Are space marines worth it?

[GeneralSimpson]

I had the same question when I first started out in 40K, "are marines worth it".  I first started (during 4 ed) as a Necron player, but I did not like the stand, shoot and wait to get assaulted.  I tried Chaos space marines (Khorne), but charging across the field got boring as everyone figured out what I would be doing.  I switched to Black Templars, but alas, I had the same problems, "Oh look, he is going to charge me."  I asked around about which army would best suit me.  When asked I said, "I want an army that can charge, stand and shoot, or do anything I may need."  I was told to try vanilla marines.  

 

I have found that they are jacks-of-all-trades; good at a lot, great at a little. This is my play style. One build I may droppod/deepstrike the entire army, make an armor build, do nothing but footsloggers, or make a mixture of any of these.  While the marines may not be the easiest to win with, it can be done if you are lucky enough with the dice and can stick to your game plan. 

[Garath]

  Here's a couple of cents from a veteran here...

 

 

  Yes, they are .  There are several reason for this(if we are talking specifically from a competitive point of view):

 

1.  The game is not very balanced, but is balanced enough that player skill DOES matter.  Winning tournaments shouldn't be a major motive for playing the game.  Codexi do shift playced on the power curve( the rage of 6th ed is Necron Air force while it was G®ay Knights in 5th ) but the game has more layers then other games ( as units can start in reserve and surprise the opponent) .  How do SM come into this picture?

    The basic marine is still the best model for it's price.  Compare it to any other trooper and you will come to the same conclusion - at least most of the time.    So if a model is overall better then a marine, it will cost a greater number of points (duh).  By that I mean a single SM has no glaring weakness for the opponent to exploit.

 

2.  Generalist approach  for the win!

        You can do well against any and every opponent out there with a SM army.  I'm talking about an army of say 50 marines + toys.  This list is not easy to play - but there IS flavor there .  I myself play Dark Angles, but I don't go fielding funky stuff all the time - most of my lists have at least 40 marines in them.  

 

3.  Exploiting weaknesses  of your foes

 

    As said other armies all have some weakness you can exploit.  Take Cron air for example...an army with say 6 fliers and troops inside them with only 2 units deployed on the table.  If you manage to kill those 2 on your first turn (as his fliers come in on 2nd turn- and not all of them) you win.

 

   Ho to do that?  

 

  Whirlwind and 2 drop pods.   If you go first, this is very easy.   First drop pod is an ultra shooty unit (like sternguard ) or a tough cc unit (assault marines with flamers) .Second drop pod is Lucious pattern  drop pod (from FW but you can convert one)  and a Dreadnought (Venerable or Ironclad).

   First pod lands and shoots the ....  out of a unit,  Dread can charge when he lands (yes, it's legal ).   Whirlwind negates saves to normal N.Warriors and doesn't care about possible Night Fight.

 

   3rd Drop pod can contain anything you like-  a tactical squad will be enough .

 

   This combo costing less then 500 pts total is enough to win against Cron Air.  

 

 

   Almost every army out there that is geared up to beat one aspect of the game(popularly known as a power gamer army) has a weakness like that.

 

  SM cannot be that army.

 

 

 

 

 

  To conclude my fairly long post-  one final note.

 

  SM are cheap to collect.  You can buy tacticals literally everywhere .  Get 40-50 of these.  Buy 2-3 Razorbacks/Rhinos .  Add a Predator with Magnatized weapons.  Whirlwind and a single Vindicator. 2 units of Terminators.  A land Raider (magnets are your firends). 2 - 3 Drop pods.  Some dreadnoughts and Land speeders..

 

  Congrats!  

 

  When the edition changes, or a new codex comes out you don't need to re-build your army.  Take Orks as an example (and I own 4000 pts) with the new edition the Slugga Boys are suddenly a bad idea. Dreadnoughts and Killa Kans too.  Nobs of all kinds are crap now.

   I own all of these units and payed a lot of cash for them .  If I want to be competitive, I need a 100 shoota boys.

 

  What did I buy for my Dark Angles?

 

 Dark Vengence...  which is 600 pts for not a lot of money (comparing to Orks) and a Whirlwind launcher (which will be mounted on a rhino )

[Robert2004]

I am interested to know how you come to the conclusion that a walker (Dreadnaught) can shoot and assault the turn it lands in a drop pod? Please explain this further as I will be trying to use it in the future and will no doubt face strong opposition so need a good argument to put across ha ha. =]

[pyroknight]

A dreadnought in a drop pod can not assault the turn it lands. This is stated clearly in the rules for a drop pod. 

There is a special forgeworld drop pod that does allow this, but you should ask permission from your opponent before you play it. 

[W0lfie]

I have actually built an army around lucius pods-turn one, three ironclads drop down.  Turn two, 1x Sternguard 1x Tactical squad drops and mops up.

[Garath]

I am interested to know how you come to the conclusion that a walker (Dreadnaught) can shoot and assault the turn it lands in a drop pod? Please explain this further as I will be trying to use it in the future and will no doubt face strong opposition so need a good argument to put across ha ha. =]

 Lucius Pattern Drop pod from IA2 , costing around 20 pts more then the codex one has a rule stating that a dreadnought exiting it can charge on the turn the pod lands.

 

  So, FW came to that conclusion for me...

[Deus de Mortalis]

I love their minis, but I've never been keen on using any forgeworld rules unless they weren't clearly advantageous.<br /><br />I have dabbled with other armies, but my main one has always been vanilla marines since third edition. However, right now, they are as bad as they have ever been. I was never a big fan of the 5th edition codex, and tactical squads, already one of the weakest options in the dex, took a hit with the challenge rules. I can't wait for the next dex to come, but vanilla marines really aren't so bad and they do some things moderately well.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Sergeants took a hit on the Challenge mechanic, but Tactical Squads are better in 6th than they were in 5th.  The changes to rapid fire, introduction of snap fire, and Overwatch combine to make the Tactical Squad an effective and efficient troops choice.  Can they be better for their points?  Sure.  Are there better troops choices in other armies?  Of course.  But those facts don't make Tac Squads bad, brother.

[War Angel]

I see what he's saying about Tac squads though, and I too await what ever goodies we might get with our next dex. I'm scared to model a command squad because I noticed DA approthicarys now only have a chainsword, no bolter at all.

 

I do hope they give the ability to have tacticals decent in combat. I'm not saying make them the best, I just think tht should I be facing a shootie army, I want tacticals a little bit better at hand to hand. Give us a reason to take the things that are in the codex, don't just have them in their as an option for the sake of filling space

[Garath]

To be honest here- as a DA player (and wihtout Banner of Devastation) i was always a fan of tactical squads.

Truth be told, with some supporting elements, tactical marines can outshoot/outfight/outlast most other troops. If you take them in fairly large numbers (40+) they become a pain to deal with.

Say 40 tac marines, vindicator, whirlwind and some anti air + a transport or 2 make a powerful chore of any SM list. The fact that they are so flexible and resilient make them a solid choice every time. Their damage output is perhaps not as big as other units- but quantity is a quality of it's own.

A single rapid firing tactical squad might not do enough damage to stop a charge- but 2 will. A good mixture of special weapons must ensure you can deal with various targets(one squad packs plasma+combi plasma,the other flamer+combi flamer).

They might not be top tier - but no army can claim you don't have a fighting chance against it

I scored 2nd at a local tournament last December with a DA tactical marine list (with the old codex) where they where pulling the weight of the fighting every game.

The old DA codex had more expensive tactical marines , with less options the SM codex- but still in large numbers they where certainly a pain to deal with.

....or maybe they are indeed mediocre , but I like a challange

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Garath, I'm with you.  Tac Squads of all types are highly underrated.  My standard tournament army at the moment has three squads of them; aside from my HQs and the TFC gunner, they are the only infantry models I have in the army.  They do a lot of killing when properly equipped!

[Garath]

I found them to be ok against 90% of the stuff out there- apart from clearly unreasonable tasks for them.  An example of this is hoping they beat Nob bikers in cc.

 

  Their good sides start to show as soon as you have 20 of them working together to deal with a threat and some support.   In this case, (in context of the DA codex) -that would mean either dropping a vindicator pieplate onto the Nobs and boltering the rest to death, or using Dark knights Rad grenade to lower Nobs T to 4.  

  Then the tacticals can finish them off in a single volley of rapid fire.  Lascannon / ¸M. Launcher for those instant kills.

 

  One thing that tacticals require is mutual support.