White Scars Information?

[b1soul]

Why would the White Scars rebel against the imperium? To answer, we must first ask who are the White Scars?

I agree that the White Scars enjoyment of being free and wild is rather in conflict with the Imperium's rigid structure, but the Scars also seem to value loyalty greatly. This loyalty of the WS to their khans, their khans to Jaghatai, Jaghatai to the Emperor is probably underestimated by Horus

 

...and yes Brotherhood of the Storm is very insightful. My thoughts on the novella:

 

 

The WS take great delight in expressing their savage nature, their style

of battle is wild and free. They are truly the "laughing killers",

perhaps finding more joy in battle than any other legion. Their love of

speed goes hand in hand with their love of freedom and open spaces. They

get a thrill out of "lightning warfare", viewing it as the most

beautiful way to make war.

 

 

 

Their way of thinking shows a penchant for poetry and mysticism. They

are less practical than the Wolves. The Scars view war as an expression

of their souls. Staying true to their philosophy and to their own nature

seems to outweigh maximising of efficiency. That is, the Scars would

likely rather fight in their way (the way they enjoy) than in a more

efficient way they don't enjoy.

 

 

 

They respect strong enemies, even xenos (the Scars are quite fond of the

Orks as worthy foes). Shiban even remarked that the mighty Ork warlord

slain by the Khan didn't deserve such a pitiful death.

 

 

 

The book does a great job of highlighting the strengths and weaknesses

of the legion. They're extremely skilled at what they do, but they're

also shown to be rather set in their ways and slow/unwilling to adopt

change. I'm sure the Scars would be competent at other styles of

warfare, but they truly aren't what I'd call a versatile legion. They

have more of a "specialist" mentality, exhibiting a strong inclination

to stick to what they enjoy/are best at.

 

 

 

The book gives us an insight to Jaghatai Khan and his relationship with

the legion. The Khan comes across as a bit haughty and cold, a ruthless,

ambitious warlord in line with the more negative portrayals of Genghis

Khan. He's almost like a cross between Fulgrim and Russ, though I'm sure

Mr. Wraight will cast more light on the Khan's personality in the

future. The Khan is constantly on the move and his warriors view him as

the epitome, the perfect embodiment of all the values they hold dear.

 

 

 

The Khan is described as always at the centre, which, I think, not only

means that the Khan is usually where the fighting is most crucial (the

heart of the storm, so to speak) but also that the Khan is the centre

and his army must follow. The WS don't have stationery bases. They're

supremely mobile and self-sufficient (like historical Mongol warriors).

Thus wherever their Khan is, that is the centre. Here end my ramblings

 

 

 

<p>Khan was also close with Lion as far as I remember. Can anyone confirm this?</p>

 

I believe the Khan is good  friends with Russ, at least in the old lore he was.

 

According to the new fluff spearheaded by Chris Wraight, Russ is "exasperated" by

the Khan. Is this a hostile exasperartion, or an exasperation for the

less agreeable habits of an old friend? We don't know

[godking]

 

Why would the White Scars rebel against the imperium? To answer, we must first ask who are the White Scars?

I agree that the White Scars enjoyment of being free and wild is rather in conflict with the Imperium's rigid structure, but the Scars also seem to value loyalty greatly. This loyalty of the WS to their khans, their khans to Jaghatai, Jaghatai to the Emperor is probably underestimated by Horus

 

...and yes Brotherhood of the Storm is very insightful. My thoughts on the novella:

 

 

The WS take great delight in expressing their savage nature, their style

of battle is wild and free. They are truly the "laughing killers",

perhaps finding more joy in battle than any other legion. Their love of

speed goes hand in hand with their love of freedom and open spaces. They

get a thrill out of "lightning warfare", viewing it as the most

beautiful way to make war.

 

 

 

Their way of thinking shows a penchant for poetry and mysticism. They

are less practical than the Wolves. The Scars view war as an expression

of their souls. Staying true to their philosophy and to their own nature

seems to outweigh maximising of efficiency. That is, the Scars would

likely rather fight in their way (the way they enjoy) than in a more

efficient way they don't enjoy.

 

 

 

They respect strong enemies, even xenos (the Scars are quite fond of the

Orks as worthy foes). Shiban even remarked that the mighty Ork warlord

slain by the Khan didn't deserve such a pitiful death.

 

 

 

The book does a great job of highlighting the strengths and weaknesses

of the legion. They're extremely skilled at what they do, but they're

also shown to be rather set in their ways and slow/unwilling to adopt

change. I'm sure the Scars would be competent at other styles of

warfare, but they truly aren't what I'd call a versatile legion. They

have more of a "specialist" mentality, exhibiting a strong inclination

to stick to what they enjoy/are best at.

 

 

 

The book gives us an insight to Jaghatai Khan and his relationship with

the legion. The Khan comes across as a bit haughty and cold, a ruthless,

ambitious warlord in line with the more negative portrayals of Genghis

Khan. He's almost like a cross between Fulgrim and Russ, though I'm sure

Mr. Wraight will cast more light on the Khan's personality in the

future. The Khan is constantly on the move and his warriors view him as

the epitome, the perfect embodiment of all the values they hold dear.

 

 

 

The Khan is described as always at the centre, which, I think, not only

means that the Khan is usually where the fighting is most crucial (the

heart of the storm, so to speak) but also that the Khan is the centre

and his army must follow. The WS don't have stationery bases. They're

supremely mobile and self-sufficient (like historical Mongol warriors).

Thus wherever their Khan is, that is the centre. Here end my ramblings

 

 

 

><p>Khan was also close with Lion as far as I remember. Can anyone confirm this?</p>

 

I believe the Khan is good  friends with Russ, at least in the old lore he was.

 

According to the new fluff spearheaded by Chris Wraight, Russ is "exasperated" by

the Khan. Is this a hostile exasperartion, or an exasperation for the

less agreeable habits of an old friend? We don't know

 

I think the differences betweeen Russ  and Khan are more  an issue of different philosophies then any real hostility.

 

The White scars tactics of continuous movement and feigned retreats to strike at the opponents weak spots would not mesh well with Space Vikings coming from a shieldwall based military tradition. 

[Custodian Athiair]

This info is great guys.

 

The info on each of the legions/prkmsrch relations is very helpful. However to make the Lion more charismatic and more belivable as an arch traitor we've had to remove the living in the wild as a youngster. But that doesn't mean he doesn't wipe out the beast of caliban so there might be something there.

 

Also the info om the Scars themselves is useful will allow us to flesh their story a bit.

[b1soul]

The White scars tactics of continuous movement and feigned retreats to strike at the opponents weak spots would not mesh well with Space Vikings coming from a shieldwall based military tradition. 

 

Well, we all know who'd win in a battle between a Viking shield wall and Mongol cavalry ;)

[Blacksad]

so Khan and Russ are friends, but Russ is exasperated by the Khan... Russ is a loyalist, Khan isn't in your version of the heresy. Khan doesn 't like civilisations.

 

 

Have the Khan believe that civilisation is the path to Chaos. The more Mankind shelters itself from the outside world, the more Mankind seeks the easy way of living, the more place their is for decadence. Mankind should live as basic as possible, so mankind's inner desires do not evolve beyond survival. Russ does not agree, and vieuws the building of cities and universities as creating bulwarks against Chaos. The argument goes back and forth a while untill the Khan suddenly gets up, and leaves, leaving Russ exasperated. A few weeks later, cities start dissapearing on several worlds, burnt out, smashed to rubble, and left to be reclaimed by nature. No signs are found of who would have done so, but Russ recognises a scent...

[Deus Imperator Vult]

Two thoughts spring to mind when reading this first which is slightly more on topic have you read 'Hunt for voldorius' the space marine battles book? In it the Kassaro Khan duels a demon (ontop of a posessed baneblade if I remember rightly) and the demon taunts him claiming to have been behind a myth on Chigoris and he implies that he was even hunted by the Khan once. You could take that fact and twist it I.E this demon speaks with the Khan and plants some seed of doubt in him even before the Emperor finds him. I'll look up lexicanum for the facts and comment again if I find them.

 

Secondly this is more of a writing based tip. Not saying that you need it but it might make a good frame of reference AND you might be able to someway incorperate some part of it into your project. How familiar with the 'Game of Thrones' universe? Cause the Dothraki are effectively mongels as well BUT they are totally evil I will kill and beat everything in your lands just because they can. They refer to any people who arent them as Sheep men. The idea of somehow repainting the khan as the Primarch version of Khal Drogo would be amazing. Imagine this rant coming from a Primarch

 

'my son will be the stallion who mounts the world [universe] to him [them] I pledge this gift. I will give him the iron chair that his mothers father sat upon. I will give him the seven kingdoms. I, Drogo [Jhagati Khan], will do this. I will take my khalissar [legion] west to where the world [universe] ends we will ride wooden horses [battle barges?] across the black salt water [stars] as no Khal has ever done before. I will kill the men in iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will beat their women take their children as slaves and bring their broken gods back to vaes dothrak. I, Drogo, son or Bharbo swear before the mother of mountains as the stars look down as my witness!'

There's the link if you want to put a face to the words.

[godking]

Two thoughts spring to mind when reading this first which is slightly more on topic have you read 'Hunt for voldorius' the space marine battles book? In it the Kassaro Khan duels a demon (ontop of a posessed baneblade if I remember rightly) and the demon taunts him claiming to have been behind a myth on Chigoris and he implies that he was even hunted by the Khan once. You could take that fact and twist it I.E this demon speaks with the Khan and plants some seed of doubt in him even before the Emperor finds him. I'll look up lexicanum for the facts and comment again if I find them.

 

Secondly this is more of a writing based tip. Not saying that you need it but it might make a good frame of reference AND you might be able to someway incorperate some part of it into your project. How familiar with the 'Game of Thrones' universe? Cause the Dothraki are effectively mongels as well BUT they are totally evil I will kill and beat everything in your lands just because they can. They refer to any people who arent them as Sheep men. The idea of somehow repainting the khan as the Primarch version of Khal Drogo would be amazing. Imagine this rant coming from a Primarch

 

'my son will be the stallion who mounts the world [universe] to him [them] I pledge this gift. I will give him the iron chair that his mothers father sat upon. I will give him the seven kingdoms. I, Drogo [Jhagati Khan], will do this. I will take my khalissar [legion] west to where the world [universe] ends we will ride wooden horses [battle barges?] across the black salt water [stars] as no Khal has ever done before. I will kill the men in iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will beat their women take their children as slaves and bring their broken gods back to vaes dothrak. I, Drogo, son or Bharbo swear before the mother of mountains as the stars look down as my witness!'

There's the link if you want to put a face to the words.

That speech could easily have also been given by Russ.

 

Khal Drogo merely states honestly what more ''civilized'' men also think but would never state openly.

 

That could be the possible reason for Khan turning,

 

Being disgusted with the hypocricy of more ''civilized'' Legions.

[yhta]

 

Two thoughts spring to mind when reading this first which is slightly more on topic have you read 'Hunt for voldorius' the space marine battles book? In it the Kassaro Khan duels a demon (ontop of a posessed baneblade if I remember rightly) and the demon taunts him claiming to have been behind a myth on Chigoris and he implies that he was even hunted by the Khan once. You could take that fact and twist it I.E this demon speaks with the Khan and plants some seed of doubt in him even before the Emperor finds him. I'll look up lexicanum for the facts and comment again if I find them.

 

Secondly this is more of a writing based tip. Not saying that you need it but it might make a good frame of reference AND you might be able to someway incorperate some part of it into your project. How familiar with the 'Game of Thrones' universe? Cause the Dothraki are effectively mongels as well BUT they are totally evil I will kill and beat everything in your lands just because they can. They refer to any people who arent them as Sheep men. The idea of somehow repainting the khan as the Primarch version of Khal Drogo would be amazing. Imagine this rant coming from a Primarch

 

'my son will be the stallion who mounts the world [universe] to him [them] I pledge this gift. I will give him the iron chair that his mothers father sat upon. I will give him the seven kingdoms. I, Drogo [Jhagati Khan], will do this. I will take my khalissar [legion] west to where the world [universe] ends we will ride wooden horses [battle barges?] across the black salt water [stars] as no Khal has ever done before. I will kill the men in iron suits and tear down their stone houses. I will beat their women take their children as slaves and bring their broken gods back to vaes dothrak. I, Drogo, son or Bharbo swear before the mother of mountains as the stars look down as my witness!'

There's the link if you want to put a face to the words.

That speech could easily have also been given by Russ.

 

Khal Drogo merely states honestly what more ''civilized'' men also think but would never state openly.

 

That could be the possible reason for Khan turning,

 

Being disgusted with the hypocricy of more ''civilized'' Legions.

 

well, see how westeros is ruled to pretty much a bunch of sociopath who would make criminal in prision cover in fear....

 

for me khan will look chaos just as and extension, is just a natural way to move not diferent to a horse or a bow, also i think that he will resent the idea of primarch becoming useless after the crusade is done, he is a warlord and conquest is his way, not ruling, i can imagine the imperium pushing back after the whole heresy and he realisng how his legion can ever manting anything, i this way i can see them without deamons and be more like the night lords

[b1soul]

That speech could easily have also been given by Russ.

 

I disagree. At least I don't think that's the case according to how Russ is portrayed in Prospero Burns and Betrayer

 

Russ seems to embody all the positive traits of "barbarianism". Yes, the Wolves are capable of animal savagery but they're completely loyal to the Emperor's vision. They might not prefer to live a civilised lifestyle but they're committed to protecting Imperial civilisation. The Woilves know their role.  

 

As for the Khan, I'm not sure he hates civilisation per se. I think he just hates oppression and corruption. I think he's fine with the Emperor's vision of a perfect Imperium. The 40K Imperium on the other hand might remind him a lot of the Palatine's empire on Chogoris.

 

Overall, I still think Russ and the Khan are loyal to the core. Horus overestimates his hand when he thinks the Khan can easily be turned.

[Onejackshort]

It is stated way back that no one was more loyal to the Emperor and his ideals than the Khan. He was "friends" with Russ as they shared sinilar idioligy and warfare. During the Scouring the Khan sides with Russ against Robuite but then relents and adopts a form of the codex astartes.

 

If you need a link to turn them then use Alpha legion to corupt them or Night Lords as competition as lightning strike style attackers against each other ??

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Arachnid99]

All the Loyalist Primarchs are at various times described as completely committed to the Emperors ideals in the fluff. That's part of being a loyalist, imho the only one who really seems to live it is Dorn. The others all seem to have caveats whether it's the Khan's distaste for order or Guillimans fondness for his private Empire. 

[Custodian Athiair]

Wow I hadnt expected such a hot debate in all honesty. I'm sure when we get sround to properly writing this were gonna use all of it. The deamon. Game of Thrones. Warlord being left behind. All of it.

 

Can I just ask seeing as you've all been so helpful that you all go and check out the Leonic Heresy thread in the Black Library section for all the information on all the other legions, and offer your comments on them too? Hopefully a large chunk of the writimg will be done by the summer :)

[b1soul]

If you need a link to turn them then use Alpha legion to corupt them or Night Lords as competition as lightning strike style attackers against each other

 

The Alpha Legion idea makes a bit more sense to me, though I'm still not too hot on the idea of a whole legion being turned simply because of the machinations of the AL

[Hyaenidae]

As the Heresy grinds on, I believe we will see more and more traitors amongst loyalists (Garro and his crew, Warsmith Dantioch of the Iron Warriors) and loyalists amongst traitors (the Raven who fights with the Night Lords, his name escapes me at the moment), but this will be in ones and twos, mostly. A whole Legion, long after the battle lines are drawn? It would take one hell of an epic event, I think. Even the Alpha Legion would be hard pressed at this point in the Heresy, especially considering the potential for a civil war within their ranks currently.

[malika666]

Little speculation from Laurie Goulding himself, taken from here:

 

 

I've lost a lot of sleep over this... it's a really cool bit of fluff, which can be taken either way!  ;)

So, let's see - the Blood Angels and the White Scars, both end up *just* making it to Terra in order to defend the Imperial Palace from Horus's invasion. And both of them were sent (or kept) on time-wasting missions by the Alpha Legion, in the aftermath of Ullanor - the BAs to Kayvas, and WSs to Chondax. That's some pretty shrewd blocking tactics from Alpharius, which kept two loyal primarchs out of the Heresy for the most part, until each could be dealt with properly (Signus and the later fleet attack at Chondax, respectively).

Except, when you look a bit closer...  :ph43r:

Everyone assumed that the Khan would join with Horus, being a bit of an anti-authority figure who just plain didn't like the Imperium's ways, and also a good personal friend of the Warmaster (see 'Brotherhood of the Storm'). When he was sent to Chondax to clean up the ork overspill from Ullanor, the Alpha Legion apparently then kept them isolated by using the Tenebrae installation to cut off their astropathic communication - a hard-to-reach Legion actually impossible to reach until after Isstvan V.

Then, Omegon undertakes his OWN mission to destroy Tenebrae and put the White Scars back in the game. They receive word of the Dropsite Massacre and are appalled... but then Omegon himself is given the task of attacking the White Scars, since they are now a potential threat to the traitors' plans. OH NOES!  :blink:

So, were the Alpha Legion trying to stop Horus from contacting the White Scars, or were they trying to keep them from helping the Imperium?

Similarly, the Blood Angels were put in a false-flag operation at Kayvas for over a year while the Alpha Legion supposedly attacked the orks elsewhere. They saw no combat until the very end, when suddenly it was announced that everything was fine and they could leave. Horus then sends them on their little jolly jaunt to Signus - they were supposed to be turned to Chaos by the ragefire, but instead they escaped thanks to Meros's sacrifice (re: the Red Angel) and the traitors were denied another ally.

It's great, because we still don't know where each order came from, and whether they were designed to keep the two Legions loyal, or trying to turn them traitor.  ;)