Are Dark Apostles horribly broken?

[Vorenus]

Fellow Servants of the Ruinous Powers:

 

In my opinion, one of the glaring missed opportunities for the new Chaos Space Marines Codex was how GW handled Dark Apostles.  The flavor text for Dark Aposltes is really quite good.  But there is nothing in their rules that actually embodies their flavor text.

 

". . . Dark Apostles are expert at fanning [the] sparks [of resentment] into raging blazes.  When these preachers of terrible truths infiltrate an Imperial World, hidden cults are brought together and long-cultivated alliances are brought to terrible fruition.  It is never long before the bodies of Adeptus Arbites, Judges,  and Aristocrats alike are strung from spire and cable.  Mutants and madmen boil out into the populace, infecting those around them with the touch of Chaos. . . . It is not unheard of for [Dark Apostles] to subvert entire regiments of the Imperial Guard, or even stranded bands of Space Marines, to their cause.  In a galaxy of unrelenting war, rebellion can spread like wildfire; there are records of single Dark Apostles inspiring entire planetary populations to chant damning hymnals until Daemons ran free in the streets. . . . "  C:CSM, p. 35.

 

Danged if that flavor text doesn't get the (ichor) blood pumping!

 

If any of you have played the HORUS HERESY board game by FFG, you'll probably be familiar with the rules for turning/corrupting Imperial Army (the predecessor to the Imperial Guard) legions to Chaos.  That seems to be right in line with the Dark Apostle's job description.  But converting whole units of your opponent's army to pawns of Chaos for the duration of the battle would obviously be too powerful.  That said, something along the lines of some of the Telepathy Psychic Disciplines from the BRB (Dominate or Puppet Master) would also reflect the flavor text above.  In any event, it's a moot point, because the only unique abilities they get are a modest buff to leadership of units within 6", and a re-roll on the Boon of Chaos table.  What gives?

 

Has anyone actually used a Dark Apostle in their army and had actual combat experience with it?  Are they as execrable as I think they are?  Or am I wrong?  What say you, fellow Servants of the Ruinous Powers?

 

v/r

 

--Vorenus

[Lootzer]

I used, purely for fun once.
DA got horribly fisted in forced challenge by random SM sgt. with PF after the oponent saved all my hits (with "amazing" unexchangable AP4 CC weapon) and I failed single Inv save.
Never used it again and never plan to. IMO it's a mistake that it was included in the book the way it is now.

[Brother Ambroz]

Even if they just extended the leadership bubble by 6" more he might be a little more useable. As he is now, he's horrible and pretty much handing your opponent a KP or Slay the Warlord if he's your only HQ. Sad really, he could've been much better. Just like our warpsmiths, GW seems to have wanted us to have spiky versions of the loyalist chaplain/techmarine except they forgot to give us options equal to them (bikes, jumppacks, steeds and TDA).

[Sception]

Not really worth bothering with.  Lord already grants fearless, most of our stuff can already by hatred against most enemies for less than the cost of an apostle, the leadership bubble's too short to do more than keep a cultist screen in line and any IC can do that by simply joining the cultist squad instead of whichever unit you're screening behind them.  His stats and equipment is decidedly lackluster for a melee support HQ, especially one that's forced into challenges by the extremely annoying Champions of Chaos rule.

 

The Dark Apostle is in all ways inferior to our other HQ options.  Even the Warpsmith, underwhelming as it is, has some interesting things to contribute.  The Sorcerer and Lord do the apostle's job way, way better.

[totgeboren]

I used one a few times, and yeah, they suck. Give a Lord a power weapon, and a Sigil and they cost the same. Depending on warlord trait, you could also get Hatred vs everything (which is really good actually) or the reroll-gifts ability.

 

But on the other hand, I did use one leading a huge squad of cultists, and having one more huge squad of cultists nearby. The Ld-buff is nice, and they worked somewhat ok against hordes of little nids (but then again everything works great against hordes of little nids).

On the other hand it's simply better to use IG blob squads and a Commissar Lord if you want brave hordes.

 

So yeah, even though I'm a hardcore WB fan, my Dark Apostle tend to stay home in the temples, seeking the favour of the Gods. And funnily, my success rate has gone up since I relegated him to this duty, which must mean he does a great job praying at home!

[derpasaurus]

^
BUY LONG WAR BONDS

[AekoldHelbrass]

I've used him once. Khârn + DA + blob of cultists. Pretty cruel on charge, you have another HQ to sacrifice in challenges (cultists champion will not survive for long) and Khârn gets boon rerolls. It pretty much made cultists a deathstar. But I think it's one time only trick, next time opponent will just shoot cultists down.

[Vorenus]

I suppose a Dark Apostle with a Mark of Nurgle joined to a unit of 35 Nurgle cultists camped on an objective would be difficult to move.

 

Ultimately, though, the Dark Apostle just seems incredibly lackluster--and does not live up to its awesome flavor text.  I think I will take totgeboren's advice and leave the Dark Apostle(s) to lead the war band in its profane rites back at the fane.

 

Shame, though--I really do like that flavor text. I will steal it and use it in my ongoing FFG WH40K RPGs (Dark Heresy, Deathwatch, Rogue Trader, etc.).

 

Well, thanks for all your posts and comments.  I have now finalized my list for my Chaos war band, the Fell Brethren--this question about Dark Apostles was basically my last question.

 

v/r

 

--Vorenus

[Azekai]

Marked cultists are pretty bad, though. Now that Epi builds have gone the way of the dodo, there is no reason to even Nurgle mark them. Marks are not costed efficiently compared to more cultists. Don't worry about fancy upgrades for the cannon fodder, just get more bodies on the field.

[Urauloth]

The apostle is basically a detriment to your own army whatever you do with him; a lord or sorcerer is so much better and if you've wasted an HQ slot on the apostle you're giving up something really valuable. So yes, he is horribly broken, in the sense that he doesn't work. It's sad, because I'm working on a warband of Word Bearers and I'd love to include this guy for fluff reasons but he's really, really awful.

[the jeske]

well we are going to have to wait 2-3 editions to get apostols in elite slots just like some loyalists .

[minigun762]

They would've been better as an upgrade option for Cultists.

[Hellios]

Dark Apostle and sorcerer should have been upgrades for lords and Lieutenants/Exalted Champions (Lord style character with sorcerer stats... AKA cheap HQ)... Warp Smith could possibly have been rolled into that as well.  

[zyl-]

I think if it would have been given a rule like "any infantry with daemon rule counts as scoring" it would have seen it's uses even more in fun games. Even with a rule like that, who would really take posessed or warp talons? Scoring obliterators.. maybe. On the same page, if the warpsmith would have moved posessed vehicles out of the heavy slots, it would have made a use for him.

[Ammonius]

methodically negative

Well, as long as no one buys the model and no one converts one up and proudly posts it, in 7th edition they will be death on two legs.

/methodically negative

[zyl-]

methodically negative

Well, as long as no one buys the model and no one converts one up and proudly posts it, in 7th edition they will be death on two legs.

/methodically negative

truer words are hard to find

[Sception]

Do we really believe that?  Nobody much bought or cared for possessed in 3.0 or 3.5, and they were garbage in 4.0.  Nobody much liked them in 4e or 5e, and now they're still garbage in 6e.  Maybe people bought them for conversion fodder, and GW got confused?

 

But then what about Thousand Sons?  Widely regarded as the worst of the 4e codeces' cult units by a mile, and Kelly nerfed them for the 6e book.  Not even like Berzerkers, where they were ok before, and were ported over without thought, and just happen to be somewhere between lackluster and terrible due to changes in the environment.  No, Kelly looked at Sons, and was like "yup, nobody runs these, better make them even more terrible".

 

Don't apostles have expensive new finecast models for sale?  Aren't they the cool new thing?  Aren't people always accusing GW of making the cool new thing with an expensive new model way better than the old stuff that people already have?  And yet apostles are miles behind lords, sorcerers, and princes in tabletop effectiveness.

 

 

No.  No, I don't think we're looking at deliberate, malicious design here.  And I don't think we can expect GW to 'fix' them in response to their unpopularity.  Because I don't think the GW designers actually know what 'good' is in their own game, and they certainly don't have the kind of robust testing they'd need to find out.  So instead we get a crapshoot.

[the jeske]

 

Don't apostles have expensive new finecast models for sale?  Aren't

they the cool new thing?  Aren't people always accusing GW of making the

cool new thing with an expensive new model way better than the old

stuff that people already have?  And yet apostles are miles behind

lords, sorcerers, and princes in tabletop effectiveness.

only for the good armies. look at chaos , this is the second codex we get which is as one dimensional as it gets . And then look at DA . meq too , but the builds are drasticly different[ah and for 1 chapter/legion organisastion] and the different is not "oh I'll load up on zerkers and say it is fun to play  ,pure melee in 6th ed".

 

 

 

 

Because I don't think the GW designers actually know what 'good' is in

their own game, and they certainly don't have the kind of robust testing

they'd need to find out.

Good is when you roll a dice . That is what good is for GW. not fluff , not playability , not number of builds ,it is  the dice and random aspects is the good thing in warhammer that is good. Sucks for everyone else living in the real world , but so is life.

[DavidKits]

In the long run of all of you guys and your horror stories i'm... kinda shocked actually. I play a full on Word Bearers Warband in rl at my local gaming store and I like to play with fun armies i've never been one for building hard core armies and as I enjoy my fluff lists I use my Apostle quite regularly and... in all reguards he has done flat out amazing, I even played one game where he answered a challenge from Khârn the Betrayer and beat the betrayers face in somehow... funny enough got a 4 on the d3+1 boon roles and ended up with hatred, +1 attack, Meteroic charge and the last one was nothing :P was hoping to get +1 ws and just say Khârn was giving him a sparing/training match to make him better before leaving XD

 

 I don't know why people say he can't switch out his weapon I thought just taking a deamon weapon DID replace one and as far as I last look he can take a Chaos Artefact(sp) and I have on numerous Occasions given him the Black Mace threw him in a squad and watched him go almost never disappointing me more so when i get stuck in with a unit that all ahve CCW weapons ontop of their other gear (yes i pay for it because again i want too and its fun!) and then seeing my opponents reaction to seeing the apostle give the whole squad re-rolls to hit, even after he has charged me! *chuckles* makes me smirk every time.

 

 Normally how I lay my guy out is just Mark of Tzeentch, Gift of Mutation (its fluffy so i put it on all my sarges and heroes :P meh) and then give him a deamon weapon when i feel like it. sometimes such as the game with Khârn i just left him base.

 

  I understand just about all of you guys dislike this guy and all but I love him and even though my Sorcerer's and Lords and all that yes I will admit they can do more in the long run then my Apostle I still greatly enjoy bringing him out and i AM working on one of the fire cast models to update the look of my Apostle a little from my old converted one (who still gets alot of love mind ya!)

 

 my last fun game with my Apostle i hope i did it right if not i kinda feel bad for my opponent with how it turned out as I ran a 15 man unit of chaos marines up the table, I have given them a Plasmagun, flamer, sarge with power sword, gift, M-bombs (just in case weapon after all) and then gave the whole unit the 2 point CCW layout.  this unit was lead by my Apostle that i just went all out on. literally I gave him the Black mace, MoTzeentch, Ichor Blood, Gift, and Dimensional Key if i remember again i hope i wasn't breaking rules as far as i could i wasn't but anyway. the whole unit ran up the table towards his Orks and man did they have a ball... turn 3 they got into combat i only had half the squad left with the Apostle still in it charge a unit of like 25 boys with a Nob with Claw and a Warphead. my apostle had gotten instant death with his gift my sarge got +1 attack so i challenged with my apostle he just smoked the Nob with claw as my opponent wanted to try and save his Warphead (was hoping for the teleport ability next turn to save the unit) and after all the attacks were over I had taken out like 10 orks from all my attacks (poor i know) and taken out like 6 more with the toughness tests caused by the mace AND another 2 after that first round just from the Dimensional Key turning on forcing Dangerous terrian tests everytime he moved XD oh it was great the unit wiped all the boys and any other boy unit that tried to get close i just blasted to bits that game with the rest of my units and well in the end it ... um ended badly for him.

 

if i remember right at the end (turn 4 he called it) he had 2 loots running off the table and a unit of 20 greticin(sp) with a Mek with Shock attack gun that was about to be jumped by my Khorne Terminators that finally arrived turn 4 and i mean 'jumped' by he let me test out the shooting after the game ended to see what would happen and as I had a heavy flamer, 2 combi flamers in the squad and given he was in a multiple levels of some ruins made it I could shoot all 3... well i think the termintors believed they were smelling a nice BBQ after my try out as they wiped over half the squad in one volley. I ended the game with just about my whole army still on the table ^.^;;; my only real major 'damage' was a helbrute being immbolised and having a temper tantrum half way up the table and having by the end 3 marines and my apostle in my squad that had run up the middle of the table.

 

 so for me in my personal opinion he may not be the best option out there but the guy always brings a smile to at least MY face when i use him so I will continue to use the Apostle as i wish when i want to :)

 

 David K.

[Iron_Within]

David, you've just said pretty much exactly what people have been mocking GW about. I've not tried the DA, on paper I think he might be OK if you use the Ld bubbled to best effect (though, I think the only way that's possible is with multiple blobs of cultists in 6" of the DA, which I think IG Manticore gunners would laugh like maniacs at).

 

The DA from what I've seen can only really be used in Deathstar situations. A competent local Nurgle player in my group run 3 Mutilators, a DA and Typhus in a Land Raider which was all but unstoppable in the games played (12 attacks rerolling hits and wounds +Typhus and DA is pretty nasty). Against IG it pretty much took them apart single handed

[Brother Ambroz]

The problem with that is we don't really do deathstars very well. If the DA had options to use bikes, steeds or even jumppacks then he'd be a bit better because then we could throw him in with our other units but unfortunately. All you're doing with a DA is helping out your enemy. Anything the DA does could be done better with a lord, sorceror or Khârn (if you wanted hatred).

 

Edit: You just must've been really really lucky fighting Khârn too because normally he'd rip an apostle to pieces without much effort.

[the jeske]

Against IG it pretty much took them apart single handed

any IG army that lets an chaos LR anywhere near charging distances must have been very unlucky with rolling.

 

 

 

my last fun game with my Apostle i hope i did it right if not i kinda

feel bad for my opponent with how it turned out as I ran a 15 man unit

of chaos marines up the table, I have given them a Plasmagun, flamer,

sarge with power sword, gift, M-bombs (just in case weapon after all)

and then gave the whole unit the 2 point CCW layout.  this unit was lead

by my Apostle that i just went all out on. literally I gave him the

Black mace, MoTzeentch, Ichor Blood, Gift, and Dimensional Key if i

remember again i hope i wasn't breaking rules as far as i could i wasn't

but anyway. the whole unit ran up the table towards his Orks and man

did they have a ball... turn 3 they got into combat i only had half the

squad left with the Apostle still in it charge a unit of like 25 boys

with a Nob with Claw and a Warphead.

mind blown.

[DavidKits]

@tanith: oh ya i was quite lucky with that round each time the guy rolled to attack he had such horrible rolls... missed 3 times at the lease and i kept making my 3+ invul save before giving Khârn a bonk on the head with a power maul... a few full turns later of us wailing on each other and Khârn went down... the next time we played the same layout happend and on the second turn of going at it Khârn just utterly managled my Apostle *laughs* i had to make like 5 invul saves i think it was and i failed 4 of em though in that game alot of people in the store got in watching it to see how it would end and after Khârn just ripped my apostle head off he was punished i guess as he was turned into a Spawn no joke *shrugs* oh well.

@ Jeske: ya i know it was a very odd turn out that I won how i did. the guy had some really bad rolls sadly :/ i mean he could have made the charge on my apostles unit and ate em up but he failed the charge (was an 8 inch charge over some barricades and i only killed 1 ork due to overwatch ^.^; and afterwards I just hopped over em stood an inch away and decided to let luck have its way and just charged the unit didn't even shoot at it, made a point to let the rest of my army fire at everything else as i wanted to see how it would end! lost a guy on the way in if i remember but over all just ripped the Orks apart... oh and the Warphead was only there because his other unit got blown away on the previous turn so he hopped him over in over to try and keep him alive longer but he ended up at the very very back of the unit so never really got to help and as i said when i issued my challenge the ork player had the nob with claw accept as he wanted to keep the Warphead alive as long as possible, he wanted the +1 attack spell but instead got the free waaagh, rerolled it and got the waagh again which he told me was completely useless for the squad as they were in combat already so i just took his word for it. his Warphead just rolled badly all game... i mean first spell he used rolled 1s twice, second time he rolled 4s i think it was twice i can't remember what that one does and then the last time he tried before the unit got destroyed with the warphead he rolled 6s twice. guess i just got lucky ^.^;;; I did tell him that next time he plays with that unit though try not to spread the whole squad out so much he had em so spread out that when we did all the 3 inch pile in not many of his guys actually got in to fight me :/

[Agent Purple]

Jeske's mind is blown because the highlighted/underlined stuff is so horribly, horribly bad that you would only expect to see this stuff in either a noob fight (no offense) or a WD batrep where they are trying to forge a narrative rather than forge an effective army - not as evidence of the usefulness of a dark apostle.

 

I'm also not sure if you can have the dimensional key on the same model as a mace. You are generally only allowed 1 artifact per model, although I'm not sure if the key's note saying no weapon is exhanged would alter this caveat.

 

The question you have to ask yourself regarding the dark apostle is this: in every situation that you've used him,how have his unique abilities (boon re-roll, zealot, LD bubble) given you an edge that contributed to your win? From most of your posts, it looks like he is mainly used as a beatstick. Is the tradeoff of having worse options and stats than a lord worth gaining a small LD10 bubble (when he makes his own unit fearless anyways), and re-rolls on the charge? Probably not.  Ergo, lord is more effective in most places. Lord also unlocks cult troops.

 

But who knows, maybe with your luck you'll find out that dark apostle is really good at beating up mandrakes and pyrovores.

[the jeske]

you know it is not even odd or that this is bad or something , it is like a different game.