Are Dark Apostles horribly broken?

[DavidKits]

@Agent: for the use of having my apostle he does help me with the re-roll boons as well. being able to re-roll spawn, deamon prince and any one more I choose (normally I pic a roll of one 1) has helped me a couple of times with my gift of mutation rolls. such as in one game where I originally rolled up hatred on my apostle re-rolled it and got +1 WS. I know of a few people around here in my local area who every time they play they just ignore the boon chart as they hate it but I make use of it ever game as I feel as a word bearers army it fits! now as for other things his bubble I always keep forgetting about so I never have put it to use short of bumping up the leadership of his own squad which in a way is helpful. I play against a couple of guys who like to use the Psi-power Psychic Scream by making my unit Ld 10 even if yes they are fearless reduces greatly the number of wounds that squad could suffer from that power.

zealot rule always is nice for me so far in games, making my guys fearless I don't mind running em up and getting em in the middle of the fight as I know they won't go anywhere until either a. the apostle bites it, or b. the whole unit is wiped out and as I tend to go with the 3+ invul apostle killing him is much harder then my opponents would wish. and there have been times where his giving me the re-rolls in combat from hatred have helped a great deal where I have been charged a couple of times with that unit and end up doing more damage then the guy charging me just because of my rerolls. so to answer your question has the abilities my apostle has given me an edge in every game I've used him... well so far in many of the games he has believe it or not. which is why I always enjoy bringing him out he does the job and that's ok with me. I understand where you mean where a chaos lord or a Sorcerer Lord(will always call them this) can do more and be more points effective and all and I will still use my Chaos Lord and Sorcerer lord as well just when I feel like I want to play with my Apostle I'll still bring him out happily.

on the matter of all the things Jeske highlighted being horribly bad... o.O could you send me a note explaining me why I just am curious why you feel all those items range between bad and horribly bad or worse. and I feel you or Jeske maybe able to satisfy that curiosity. I thought Mark of Tzeentch on someone with a 4+ invul turning it into a 3+ was a good thing at the very least but *shrugs* I like to hear your take if you don't mind.

@ Jeske: I suppose you got a point there, I know the Ork player I was up against is pretty new to the games which is why I gave him a few pointers to help here or there but he likes how he plays he likes what he has and I sure am one who isn't gonna argue with him because he is like me we both enjoy a good game and a good laugh while we play and have fun. *shrugs* though I admit trying to think of how to take out his 6 man mega nob squad with a warboss in mega armour and Mad Doc is getting to me. I think I know how to do it I believe I have the models and options to do it just haven't taken em on yet to see how that fight would go. I was fully expecting to engage them in the game I did against him where my apostle did so well but he said he didn't want to bring em as he wanted to try something else and joked that as I was the vet player between them I would make him feel bad by butchering the unit to a man in a turn oh well.

[Agent Purple]

Motz on the apostle isn't a bad choice. It's rather natural given that he has a sigil.

 

What is mind blowing is that you invested so many points (Including dimensional key and ichor blood - ichor blood isn't very effective, dimensional key generally dosen't help much since you can't DS accurately until you kill someone in melee, which is likely after you have made all your rolls), plus mace, into a 2 wound character. Even with a 3++, it's not difficult to knock 2 wounds past a 3+ save. Lord with mace gets more attacks and is more survivable, and hits at higher WS, and can buy a 3+ save if you want it as well.  Lord also, critically, hits at I5, so he swings before most marine opponents, which adds to his survivability against grunt squads.

 

Remember that a lord makes his unit fearless as well, since he has that USR.  Boon re-roll is nice and hatred from zealot is nice, but is it worth giving up the extra offensive and defensive abilities of the lord? Personally, I don't think so.

 

Plasma / flamer aren't bad on their own either, but combining them in the same unit is. This is because plasma tends to want to rapid fire (can't melee after) and stay at range, while flamer wants to move in, flame, and charge.  The two weapons have conflicting roles, so conventional wisdom would say that its better to either take 2x plasma or 2x flamer.  Flamers are also generally difficult to get the best use out of in large foot squads, since the enemy can reliably get into move+charge range before you will have them in template range. So flamers are best on fast moving units or units in transports.  Sure flamers can overwatch, but with only 1 flamer, it probably isn't going to make that much of a difference. Whereas a squad with a large number of flamers becomes a painful charge for horde units.

 

Warphead is really random and eats up a slot that could be used by  KFF mekboy or warboss, both of which are generally considered more useful. Warphead is generally seen in pairs with a dakkajet spam army to try and maximze the dakkajet's WAAAAGH buff.  Warphead is also a lot of points for what he does compared to some of the more recent psykers out there.

[DavidKits]

*nods and rubs chin* fair enough thank you for all the info. I can explain all my choices based on the info you gave me but it does give me a few things to ponder over in the future :) so despite what I am about to say thanks for the info! I till ponder it over for future games :) now to my reasons!

 

 1. I invested so many points in the Apostle as I did for a few reasons the big one being just wanting to try things out. I put both the Key and the Mace on my Apostle to try and compound their abilities a little and cause more damage if only a little. as the Key after I kill a guy also makes everything around the unit within 12 inches difficult and dangerous, now normally this isn't much but as I was against Orks who only have a 6+ save I figured the chance to get in an extra kill here or there would be cool and may help me once and a while (killing an Ork with a Rokkit when he walked forward into the bubble is what I call a lucky but useful kill even if the guy only hits on 5s and 6s.)

 

 also I took the key because I knew that I was planning to keep a unit of Terminators in reserve to deep strike em and hopefully really hopefully would get to drop them in the back rank behind the Mek with SAG and his spam blob of Gretchin(sp)... considering that they only tried to appear once Mishapped(sp) ((darn them battle wagons and a 12 inch drift *laughs*)) but instead went back in reserve as it was as my Apostle the same turn beat someone's face in I was quite glad as then I never worried about doing anywhere when I arrived next!

 

2. the Ichor blood was just there because meh *shrugs* I had the extra points and nothing to spend it on. I suppose I could have tried to fit it somewhere else but what the hey I thought against works with the AP value of the attack if I day I might take the guy who killed my apostle down with me *shrugs*

 

3. why I took the mace well I know the mace was good against horde armies and I was expecting a HORDE army. which I wasn't far off with how many boys he dropped on the table. and even if I was only I4 I still was going faster then pretty much everything in his army so I figured it didn't matter it just gave me a boost in horde killing power and at the same bonus with me being WS 5 I was a higher WS then most of his army so I was hitting on 3s anyway no point in having the ws6 when he didn't have a warboss :P

   and I rather enjoyed the whole "oh look your guy went splat... alright now take a dangerous terrain to move 3 inches towards me before you fight me... alright take another dangerous now that combat is over to move towards me again, alright then passed your leadership? great now lastly take a toughness for everyone *measures 3 inches* that far away from me, more orks did... woot bonus points!"

 

 4. I know the lord gives me fearless but he didn't give me the rerolls that I thought maybe helpful and considering that I rolled a 2 on the warlord chart I liked getting the hatred bonus to the whole unit :3 that and I was playing a more themed word bearers as I do so ya Apostle was in for that round I mean I could have taken my Lord with L-claw, power fist sigils etc etc but *shrugs* and by having the apostle in the unit it saved me from having a 1 on my first boon roll :3

 

 5. the plasma flamer mix... ya that was odd ^.^;; I much more normally run a melta and flamer in a squad but then I tend to use a 10 man in a rhino,  more often then not the Flamer tends to hide mid to back of the unit and when I get charged throw out some fire to slow down a unit sometimes it works (in this case made a 6 inch charge an 8 inch one over barricades... yay for killing 1 ork and my opponent spreading out SOOOO much) or if i'm lucky get a shot off or something before my charge after the front of the squad disappears due to, no doubt bloody ends by someone's gun. The Plasma gunner was there for the most part to take pot shots where he could I guess against trucks or side armour of a battle wagon. when I look back on the game I most likely didn't even need it considering the near horde of Lascannons I had sitting on the table... armour wasn't a worry to me considering he only had really 4 vehicles and 3 of them exploded in just as many turns and the last was left immobile to flail like an idiot and never get to fight... I guess I also looked at it as being a weapon of just in case a dakkajet showed up to give me a bit more punch with that snap shot at the air but as he told me only after we started that there wasn't a Dakkajet I could only be left with snapping my fingers and saying 'aww nuts" though with my lascannon horde I think even a Dakkajet would find my snap firing AA frightful ... more so if they hit. though I also mixed the weapons because um... *pokes fingers* I really only own 1 normal chaos marine with a plasma gun XD and I've been trying to fit him here or there :P my only other plasma gun guys are either combi plas terminators or the ones carried by my raptors.

 

 6. now onto the Warphead, why he was there from what I know of my opponent it was simply for this reason. "I finished building him last night and I really want to play a game with him." I imagine the mek with custom and a Warboss would be a lot better, and I know he at least has a Warboss just I also know he doesn't have a mek with the Force field, again his still pretty brand new to the game so his only HQs that I know he owns are. Mad Doc Grotsnik(sp), Warboss In mega armour, Mek with Shock Attack Gun, Warphead and I do believe that's it. he loves his Mek with Shock attack gun even if its a hit or miss, so if he has options on who leads his army he will always either take that guy and one other HQ or go with the idea I gave him of Mad Doc, Warboss and Meganobs. that's all I know on that regard *shrugs*

 

 hopefully this explains a little... as I said I never admit I made good choices just ones on the fly and I had fun so did my opponent and that matters a great deal to me :) so ya, I'm still gonna take my Apostle when I want too so I say give him a chance once and a while even if only for fun games I enjoy em you may too is all I say.

[Nemesor]

Heh, I took a Warphead for lulz once. I love the random element they can introduce. More people need to play stuff that's fun. Don't be so concerned about winning, have a laugh. Don't play people if you think they aren't fun to play against because they're cheesemongering buggers who just want victory at any cost. You might have a smaller pool of opponents to begin with, but eventually any of the ones with brains will get the message.

 

I plan on converting up a Dark Apostle at some point. Yes, objectively he is quite bad, but some of his abilities are very fluffy and fun. And I want to have fun playing 40k. I am not interested in merely ending in victory.

 

The reason balance and so on is so screwy in 40k is because GW designs the game thinking players will go into it with a completely different mindset to what many of them do nowadays. Everyone feeling a little insecure - because of that one guy bragging about how much he wins and how they all suck - drove everyone to the current state of wargaming community.

[Slayer le Boucher]

They should had made them Elites choices 0-3 per slot, or like in DA codex, a HQ choice that doens't take a HQ slot.

 

Add bikes, Jumpacks , TDA and Mounts in their options, and they are interessting, not awesome, but better.

 

Dark Apostle should give Zealous to all units in a 6" bubble of him...

[Agent Purple]

Heh, I took a Warphead for lulz once. I love the random element they can introduce. More people need to play stuff that's fun. Don't be so concerned about winning, have a laugh. Don't play people if you think they aren't fun to play against because they're cheesemongering buggers who just want victory at any cost. You might have a smaller pool of opponents to begin with, but eventually any of the ones with brains will get the message.

 

I plan on converting up a Dark Apostle at some point. Yes, objectively he is quite bad, but some of his abilities are very fluffy and fun. And I want to have fun playing 40k. I am not interested in merely ending in victory.

 

The reason balance and so on is so screwy in 40k is because GW designs the game thinking players will go into it with a completely different mindset to what many of them do nowadays. Everyone feeling a little insecure - because of that one guy bragging about how much he wins and how they all suck - drove everyone to the current state of wargaming community.

 

So you think people should intentionally handicap themselves so you have a better chance to win allowing you to knowingly select crappy options?  Insulting people who take interest in building an effective army (which may be fun for them) by calling them cheesemongers with 'no brain' just makes you sound like a hobby tool (and one of the useless ones, like the citadel hobby vice). If it's not fun for you to play against someone, then don't play them.  It is not necessarly to call your fellow hobbyists brainless cheesewads when doing so because they can building more effective army lists than you.

 

Fun is subjective. People interested in playing a competitive wargame, rather than a beer and chips time kill, are unlikely to find random elements that remove or diminish player control on the outcome of the game as 'fun'. On the list building side, Who's to say a certain playing doesn't find playing a khorne axe lord on bike more 'fun' than gimpy chaos pope? Fun and good units do not have to be mutually exclusive.

 

If people don't approach the game with GW's 'vision' in mind, maybe there is a problem with GW's 'vision.' GW is definitely at fault for game balance. They clearly make certain units either obviously sup par (internally or externally) by making similar/identically rolled/equiped units less efficient for the points, making another unit fill a units only role better, or simply by making units who do not fill a useful role in that army.

 

Look at dark apostle. What was GW even thinking when they made this entry? Boon re-roll and zealot are nice, but the majority of these buffs only work in melee. This means the natural assignment for the model, in order for him to fill his intended role, is in a dedicated melee unit (like bikes, spawn, or the more crappy raptors or talons). Unfortunately, GW makes the laughable decision to not allow him to take any steeds, bike, or jump pack upgrade so that he cannot go with these units - its like they are actively trying to make this unit as useless as possible.  His main buff, hatred, is also less attractive due to VOTLW upgrade, which almost every unit has access to, and grants hatred against one of the most commonly encountered armies anyways.  LD10 bubble is also largely pointless outside of mass cultist builds due to troops either being fearless (cult), or having LD10 (VOTLW champions) in the army anyways.  This ability can also handicap you if someone reduces his leadership. Dark apostle also has poor melee ability, due to being forced to select power maul with no access to melee armoury for sword or axe off-hand, and having generally poor stats (2A I4) for melee use. This is unfortunate given that his main purpose is melee buff (so good personal melee ability would mesh well).

 

Dark apostle is overpriced. His melee abilities are lacklustre, and conflictingly, his buff only works in melee and he is denied access to any items which would help him get into melee. His melee buff also only works in the first round of melee, limiting its effect. His price tag compared to other budget options (naked sorc, minimal equipment lord) also prevents him from becoming a go-to budget HQ selection, like marine chaplains were in 3rd/4th edition. 

 

Externally, Look at a DA librarian, on the other hand. For cheaper, DA can get a librarian with powerfield that not only provides fearless and re-rolls in both shooting and melee every round, also buffs the save of nearby troops, and has a force weapon making his melee capabilities better. His buffs also work the entire game and not only for 1 round after melee begins. BA SHP is a substantially better buff character (if more squishy) for cheaper, and again, provides a buff that works the for the whole game.

 

Internally look at sorceror, who for similar points can get lvl2 and a sigil, plus access to bikes/jump packs making him more useful in both melee (force weapon) and as a buff character. Lord for similar points provides substantially better melee and also has the fearless buff.

 

Dark apostle is an excellent example of Fail Kelly's poor rules design in the blowdex. What role could he have possibly intended the apostle to fill? It is an obvious copy-pasta from codex:space marines in what was probably an attempt to appease wordbearers players after shafting them (and everyone else) on rules to differentiate the legions (or warband styles, take your pick).  Dark apostle is clearly a lazy port - not a unit designed to assist the army overcome weaknesses or add depth to the line-up in any meaningful way.  How is this good game design?

 

Dark apostle should have been an upgrade to the lord (like necron Phaeron) that granted zealot. Then you would have a melee buff on a good melee character with the capability to buff a dedicated melee unit - which would actually be useful.

 

6" zealot or fearless bubble would also have made him useful. No ATSKNF is a huge drawback for generic CSMs, and apostle might have been an attractive choice of remedying this in a fundivided force.

 

Dark apostle isn't ignored because people don't build army lists to have fun. Dark apostle is ignored because kelly didn't give any reason to select him as part of your army.  But I guess GW admits to not even trying to balance their rules (and apostle is clear evidence of this). I guess this is what you have to live with when you play 40k.  Personally, I don't see why making nice models has to conflict with making good rules to go with them.

[zyl-]

Heh, I took a Warphead for lulz once. I love the random element they can introduce. More people need to play stuff that's fun. Don't be so concerned about winning, have a laugh. Don't play people if you think they aren't fun to play against because they're cheesemongering buggers who just want victory at any cost. You might have a smaller pool of opponents to begin with, but eventually any of the ones with brains will get the message.

 

I plan on converting up a Dark Apostle at some point. Yes, objectively he is quite bad, but some of his abilities are very fluffy and fun. And I want to have fun playing 40k. I am not interested in merely ending in victory.

 

The reason balance and so on is so screwy in 40k is because GW designs the game thinking players will go into it with a completely different mindset to what many of them do nowadays. Everyone feeling a little insecure - because of that one guy bragging about how much he wins and how they all suck - drove everyone to the current state of wargaming community.

Funny how my game is moving exactly the opposite way. I have so many wins that people don't like to play me anymore. So I build stupid armies.. and still win. It's not an issue of WAAC for me at all, but I'm a somewhat intelligent human, which seems overwhelmingly advantageous in this game. I'm honestly to the point where I'm not sure how to realate to many of the people I play with because they (you) think I'm teh cheese. And I don't tell people they suck.

 

So my question to you is this: what should I do to make the game fun for you? I can't just empty my head of a practical understanding of how the game works.

[totgeboren]

If only the Dark Apostle gave Zealot and Preferred Enemy to all friendlys within 6", he could be worth the points and the HQ slot, even if he would still be somewhat sub-par compared to both the Lord and the Sorcerer.

A squishy buffer that wont do much damage on his own, but the amount of buffs he brings would definitely make him worth considering.

[Ammonius]

 

Heh, I took a Warphead for lulz once. I love the random element they can introduce. More people need to play stuff that's fun. Don't be so concerned about winning, have a laugh. Don't play people if you think they aren't fun to play against because they're cheesemongering buggers who just want victory at any cost. You might have a smaller pool of opponents to begin with, but eventually any of the ones with brains will get the message.

 

I plan on converting up a Dark Apostle at some point. Yes, objectively he is quite bad, but some of his abilities are very fluffy and fun. And I want to have fun playing 40k. I am not interested in merely ending in victory.

 

The reason balance and so on is so screwy in 40k is because GW designs the game thinking players will go into it with a completely different mindset to what many of them do nowadays. Everyone feeling a little insecure - because of that one guy bragging about how much he wins and how they all suck - drove everyone to the current state of wargaming community.

Funny how my game is moving exactly the opposite way. I have so many wins that people don't like to play me anymore. So I build stupid armies.. and still win. It's not an issue of WAAC for me at all, but I'm a somewhat intelligent human, which seems overwhelmingly advantageous in this game. I'm honestly to the point where I'm not sure how to realate to many of the people I play with because they (you) think I'm teh cheese. And I don't tell people they suck.

 

So my question to you is this: what should I do to make the game fun for you? I can't just empty my head of a practical understanding of how the game works.

Good to hear! 

How would you feel about posting (in a new thread if it doesn't have a Dark Apostle) the army list that got you the wins and a sketch of what the opponents that you have defeated off the table run?

 

I am seeing more Vendetta and Executioner spam locally, and having those lascannons show up in my backfield is making me edge towards a 100+ cultist list, which might lead to me putting a Dark Apostle (conversion model, not buying the GW one) on the table (ha! on topic after all!)

[zyl-]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/269715-ccsm-battle-reports/

This thread has an armor list I was running. No DA, but I did have a warpsmith.

[Spaz431]

In response to many players critiques of the DA, I have found him useful. MOT is probably best for him due to becoming +3++ (IMO). I have been using him in an escalating kill teams/warbands campaign at the world of battle. He has died twice, once to grey knights grand master (like he had a chance) and to an inquisitor who force weaponed him (though I did double toughness the inquisitor.) on these smaller scales I have been pleased with him. In larger games I run him with my lord, for the re-roll. Fluff wise he is under-rated. He should give some better benefit (furious charge to cultists (fervor) or something to make him a touch more useful.))

[Nemesor]

@Agent Purple & zyl-

 

I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with playing to win. I'm suggesting that not everybody does and if it's not what you enjoy about playing you shouldn't feel pressured to play that way by those who do. I didn't use the term cheesemongering buggers as a blanket term for all tourney-type players, I used it as a tongue-in-cheek way to refer to 'that guy' that exists in every area somewhere. I was saying that people should play how they want, with other people who will play on the same terms. I never said anyone was brainless, I never insulted any actual people (though I notice you did not hesitate to insult me based on your incorrect interpretation of my post). I am simply advising that playing for more abstract reasons than winning is not bad. Just make sure you do it with somebody who also isn't purely playing to win. Because otherwise you will lose. And it'd be your fault for taking a fluff/silly/whatever list against a finely-tuned hyper-efficient tournament list.

 

Also do not assume that I want people to handicap themselves so I can play a crappy list. I am encouraging people to play outside of the only-play-the-most-efficient-stuff style if they enjoy it. With other like-minded players. If I want to play a tourney player, I'll play a tourney list. If I want to play for a laugh with another relaxed player, I'll run whatever tickles my fluff/awesome gland and so should they.

[the jeske]

but the DA doesnt even fit in to fluff lists . you can take a naked lord with a power weapon and you will have a better hq for cheaper doing the same thing.

[zyl-]

but the DA doesnt even fit in to fluff lists . you can take a naked lord with a power weapon and you will have a better hq for cheaper doing the same thing.

except for zeal and demigogue...   ..   ...   ..wait a second

[Urauloth]

Yeah. Quite.

 

If you want a dark apostle to lead your word bearers, model one and run him as a lord. He'll be better at everything, and he won't have to run around on foot in power armour.

[Prot]

The best thing about a Dark Apostle is the model. The worst thing about a Dark Apostle is what GW did to him rules-wise.

 

He's nothing like his background dictates he should be. He's a glorified chump. His rules give you almost no indication of the real potential a Dark Apostle could and should have in an army.

 

Actually let's play the, "If I made him" game.

 

- He'd have the Crozius stick of beating the "word" into you. I'd like to see him make 'Fearless' units lose that ability in CC with him. The Crozius should seriously mess you up if you take a wound from it. I don't know what, but it's a symbol of heretic office and it has no such meaning right now.

- HE'S the one who should have made Cultists Fearless and have Feel No Pain. I would have made D.A. 'inspired' Cultists a 0-1 troop choice with a D.A. in your army. 10-30 models. Fearless + FnP.

- I would have thrown in a 'bonus' to his allies rule with some of the lesser daemons. That's a no brainer I suppose.

- His points would have to be adjusted for all of this but right now he's priced waaay out of wack.

 

Instead this guy is all show and no go right now. Avoid him like a Plague Marine that wants to go halfers with you on a pizza.

[AekoldHelbrass]

As he is written now he is support character priced as chapter master. I'd change his rules like this:

 

- count as HQ but does not take HQ slot;

- drop sigil, drop wounds to 1;

- make his cost 50-55 points;

- rename him to Dark Acolyte or something;

- no VotLW upgrade;

- make Dark Apostle upgrade for Lord to make Word Bearers players happy;

[Plaguecaster]

I reckon it would of been better like the old 3.5 codex  kinda with the daemon prince and sorcerer how you didn't buy a daemon prince/ sorcerer you upgraded a  lord into one. They could do thesame with dark apostle warpsmith and sorcerer so you start off with a simple lord, you buy what wargear he has etc then you can choose to upgrade the lord into one of the different choices say 20pts roughly which makes them a dark apostle etc so you still have a cool fluffy HQ that still has the same access to all wargear options and stats as a normal lord able to take certain cult units as troops plus a little bonus rule or special wargear maybe some of the stuff previously mentioned  (apart from as being elites as I believe they suit HQs though need something to make them just as good as a normal lord). I also believe taking a dark apostle would of been awesome if it  made you able to take one possessed unit as troops.

[zyl-]

Nah, the same people who don't take the DA now wouldn't take him if he made posessed troops simply because posessed are dumb units, too. At least from a min max point of view.