Custodian Athiair Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Hi guys, some of you may be aware myself and my brother are writing an alternative heresy, and we've come to the topic of the White Scars. We've made them traitors in our list, however seeing as we know absolutely nothing about the White Scars (because they haven't had a BL book really). So we turn to you guys, what information do you have on the White Scars in their Great Crusade/Horus Heresy years that we could potentially use to turn them into bad guys. We have rejected the plan of making them devotees to Slaanesh (we've gone back to the Emperors Children) but we can't quite think of a reason to have them turn to the side of the Lion (the arch-heretic) Thanks for any information you can give us. ps. If you want to check out the Leonic Heresy, it is in my signature. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reasonable Commissar Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 In one of the audio dramas some of the White Scars on a ship had turned traitor. They preferred the Warmaster to the Khan iirc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3336711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 IIRC Horus was counting on Jaghatai Khan at the beginning of the heresy. Jaghatai wasn't a popular guy and maybe Horus was the only primarch understood his value. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3336717 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Well they are based on the Mongols and Jaghatai Khan did wipe out all settled civilisation (even if they were a nasty bunch iirc) on his world before his discovery so maybe push that a bit harder. The civilisation Jaghatai destroys is much nicer and the White Scars are much more "pro-savagery, anti-civilisation". If it isn't a bunch of horseman roaming the plains they don't like it. Civilisation, learning, books etc. are bad. Then during the Great Crusade they're like the World Eaters and tend to wipe out everything and leave a planet scoured clean of life, especially "degenerate technological societies were man has been turned away from nature" (i.e. civilised worlds). They get called on it in the run up to the Heresy and throw in their lot with the Lion against Big E out of anger. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3336774 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForTheLion Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I see 2 ways his "bad" ways could go:The Lust for speed, and the pleasure he gains from itHis Ruthlessness and bloodthirsty waysJust like Konrad, hes not devoted to Chaos, hes just against the imperium Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3336782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodian Athiair Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Noting on what has been said, We can't really have him called on it, we've already had the Iron Hands in addition to the Word Bearers. However having him a bit like Angron could work, possible discussion point there. If any information turns up we'll use it. Thanks for everything so far. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3336791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Have the white Scars become sponsored by Doombreed! Certain daemons can take a liking to mortals (not like buddy buddy but enjoy their idiosyncrasies). After all....Doombreed is mothaf#%^in Genghis Khan! http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Doombreed (read for juvenile humor) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3336851 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodian Athiair Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Is that a joke post or a serious one??? Cause I'm seriously considering it (excluding the insanely hilarious "wiki") Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 Parts of it are, at least. For one, Doombreed is a mighty daemon prince of khorne, mightier than Angron. He was present on Horus' flagship, he did lead a black crusade, and he did destroy 2 chapters. Nothing about his identity though, or whether or not he had a conflict with Doomrider. In general, Lexicanum.com is more reliable when it comes to canon facts, or at least it mentions the source materials. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodian Athiair Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 I more meant was your suggestion serious as for a reason for the Scars to turn? Cause if it is, I don't exactly want two Khornate legions running around. I understand the ruthlessness of the Scars turning them, but I'm not sure I want them to go blood god mental again... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I was serious about Doombreed and his supposed roots as Gengis, so the Scars might earn his patronage. As for two legions under Khorne it's up to you. Maybe have WEs run off as renegades and maybe slavers (irony yes) but not Khorne Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337114 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelordcal Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Have you had the opportunity to read Brotherhood of the Storm? Its a Novella of the White Scars actions post Ullanor, really an insightful read to their attitudes and behaviors. Why would the White Scars rebel against the imperium? To answer, we must first ask who are the White Scars? White Scars are born in the saddle, they learn to ride horses before they can walk, sound familiar? Their based loosely on Mongolian culture during the time of Gengis Khan. They value honor, loyalty, have been considered savage and are fierce fighters. Unlike most other chapters, they tend to ignore the codex, have minimal military structure, and have zero problem retreating to gain tactical advantage. That final point leads to some contention in the novella between those space marines from Chogoris (chapter planet) and those Terran born. Now Khan is described as being aloof, or caring very little for the goings on of the crusades other than his immediate campaigns. He is quite close to Horus, who is the only primarch who truly values the white scars, and is almost enemies with Guilliman. That's a good place to start. The White Scars care little for organization, they don't use company or squad markings, calling themselves Brotherhoods. I've never understood why in alternate Heresy settings the white scars are portrayed as the chosen of slaanesh, it just doesn't fit in my opinion. I'd see them more as a Night Lords scenario. No one appreciates Khan, he feels like an outcast and he's sick of being XYZ Primarch's punching bag. So he goes on a rampage. He doesn't worship chaos, he's only their to get back at those who looked down upon his legion. Try and find a copy of Brotherhood of the Storm... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337330 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 <p>Khan was also close with Lion as far as I remember. Can anyone confirm this?</p> Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337371 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 As others have said I'd regard them more as either undivided Legion or more likely Traitor but not Chaos Legion. I think general savagery, distaste for civilisation and "order" is a good place to start. Add to that a dusting of personal conflicts with Loyalist Primarchs, friendships with Traitors Primarchs and you could be there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337437 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodian Athiair Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 I think we'll be running off what you guys have given us for sure. But aboutbfriendship with other primarches, who did the Kahn like/dislike. Just so we know what we have to work with. Thanks Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Well we know he liked Horus and didn't really get along with Guiliman but beyond that it's a bit vague. For example I suspect he'd get on better with the more natural and less buttoned down Primarchs like Russ and probably wouldn't get on very well with ordered, disciplined Dorn, but I've got no evidence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodian Athiair Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Well all the ones you've named as he likes we've got asmloyalists while he Kahn isnt. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337755 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkhtos Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 On a HH novella (can't remeber which one though) the khan's and Russ's fleets are rushing to help Terra but are ambushed by the Alpha Legion. The Khan Manage to escape and reach Terra in time for the siege but is truly sad and upset for leaving his friend Russ and the Space wolves behind. So one can say that as expected, the White Scars and the Space Wolves were close. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custodian Athiair Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 Yeh but Russ is still loyal in ours, so that isn't much help, although I do appreciate the information. Everything will probably get used at one point. The traitors we're looking at are: The Lion Fulgrim Perturabo Kurze Ferrus Angron Lorgar If there is any information on links between them and the Khan much help :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 On a HH novella (can't remeber which one though) the khan's and Russ's fleets are rushing to help Terra but are ambushed by the Alpha Legion. The Khan Manage to escape and reach Terra in time for the siege but is truly sad and upset for leaving his friend Russ and the Space wolves behind. So one can say that as expected, the White Scars and the Space Wolves were close. Russ, Guilliman and Lorgar hates him. Chris Wraight said this in an interview about Brotherhood of the Storm. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Russ hates the Khan??? well thats stupid. especially as they are noted as friendly in the Collected Visions series. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Russ, Guilliman and Lorgar hates him. Chris Wraight said this in an interview about Brotherhood of the Storm. Russ is "exasperated" by Khan Does that mean they're friends but Russ is tired of putting up with some of his friend's ways ...or does that mean Russ finds him annoying? We don't really know Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3337989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 On a HH novella (can't remeber which one though) the khan's and Russ's fleets are rushing to help Terra but are ambushed by the Alpha Legion. The Khan Manage to escape and reach Terra in time for the siege but is truly sad and upset for leaving his friend Russ and the Space wolves behind. So one can say that as expected, the White Scars and the Space Wolves were close. Russ, Guilliman and Lorgar hates him. Chris Wraight said this in an interview about Brotherhood of the Storm. On a HH novella (can't remeber which one though) the khan's and Russ's fleets are rushing to help Terra but are ambushed by the Alpha Legion. The Khan Manage to escape and reach Terra in time for the siege but is truly sad and upset for leaving his friend Russ and the Space wolves behind. So one can say that as expected, the White Scars and the Space Wolves were close. Russ, Guilliman and Lorgar hates him. Chris Wraight said this in an interview about Brotherhood of the Storm. Thats not what he said. Lorgar sees the Khan as little more then a savage Guilliman does not trust him and Russ is exasparated by him. Neither of these things means that they hate him. Guilliman not trusting him makes sense Guilliman is an empire builder at heart Jagathai is an empire destroyer at heart Two guys with completly different views about empires. A fantasy battle between Guilliman and Jagathai would be very interesting. Jagathai does not care about philosophy its easy to see why Lorgar would see him as little more then a savage. Russ being exasparated by Khan makes the least sense maybe the Wolves penchant for close quarter shieldwall style battles vs the Scars strategy of continous movement and striking at the weakest point of an enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3339601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
yhta Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 just because you have some point in come dosent meant that you are friends, russ actitude could annoy khan, that it way dorn heresy put khan with slaanesh is a cleaver move, because the traitors in dorn heresy workship diferent aspect of the chaos god:the khorne space wolf are more anti magic than the word eater of are mor berzerket, the emperor children are more decadent royalty so the white scar are the tipical tyrant, some one who take your things,beat wour woman and pretty much do wharever he want, that fit very well with slaanesh but like some say here i see khan and the white scar more in the line of night lord, the use chaos insted of being use and are more anti imperium than chaos forces, so if there is a black crusade in your alterne verse i see then more in the line "o look or brother are doing another crusade against the imperium, lets have some fun!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3339822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arachnid99 Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Relations with the Khan The Lion: Have to be good for the point of the story. Commonality in being raised in the wild, hunting beasts. Monastacism of the Lion is a problem but at least they have some common ground. Fulgrim: Difficult to see much in common here apart from opposites attract. Perturabo: Ditto but worse because Perturabo is hardly gregarious. Kurze: Kurze is friendly with no one. It's his thing. Ferrus: The two Primarchs we know the least about. You can take it in any direction you want. We know the Gorgon is grumpy and likes technology but on the other hand he's also a nomad. So maybe something there. Angron: Potential, Khan is said to have defended Angron in the Horus Heresy arguing that those who criticise him (Guilliman et al) shouldn't without "walking his path" (i.e. the Butchers Nails). Lorgar: Lorgar doesn't like war and is never happier than when in a library. Khan likes burning civilisations to the ground. Not going to get on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273334-white-scars-information/#findComment-3339834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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