Imperial Guard without Vendettas?

[Centurio]

I recently got a bunch of nicely painted Cadians in a trade, including a couple of platoons of infantry, a medusa, 3 demolishers with modular weapons for all options, and some other random stuff. 

 

I was looking at how to make it a viable army.  It doesn't have to be a tournament standard netlist, I just want to have a chance of winning so I won't be crushed every game.

 

It seems like the Vendetta is a must have for Imperial Guard due to its effectiveness and relatively low point cost.

 

I don't really want to buy a bunch of Vendettas though, because they are expensive and I have the feeling that their point cost will rise considerably when the next IG codex is released.  I wouldn't mind buying one, but I feel like it will just be shot down quickly if its the only flyer.

 

I bought 3 Sabre Defense platforms with twin linked lascannons to use for anti-flyer duty, initially because they looked cool, but it seems like they will be a pretty decent firebase when stuck behind an aegis defense line with a quad gun. 

 

 

My question is... can I make a decent IG list without using Vendettas?   Conventional wisdom says no, I guess, but I hate to use the crutch of 3-9 Vendettas that I have seen IG players using, and I don't want to buy a bunch of them.

[minigun762]

You can make an effective list without the underpriced and overgunned Vendetta but it involves working with the classic IG strengths of firepower and bodies.

 

Massed heavy weapons with orders can help fill the hole for long range shooting.

[WarriorFish]

I think it's a great internet fallacy dialled up to 11 to say that Guard need Vendettas to be good. Anyone promoting such a blatant falsehood should be swiftly introduced to a Commissar's bolt pistol!

Take a good number of Guardsmen and support them with heavy weapons and armour. I can get most if not all my Guardsmen needs from a single Platoon easily so unless you're going infantry heavy that's often enough which neatly leaves you with 1 Veteran squad to support them. That still leaves you 4 more Troop choices to fill up if you want to You can mechanise them with the ever reliable Chimeras too.

Heavy weapons can support your infantry well in attack of defence (Mortars always earning a place in my lists) and of course the famed Guard armour will provide additional big guns and more importantly resilience. I'm very fond of the Fast Attack options we have, Hellhounds and Sentinels often find their way into my lists to provide some support to advancing infantry.

Guard artillery is second to none as well. There are so many things the Guard can do but ultimately it all comes down to variations on what minigun said: numbers and fire power

[Centurio]

OK, thanks for the replies.  You have given me hope and I am going to start experimenting with some lists this weekend!

[Idlem]

Vendetta's nice in the fact you get everything you want in anti-armor in one cheap package that can fly. Of course, what's nice about guard and what has been echoed here is that guard is able to take multiple things that can do the same role effectively. I ran without any air support for quite awhile relying on my LRBT and its varients to do the job a Vendetta does.

[Centurio]

Thanks, I haven't played Guard since 4th and that was a purely Cityfight based army with mostly infantry (plus sentinels, 1 demolisher, and some griffons), though it did well in most battles.

[Tenebris]

Vendettas are powerful but far from mandatory. Bodies, an Aegis and some decent long range weapons get the job done. I run an infantry heavy list and I find the damage from flies quite mitigated by the sheer weight of my Guardsmen numbers. Sure it is in the actual price range of Vendettas since you need several battleforces but it is a viable tactic and very guard like. All in all despite how I turn the Guard is very, very strong in the 6th and I am quite scared of the changes should a new codex arrive any soon. 

 

But yes, load on armor or heavy weapons and you are well set with a no flier list. 

[Centurio]

How many infantry would you consider "infantry heavy" in an 1850 point list ??

[Darkmagi]

Well of you want to go extream... and have no extra goodies you could have 335 models for 1730 points... granted that leaves 120 points for upgrades but thats 6 troop slots of a platoon command squad and 5 infantry squads and a company command squad... you would be able to out gun any Infantry army me thinks... but heaven help you if you face a

rhino!

[Seahawk]

I rarely use Vendettas; only when I know my friend is bringing his Caestus do I bother with them. 

 

Otherwise, anti-tank and transport capacities are already in capable hands with the rest of the army.

[Centurio]

Tenebris said he ran an infantry heavy army, I want to know how many infantry he generally uses in his lists.  I know you can field an immense number of bodies, but I am looking for practical ideas that people use in real life.  Most of the guard players I have seen in real life had between 3 to 9 vendettas.  The guard player who played the most at our local store used 9 vendettas.  So I am just looking at other possibilities.    

[hendrik]

i used to run two vendettas but quickly decided they didn't bring the crippling power i was looking for so i opted for more tanks instead. now i occasionally field one, but mostly just to have my opponent worried about that superscary-overpowered-monster-of-absolute-destruction-according-^to-the-interweb flyer

[Darkmagi]

Oh serious ideas! Well Simply put 2 platoons with autocannons in the 5 squads banded together with a couple of commisars for good measure, + heavy weps teams with wither Missile Launchers, Lascannons, or autocannons with an ageis defence line will give a large ammount of firepower going downrange, also shear number of shots can give decent anti-air other then the quad mount, backed up by manticore's or medusa's you could have a balanced force capeable of dealing with most situations, plus the 50 man blob's (+ any commisars you add to the squads) will be very difficult to shift if your opponent dosent have much in the way of blast templates. Hope that gives some ideas!

[Centurio]

Thanks, I have 6 squads right now, I could probably get 4 more squads.  I also have 3 each of lascannon, autocannon, and missile launcher teams.  I can buy some stuff, I just didn't want to buy a bunch of vendettas that  1) will probably be 'nerfed' in some way soon, and 2) don't feel like "real IG" to me. 

[WarriorFish]

I've only just started assembling my Vendetta (with the FW kit) after having it for ages It's a nice model and I like to have plenty of options, plus I want to paint something different.

Cheap as chips is how I use my Guard. I tend to spend at least 1/3 of my points on Troops as my standard (~50 models for 500 points on the dot), leaving the rest to flood the board with armour, add more infantry or play about with HQ options or whatever else I feel like. That can buy a lot of vehicles and I can fill up the Heavy Support and Fast Attack FOC slots nicely to give the list plenty of heavy hitters.

One of the many reasons I love playing the Guard is the sheer number of options you have when building a list

[Seahawk]

Oh yea, options are where it's at for IG right now. I hope that doesn't go away!

 

I usually field a CCS with sniper rifles and a Lord Commissar, or a pair of Primaris Psykers when I want cheap firepower. 

 

For Elites, I usually take a 10-man plasma Stormtrooper squad and a 5-man melta squad. Sometimes throw in Rambo for giggles.

 

For Troops, it's always one platoon with flamers and autos or meltas and missiles (for bodies), and one Veteran squad of grenadiers with flamers and power sword, always accompanied by a Ministorum Priest with eviscerator. When I want more infantry, I take a couple of HWS's with missiles and more veteran squads; one is melta, one is plasma. Chimeras go to HQ, Elites, or Troops as desired.

 

For Fast Attack, I have three armored Sentinels that tend to see more combat than flyers, though it can go either way that this point. 

 

For Heavy Support, there aren't enough slots! I almost always have a Paskquisher and Manticore, with additional Leman Russes to taste.

 

 

I usually run out of points before I even get to flyers, unless I'm planning on a flyer-heavy list.

[Centurio]

Thanks Seahawk and everybody else.  I guess the Guard codex isn't as one dimensional as I was led to believe.

 

 

I bought an IG Battleforce today, which will bring me to 8 infantry squads.  I'm going to try an infantry heavy army.

[Seahawk]

Creed is good for infnatry-heavy, because giving four orders per turn (or more if you take another command squad) makes your guys awesome!

[Centurio]

Cool, I was thinking of picking him up

[Tenebris]

My infantry heavy list at 1850 ranges around 130-150 models. I have only three squads of veterans while all my other units are basic line infantry. The PA lists mitigate the Vendetta and aircraft fire with TH/SS terminators or AA defenses on their own, the Guard on the other side has much more variety available to it. Even the best lascannon shot can kill three guardsmen per Vendetta which in a Stubborn blob of 20 is a small thing. The only important thing for a Guard player is to keep heavy weapons and special weapons safe and eventually bubble wrap your tanks in guardsmen bodies should you expect much dakka in their way. 

 

An infantry list is exactly that, the use of the basic guardsman for the most ingenious or most devious of tactics that work well against flier, melee attacker or ranged. The only thing that is scary for 150 boots on the board is a dedicated flamer squad that can by its own decimate entire platoons, for the rest you can eat fire from Vendettas or other nasty fliers and tanks as long as you have guardsmen bodies to throw at your adversary. 

 

Keep in mind that a bubble warped Leman Russ will have a cover save and the awesome dakka from fliers can kill only so much guardsmen per turn. As long as mathematics (read bodies) is in your favor you can skip vendettas and other fliers easily. Though if we speak of dedicated AA it is another thing.

[Centurio]

OK, I played 2 games yesterday. My list was...

 

Company HQ

 

Infantry platoon, 3 squads with ML and melta, 3 sabre defense platforms

 

Infantry platoon, 3 squads with flamer and autocannon.

 

2 armored sentinals with plasma cannons + HK missiles

 

3 LR Executioners with plasma sponsons and lascannon.

 

Marbo

 

Aegis defense line with quad gun

 

—-------—

 

 

Both my games were against one of the best players in my LGS, and against IMO tough armies, and I am just (re)learning IG. Though I lost I inflicted such damage on his armies that I think the guard will do fine for me with some more practice.

 

The single biggest problem was his armies being in my face on turn 1. In the first game, against grey knights, he shunted 2 dreadknights over and flamed my CCS to death and I had to deal with those.

 

In the 2nd game, 6 rhinos of grey hunters raced towards me. I fired my entire army at them, trying to open them so the Executioners could do their job. I was only able to wreck 1 rhino. This was horrible rolling on my part, pretty much.

 

I ended up killing most of the 6 grey hunter squads, but his 3 thundewolf wolf lords with 2+/3++ save just ate a bunch of my army.

 

The plasma sponsoned executioners lived up to their name, pretty much erasing entire squads.

 

Armored sentinels were marginal but useful for additional plasma.

 

I got some good use out of triple-shot lasguns too.

 

If I play an army that doesn't stick dreadknights or invulnerable rhinos in my face on turn 1 I feel pretty good about handling them.

[minigun762]

 

 

Company HQ

 

What did you have there?

 

 

Infantry platoon, 3 squads with ML and melta, 3 sabre defense platforms

 

I can't comment on the sabres but the missile launcher is a pretty poor weapon for IG, autocannon is cheaper and better at putting out shots while the lascannons' extra S and better AP is worth the minor point increase.

 

 

Infantry platoon, 3 squads with flamer and autocannon.

 

Seems decent enough, are these squads blobbed together?

 

 

2 armored sentinals with plasma cannons + HK missiles

 

I'm not sure about this squad, it's pretty dang expensive. I'd consider some basic sentinels as outflankers or some devil dog's with their melta blast weapon.

 

 

3 LR Executioners with plasma sponsons and lascannon.

 

These seems very expensive. If you were able to trim some points, I'm pretty sure you could add in an additional tank or some extra firepower elsewhere. My gut tells me that the 3 plasma shots (that don't get hot) from the main gun are typically enough.


 

[Centurio]

I am playing WYSIWYG right now, with the figures I own, with the exception of the defense platforms that I proxied because they are in the mail and I wanted to try them.

 

Company HQ

 

What did you have there?

Just a couple of grenade launchers, to keep it cheap

 

Infantry platoon, 3 squads with ML and melta, 3 sabre defense platforms

 

I can't comment on the sabres but the missile launcher is a pretty poor weapon for IG, autocannon is cheaper and better at putting out shots while the lascannons' extra S and better AP is worth the minor point increase.

I like autocannons, I have a bunch of MLs though. I am assembling 3 more autocannons with a new platoon I bought.

 

Infantry platoon, 3 squads with flamer and autocannon.

 

Seems decent enough, are these squads blobbed together?

I one game I blobbed some infantry, in the other I didn't (to create speed bump units basically), it depended on the situation. It worked out good overall. I didn't see the sense in blobbing too much without throwing in some commissars to make them stubborn, but I haven't played guard much in this codex/edition.

 

2 armored sentinals with plasma cannons + HK missiles

 

I'm not sure about this squad, it's pretty dang expensive. I'd consider some basic sentinels as outflankers or some devil dog's with their melta blast weapon.

These were 2 seperate slots so they could operate independantly. They did well in the battle as much of the high S weapons were shooting at platforms and tanks and I kept the sentinels in cover. They definately killed some marines and one even finished off a lone grey knight with an assault. I would drop the HK missiles but they were built with them. I can probably play them as having no missiles if I want.

 

3 LR Executioners with plasma sponsons and lascannon.

 

These seems very expensive. If you were able to trim some points, I'm pretty sure you could add in an additional tank or some extra firepower elsewhere. My gut tells me that the 3 plasma shots (that don't get hot) from the main gun are typically enough.

They are expensive but I loved them. The enemy did everything they could to kill them and the 5 plasma cannon shots on the move (thanks to them being heavy which I forgot about in the first game) were awesome. Entire squads were wiped by a single tank. The grey knights devoted 15 deep striking troops to try to kill them and managed to eventually kill 2 of 3 at the cost of all 15 knights. Meanwhile the tanks continued to get kills while the sentinels helped kill the knights. If there was one thing I would keep in the army, I would think it would be the 3 expensive tanks. Dropping the sponsons would save some points but I really like the ridiculous overkill of 5 plasma cannon blasts. The tanks ARE unglued so I can field then as any demolisher option with any sponson weapons so I can experiment some.

 

 

The sheer amount of plasma cannons in the list really put the hurt on the powered armor. Next time I am probably going to experiment with even more infantry.

[minigun762]

That many plasma cannons is a strong counter to footslogging heavy infantry lists but they don't do much against heavier armor and nothing against flyers.

 

Don't get me wrong, Executioners are awesome, probably the best overall LR variant with the possible exception of the Demolisher. That said, my gut tells me that 17 plasma cannons (counting the sentinels) might be too much of a good thing.

 

Just my two cents.

[Centurio]

LOL, yep I was thinking of dropping 1 and taking another infantry platoon or maybe some other stuff.....

 

 

But the theory is that on the first turn or so, my autocannons, missile launchers, and lascannons (plus plasma cannons and grenade lauchers against light armor) will turn a mech list into a footslogging list. As for heavy armor, we will try the lascannons and the meltaguns if the armor is approaching.

 

As far as flyers, I have 3 twin-linked lascannons with skyfire/interceptor (defense platforms) plus the quad gun. I don't really see taking more AAA unless I knew I was fighting a list with a bunch of Vendettas.

 

I'm going to get some more special weapons guys put together soon BTW, the grenade launcher isn't great.