Are space marines worth it?

[Boniface]

I've recently gotten back into the hobby (after acouple of years out) and noticed something, everything is geared toward marines. (I think this was the case back then too).

 

So knowing this my question is what's the point in marines?

 

Everything GW do is aimed at marines being the bench mark therefore it might be better to go with something else. They're gonna die relatively similarly. i know math hammer would say otherwise but I'd go by what actually happens over statistics any day.

 

So if 3+ saves are going to die by bein out-shot or out-manned why bother taking them? Surely its better to take a cheaper army with more fire power and more bodies.

 

Maybe I just don't understand marines anymore.

[tvih]

They're worth it if you like space marines. Similarly for other armies. That's pretty much all there is to it.

[Fibonacci]

The point is to have fun. If you would have more fun collecting, painting and playing a different army noone is going to have hurt feelings that you don't like the same army as they do.

[UltraTacSgt]

I second the "play what you like" sentiment as the most important reason.

That aside. I play plain old Codex Marines and I couldn't be happier. When I started maybe 9 months ago I was a bit upset that standard Codex Marines seemed to be overlooked by both Games Workshop and 40k players. I don't like the other chapters with their own codices, and fluff is a big part of my enjoyment of the hobby. I liked Ultramarines and Imperial Fists and damn if that's not who I was going to play. After building up a respectable force I can tell you with 100% honesty that Codex Marines have one huge huge strength. Underestimation.

People will underestimate you. Since we have no glaring strengths, people will overlook the fact that we also have no glaring weaknesses. Nobody expects Codex Marines to do as well as they are capable of doing if you plan your list accordingly. The most important thing is that if you want a specialist army, then somebody else probably does it better. Save for Vulkan, Sternguard podding, or maybe bikes. We (C:SM) don't do specialization that well. However, we can build great Take All Comers lists that can flex and adapt to take any foe. I've beaten bumrushing assault armies, gunlining Tau/IG/MeQ armies, Terminator heavy Grey Knights, and all flavors of other Marines.

If you want cool bells and whistles and awesome special rules and powerful undercosted units. Then Codex Marines is NOT for you.
If you want to be able to pick pretty much anything from your codex and throw it together to play as a force. Then Codex Marines is NOT for you.

If you want to build a really balanced and well planned army that can be played in many different ways. Then Codex Marines might be for you.
If you love the challenge of playing a codex that is not given any particularly special rules or units compared to other codices. Then Codex Marines might be for you.
If you want to know that when you win, you won because you legitimately outplayed your opponent, and not because you have some ridiculous special power. Then Codex Marines might be for you.
If you want the Emperor to approve of your humble dedication to solid Astartes warfare and bless your dice against heathen codices. Then Codex Marines might be for you.

Just read some fluff.
And play what you like, or else you won't like to play.

[GarretAsh]

I must say , since I started 3 years ago (I Pick up a AOBR set)I have had several armies that I have brought from e bay : Chaos , Tau , Orks, Dark Angels ,C:SM and Guard . From those, now I have like 4000 Points in Ultramarines and around 1000 Points in Guards (just to serve as allies when in need) I sold all others ,sure chaos got great with 6th edition with the flying toasters , the orks with the lootas and now the new Tau and Dark angels codex's , even the guards with Creed outflanking 3 leman russes , but let me tell you ,nothing , nothing , gets close to the Codex Space Marines : 6 Tactical Squads backed by 3 Combi predators ,a couple of pods with Stern guard and a Ironclad and a Plasma Command Squad on bikes rushing on one side of the table with some land speeders on the other , its just sweat , I have yet to find a army that is so balanced and fun to play with , it take some times to master the tactics and get used to the Squads expected performance , but when you get it its just one of the best armies to play.

You can even play competitive with it , Flyer Spam ?? sure Just get 3 storm Talons and 3 Storm Ravens , Armoured Vehicles rush ?? Get the Predators/vindicators and the Thunder fire cannons along with Shotty dreads , Super drop pod army ?? 12 men pods and forge world assault in the same turn pods . Want to have allies ?? get some guards and you are one of the most competitive allied army . Codex Space Marines are hard to master but once you get there they are sweet to play ! For me its one of the best army's (it would be the best if we got divination....damn it GW!)

[Grey Mage]

The question is, are you talking about C:Space Marines, or are you talking about marines- SWs, DAs, BA, etc?

[Upstartes]

Well, GW gears a lot towards space marines, but, honestly, they don't really seem to spend that much time worrying about balancing things the way you (the OP) describe - at least not prior to 6th edition codexes. For a while, codex creep was strong, and we ended up with power-houses that were kind of a mix: Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Guard, Necrons. The 6th edition codexes seem to be reversing that trend, but each new codex seems to be a mixed bag. I honestly don't think GW makes a codex while thinking "how do we want this codex to stack up against marines?" Instead, they let a designer run off and come up with some cool stuff while giving him a few guidelines on "where they want the game to go", then the team messes around with it, make some good tweaks and some bad tweaks, and when release date gets close they stop everything and rush to press. Sometimes the result is mighty, sometimes its not, but I don't think the mighty-or-not has much to do with whether its marines or not anymore.

 

The next thing is that it depends on the kind of games you play. Casual games with friends who change their lists up a lot tend to be a lot less codex dependent, in my experience, while highly competitive tournament play, or even competitive pick-up play, may really hinge on who has the more powerful codex, because everyone is pushing what they have to its limits and perfecting a specific list.

 

At any rate, I've always played marines and never felt outclassed. More often I've been chided for playing GW's favorite sons that get all the good toys. 

[DerekLee688]

If you are looking for an army that's relatively easy to paint(little to no exposed skin) and consists of strong infantry supported by specialized vehicles, then marines are for you. Space marines don't just have tough infantry, they also have fast tough infantry (jump packs/bikes), and really tough infantry artificer armor/terminator. To ignore 3+/2+ saves requires specialist/heavy weapons that have relatively few shots. They also have the toughest transports available with assault ramps, allowing them to make the most of their potential.

 

In theory, all races are balanced in their concept. Marines place emphasis on infantry, and vehicles who support them. Imperial Guard, for example, relies a little more on vehicles to win battles and infantry to mop up or shield their vehicles.

[Giga]

Depends what you want from your army.

 

If it's winning tournaments, then just get whatever is hot, but keep in mind things can change a lot with new books (example: double lash prince was awesome in 5th edition, but is literally impossible to do in 6th). 

 

If you just wanna have casual competitive fun (that includes tournaments, too), then just play whatever you like. 

[Grey Mage]

Or you could get to know your book inside and out and continue to be competitive 6 years after your book came out through solid tactics and good list building for your local meta. Theres some advantages to playing the same force for a long time.

[Giga]

Or you could get to know your book inside and out and continue to be competitive 6 years after your book came out through solid tactics and good list building for your local meta. Theres some advantages to playing the same force for a long time.

While knowing your book inside out is definitely a boon, the game is too imbalanced for skill to truly make a difference in many situations.

 

You can be the best player in the world, but unless you're playing the right codex AND the right list you'll still get destroyed in a tournament when you face crap like triple heldrakes or cronair or whatever.

[infornography]

Space Marines, particularly when they get to use their Forge World toys, are able to deal with pretty much any situation, but you need a well tuned list to make them work.  Codex:Space Marines is a hard codex to learn because so much of it is over costed and there is a lot of synergy to consider.  That is actually part of what I like about them.  But once you get them figured out, they DO have the tools to deal with just about anything.  While you might lose to a tuned anti-space marine list, you can win against most other things.

 

No army is immune to that though.  I could build a space marine list that would face stomp heldrakes and cron air.  It would be weaker against other things though.

[tvih]

While knowing your book inside out is definitely a boon, the game is too imbalanced for skill to truly make a difference in many situations.

Both imbalanced as well as luck-dependant. Like when your 265-point Calgar fails to make a single 4++ save in a CC against a Daemon Prince who in turn saves better with his 5++ and thus wins despite him having 2 wounds to start with, and you 4. Or Kantor + 2 tactical dying to 3 Seekers, against with zero successful saves for Kantor and zero Seekers killed. Or your reserves just do. Not. Arrive. Or a million other examples.

 

I mean theoretically in a match where there's no turn limit, the world's best player with 3000 points of CronAir or whatever could get tabled by the world's worst player who only has... say, a single CML Terminator model. Of course that won't happen in reality, but you can't account for how the dice decide to fall at any given time. You can plan contingencies and whatever, but all of them can fail just as easily when all the rolls go south.

 

So between the varying Codex power levels and the luck factor, skill often seems to take a back seat especially if even the worse player of the two is at least semi-competent.

[Fibonacci]

To me, you just laid out all the arguments as to why skill is the only thing you can rely on.  Everything else is random chance.

[Giga]

To me, you just laid out all the arguments as to why skill is the only thing you can rely on.  Everything else is random chance.

List buildings and the strength of the codex itself are most definitely not random chance. 

[Fibonacci]

I would call list building a skill.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I would call list building a skill.

 

+1

[Giga]

I would call list building a skill.

Well, yeah, but I was under the impression we were talking about actual tactical skill here. :S 

 

Also, the vast majority of us are limited in our list building skills by our models collection, so that kinda stifles it. 

[Grey Mage]

 

 

 

 

While knowing your book inside out is definitely a boon, the game is too imbalanced for skill to truly make a difference in many situations.

 

You can be the best player in the world, but unless you're playing the right codex AND the right list you'll still get destroyed in a tournament when you face crap like triple heldrakes or cronair or whatever.

 

 

You may be right in the end, but if I agreed with you I wouldnt bother playing this game.

[Giga]

Keep in mind that what I say only applies when talking high end tournaments and stuff.

 

In 99% of the normal games people bring regular non-optimized lists and skill does play a huge factor. 

[franzdietrich]

I would argue no. As a starter army, sure - they're the jack of all trades, masters of none, which makes them perfect for learning how to play! After a while, that becomes the major downside about them, unless, of course, you use a chapter-specific codex/fandex. If you do decide to play Space Marines, I would highly recommend Black Templars, as they tend to have some of the most well-written fluff (if that's your kinda thing) and can destroy pretty much any shooty army, except perhaps Necrons. Depends, of course, on your skill level.

 

Tl;dr: Beginner - Go for it, you'll love playing them! Advanced - Not unless you play a chapter-specific codex or really like the look and feel of Space Marines.

[Polythemus]

I've recently gotten back into the hobby (after acouple of years out) and noticed something, everything is geared toward marines. (I think this was the case back then too).

So knowing this my question is what's the point in marines?

Everything GW do is aimed at marines being the bench mark therefore it might be better to go with something else. They're gonna die relatively similarly. i know math hammer would say otherwise but I'd go by what actually happens over statistics any day.

So if 3+ saves are going to die by bein out-shot or out-manned why bother taking them? Surely its better to take a cheaper army with more fire power and more bodies.

Maybe I just don't understand marines anymore.

If i may be allowed to read the subtext here.

 

1. Everything is geared toward marines = marines are the standard army of 40k. True, sometimes humans are more relatable than giant evil demons from outer space, (unless you happen to work for nasa.)

 

2. ...mathhammer may say otherwise but id go by what happens over statistics any day. = ? The statistics say that you will need to take 120+ saves before you can be assured of actually making 1 save in six when using terminator armor. But you wont always get that in one game (or ever) but over multiple games you may come close. Point being statistics are usually right but the job of a player is to thwart this. what is supposed to be a statistical strength of an opponent needs to be subverted to give your self the best chance to win. space marines have strengths that make them good at many things, which is why they are the standard and why many ppl start with space marines to learn the game.

 

3. So if 3+ saves are going to die by bein out-shot or out-manned why bother taking them? = the helldrake and the high model count armies doesnt always equate to victory. This again is where one must excercise tactics to give yourself a chance. All armies have a weakness. In the case of space marines that weakness is that they are elite and cost more points. We are all bound by choices even necrons. So descision making and movement are what really define good players from bad. The descions you make with space marines are different than those you would make with other armies, eg their playstyles are different. Tau like to shoot, orks swarm, tyranids assault, etc. whether or not you like the way an army plays, is down to personal preference, but elements of those other army playstyles will be evident in part in the way marines play, because... Marines are the standard army of 40k. So if there is an element that you like more than others when you play marines its likely you can find that element in other armies magnified to an extent. For this reason marines are good to start with and then learn what you like and what you dont.

[Axagoras]

TO be honest marines really arnt that great at shooting. almost every army has a s4 gun with close BS to 4

[DerekLee688]

TO be honest marines really arnt that great at shooting. almost every army has a s4 gun with close BS to 4

 

When talking about C:SM the bolt gun/pistol/stormbolter is just meant to be better than the generic close combat weapon. Same S:4, striking before any close combat weapon, reaches 12"-24", and AP:5. Tac. squads fit free flamer and missile launcher, plus a cheap lascannon/plasma cannon. Typhoon launchers are good, mobile multi meltas, sky hammer storm talon, thunder fire supports itself in melee/better cover, whirlwind, 4x missile launcher devestators, and sternguard are kinda expensive but are one of the shootiest units we have. None of those may be the cheapest or most effective compared to the best the IG/Tau/Necron have, but our worst assault unit will give their best shooting unit some real trouble.

 

Space marine codex may be a bit more sluggish than eldar or mass fliers, but Drop pods/bikes/jump packs/land speeders combined with our own fliers makes for a mobile army and all of those units can equip melta/AP:1-3 weapons.

[W0lfie]

 

 

If you want to build a really balanced and well planned army that can be played in many different ways. Then Codex Marines might be for you.

If you love the challenge of playing a codex that is not given any particularly special rules or units compared to other codices. Then Codex Marines might be for you.

If you want to know that when you win, you won because you legitimately outplayed your opponent, and not because you have some ridiculous special power. Then Codex Marines might be for you.

If you want the Emperor to approve of your humble dedication to solid Astartes warfare and bless your dice against heathen codices. Then Codex Marines might be for you.

 

Just read some fluff.

And play what you like, or else you won't like to play.

 

If you want to play and army with a million awesome models, units and books from Forgeworld, they are also for you.

 

Seriously, 2 alternate versions of our army list, 2 marks of predator, who knows how many marks of land raiders, 27 characters, including two sergeants, 3 chaplains, 2 MotF, 2 Librarians, 2 Character who can make Assault Termies scoring in one way or another, 2 Dreadnoughts, 1 IC Apothecary and more besides.  No other army has such a wealth of options from FW, or at all.