious that Colchis was a corrupted world form the word go, and without going into the entire history and fluff, the Emperor didn't seem to notice when he opened his arms to Lorgar and Filled the Imperial Heralds with potentially corrupted Colchisians. Fair enough they werent openly corrupt but the subconscious seed was there, buried within the cultural heritage, which was then passed on into the Legion. So yes, Kor Phaeron and Erebus were amongst the "first heretics", but only because the cultural heritage of Colchis was inherently corrupt in the first place. Perhaps the emp was having an off day and didn't do enough research on lorgar and his buddies Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3341414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Perhaps the emp was having an off day and didn't do enough research on lorgar and his buddies Remember that Lorgar had tried to stamp out Chaos worship on Colchis in favor of Emperor worship. If he hadn't, the stench of Chaos on ordinary Colchisians presumably would have alerted the Emperor. How he failed to detect it on Erebus and Kor Phaeron is unclear. Perhaps the Chaos Gods protected them, or perhaps the Emperor never met them. Do we know how Typhon got corrupted? Nurgle is the least attractive choice of Chaos gods, especially since that whole despair thing doesn't happen much among Astartes. Humans are much more vulnerable to that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273278-wasnt-the-heresy-started-by-a-non-astartes/#findComment-3341573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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