Optimal power weapon efficiency in squads

[phabulous]

Hi all,

 

I was just wondering what you guys thought were the optimal number of power weapons you should put in a squad, namely Death Company or Veteran Vanguards, so as to keep the squad efficient but economical at the same time.

 

Would 3 power weapons (fist or otherwise) be overkill or underkill?

[Deadpool1713]

In my death company, the most I will have is 5 if I have any power weapons (in a ten man squad) I will either have 10 BP/CS DC or 5 BP/CS and 2 axes, 2 swords, and a hammer at most. Which would be about double the cost of just 3 power weapons (45 vs 90) 5 is my cap though, and that might be pushing it a bit. It all depends on what you are playing against, that usually determines how many I take. I personally never take van vets though because they cost way too much for a throwaway assault squad. Yeah they can deepstrike and assault in the same turn, but at the end of the day they are just assault marines with fancy toys who decided to dress nicely. This is quite sad because their fluff doesn't really match their stat line or they way they play on the table at all. I'd choose DC over van vets any day. The power weapons cost the same as van vets, but definitely more bang for your buck in my opinion. (For example: van vets 3 attacks on the charge per model vs DC 5 attacks on the charge per model) This is in terms of actual assault power, not transportation issues and whatnot. We all know that 15pts per DC jump pack is horrid. Anyways, always have a good mix of the type of power weapons you take because if you go into a tournament with only swords and you end up playing deathwing, you will not have a fun time. If you only want to take 3, I'd say one of each (sword, ax, hammer) wouldn't be too bad. If one of those happens to die though, then that ruins the versatility of you squad one way or another, so that's why I'll have multiples of swords and axes in a squad. Taking more than one hammer is quite costly, so I'm not as worried about taking more than one of those. One should do just fine.

 

That's my opinion on the matter, I hope it helps. I wish you luck in all of your future endeavors.

[Morticon]

Id go for 2 axes in a 8-10 man squad of DC -maybe 3.  

Vanvets I often use for anti tank, not anti infantry- so maybe 1 fist, 1 axe

[appiah4]

Power Weapons in DC?  What for?

 

2 Power Fists per 5 bodies and call it  a day.

[Pascalnz]

First off, vv's are 2 attacks base, not one and they all have ld9.  So, quite a bit better than regular assaults. with two weapons it's 4 attacks on the charge. having unchallengable Power weapons and the odd storm shield is also amazing.   It depends what you want the squad to do. Calling them nicely dressed assault marines is a severe miscalculation.

 

Also, I find power weapons[not fists/hammers] to be kind of a waste for DC. you could... just take more dc:)say you buy 4 power weapons... thats 3 dc extra you could have that's 6 bolter shots, 3 wounds , more reach and 12 attacks on the charge.

 

there are two times you might think you need power weapons, vs termies and vs marines.  lets say 200 points of each.  10 dc with bolters shoot 20 times hit 14 times and deal 7 wounds, then they charge with 40 attacks hitting 28 times wounding 21 times.  28 wounds all up.  that kills about 4 termies and around 9 tacticals.  you might lose one or two back, but you win combat and stand a really good chance of staying in combat for their turn. if you'd spent 60 points on power weapons 2 swords 2 axes you only have 7 guys sure you'll kill the termies but you will lose 3 to 4 dc .. out of 7 and now your easy prey to be shot at.  vs ten tacticals, you'll probably lose 1 or two , same initiative, overwatch, and they all die ... and you'll get shot.

 

so yeah... it depends what you want them to do, but the choices aren't easy:P

[Ushtarador]

I rarely play VV and if I do I use them for anti-tank as well, so a fist on a normal guy and meltabombs on the rest.

 

With DC I usually play 8 in a pod and take one axe and a fist - I feel the fist helps a lot against being locked down by a dreadnought or MC forever.

[Captain Death Crunch]

I agree with Pascalnz's point about power weapons on Death Company. Take more guys instead. I usually add 1 powerfist per every 5-7 guys. And JP Death Co. is expensive but fun (and tough!).

Never tried Vanguard Veterans, I'd rather have Death Co. with jump packs if I'm willing to spend that much. You're probably wasting points on VV if you're using them to Deep Strike and assault vehicles. For anti-tank DSing, just put an honor guard in a drop pod (or JPs) with 4 melta guns, or sternguard with comb-melta in a drop pod.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I generally play 1 PW per 4 DC, and/or 1 PF per 5 DC.

 

The question of PW/PF density comes down to a question of economics and battlefield role. If you crunch the math, you have to balance three factors:

1. Total Unit Cost-- Is the Unit going to perform its role with good Economy of Force?
2. Surviveability-- Is the Unit going to exist long enough to perform its role effectively?
3. Optimization-- Is the Unit specialized or did you generalize them on purpose?

Adding PW/PF favors #3, but adding bodies favors #2. So you need to pick out what you need your DC to 'do' in your list in order to satisfy #1. Examine what else you are taking in your list-- are you missing anti-Heavy Infantry? Then Power Axes are usually the way to go. Are you missing anti-Monstrous Creatures or Walkers? Probably need Power Fists.  Do you need a Diversion, something with a scary reputation that will draw attention off your main force? Then don't take any gear at all and keep the unit size small -- but hide them or drop them where the opponent will overreact to them (reputation can be a fine thing).

[dadieau]

A power fist for every 10 man Tac/Assault unit, a fist and power weapon for any under sized unit that may get into hand to hand. I  choose axes to either shave points in tight lists or add points if I'm under.

[Ghostwolfalpha]

I agree that adding more bodies is the way to go, but I would have at least one fist in there just in case something nasty comes along. Usually in a ten man unit, one fist and one sword will be plenty unless you come up against DA or loganwing.

[Deadpool1713]

First off, vv's are 2 attacks base, not one and they all have ld9. So, quite a bit better than regular assaults. with two weapons it's 4 attacks on the charge. having unchallengable Power weapons and the odd storm shield is also amazing. It depends what you want the squad to do. Calling them nicely dressed assault marines is a severe miscalculation.

Also, I find power weapons[not fists/hammers] to be kind of a waste for DC. you could... just take more dc:)say you buy 4 power weapons... thats 3 dc extra you could have that's 6 bolter shots, 3 wounds , more reach and 12 attacks on the charge.

there are two times you might think you need power weapons, vs termies and vs marines. lets say 200 points of each. 10 dc with bolters shoot 20 times hit 14 times and deal 7 wounds, then they charge with 40 attacks hitting 28 times wounding 21 times. 28 wounds all up. that kills about 4 termies and around 9 tacticals. you might lose one or two back, but you win combat and stand a really good chance of staying in combat for their turn. if you'd spent 60 points on power weapons 2 swords 2 axes you only have 7 guys sure you'll kill the termies but you will lose 3 to 4 dc .. out of 7 and now your easy prey to be shot at. vs ten tacticals, you'll probably lose 1 or two , same initiative, overwatch, and they all die ... and you'll get shot.

so yeah... it depends what you want them to do, but the choices aren't easy:P

forgot that the van vets were 4 on the charge I was typing at 2am without a reference (my codex) so I apologize for the misinformation I think I remembered that they were 2 base and added the extra for the charge and forgot the whole two weapons deal, or maybe I forgot to take into account the whole extra attack for charging, who knows. anyways, still not too convinced on them. also, your whole logic on not taking 2 axes and 2 swords for more bodies makes sense, but I'd just take 10 guys with or without power weapon upgrades though, I wouldn't sacrifice bodies for better weapons. So it'd be 200 pts (no upgrades) vs 260 (2 ax 2 swd). If I take DC, I take at least 10. lastly, I just need to make a new topic to settle this whole bolt pistol or bolter thing with the DC. I keep getting arguments from both sides and its kind of a tough call.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

to settle this whole bolt pistol or bolter thing with the DC. I keep getting arguments from both sides and its kind of a tough call.

For me it is a simple answer: Drop Pod DC go with Bolters, DC with Jump Packs or in Land Raider go with BP+CCW. There isn't really a 4th way to use DC effectively.

[Deadpool1713]

 

to settle this whole bolt pistol or bolter thing with the DC. I keep getting arguments from both sides and its kind of a tough call.

For me it is a simple answer: Drop Pod DC go with Bolters, DC with Jump Packs or in Land Raider go with BP+CCW. There isn't really a 4th way to use DC effectively.

I kind of wish I saw this a lot earlier.... I just typed a whole post about it already. However, I did not take transportation into account in my post. That is an interesting point.

[Pascalnz]

wellll, jump pack bolter guys aint bad either, you can keep other units at range with them, with the extra movement you can be far more likely to actually use them And make the charge:P.  Also, you can get rid of special weapons in opposing squads depending on their placement. I've used DC a bunch and just can't get over how much I love bolters on em:) heck you can even down DE transports.   there is also the pain that is, I5 and above enemies. want to charge a demon prince? your going to lose a lot of guys before you swing  may as well shoot him up before any retaliation.  also it makes you more likely to knock an FMC out of the sky, or even glance the back of a flyer.

 

VV's are Kooky :P  and they don't suit everyone's playstyle . but if you've ever fought against a good nid player with ymgarls you'll know just how rare and disrupting reserve assaults can be.  Funniest trick ever btw? drop assault the opponents unit/s on their quad gun. use the assault move[if you can wrangle it] or the consolidation move to end up touching the quad gun, use it in their turn to shoot a flyer:P

[Drunken Angel]

I wanted to quote CAG's last post he is right on the money as usual but my internetness is weak here offshore in Burma there is another multiplier to maximise the bolter fire and close combat its called divination, and it works in the opponents turn too. Whether you use it or not its role as a force multiplier must be included as an option. Divination primaris is a cheap chaplain, even Astorath can't get re-rolls on shooting and only on hits in CC not wounds. Lemartes is the only guy who can give DC the power to re-roll hits and wounds in CC. If you are using DC as a blocking unit to support other units its likely you have your librarian around within 12 " he changes the whole weapon load out dynamic. I put a fist and maybe an axe or an infernus pistol on my DC and then let them rip everyting else to bits with their bare hands. They are very good at that. Include divination and they become combat gods, even packing bolters. Your biggest problem may be making CC. Thats okay divination lasts till your next turn.

[SamaNagol]

DC in a pod with Bolters is quite a problem for the opponent.

 

If they can't kill the unit from shooting (and if you place them properly, they shouldn't be able to) then you have a question to ask...

 

Do I charge them and only deal with 2 attacks per model? Even though they want to be in combat. Or do I stand and shoot and get charged with 4 attacks per model due to Rage?

[Captain Death Crunch]

Jump packs with bolters can work in certain cases, but for the most part I agree with CAG's assessment.

[appiah4]

Jump packs with bolters can work in certain cases, but for the most part I agree with CAG's assessment.

 

Jumppack Boltgun DC with 2 Fists is the best of all.  Incredible Boltgun range, great charge distance, very good melee.

 

Go anywhere, shoot anything, then beat them down with your bare hands as the Emperor meant you to.