Belial and Friends... the best 685 pts you'll ever spend

[Slavik]

Brothers,

 

The most powerful Dark Angels unit is a 10 man CC terminator squad led by Belial.

 

   Ever since the new codex came out, people have started to play DA again.  Unlike 5th edition, not everyone is playing the same list. Their lists vary in many different ways, but most of the lists I have seen run at least 1 terminator squad.  I have noticed that most terminator squads are the same.  Many of these lists run Belial; some even run a Librarian for Prescience.  Most squads contain a majority SB/PF.  Most squads are 10 man squads with either 2 CMLs or 1 CML and 1 Assault cannon.   I see few TH/SS and even fewer LC/LC.  We can get more out of our terminators...

 

CC vs Ranged Terminator

Terminators are better equiped for CC than for ranged. Even when fully loaded, a terminator squad has 10 storm bolters or 20 bolter shots.  For 440 pts, this is very underwhelming.  A Drop pod with a tact squad can give me the same fire power for 175 pts. Even with a CML or Assault cannon, your fire power cannot compare to your CC abilities. In close combat you start with 20 attacks base, more with LC/LC.  With AP 2 & 3 attacks, most wounds will be instant death for your enemies.  CC protects your units from enemy ranged weapons.  TH/SS gives you the added bonus of 3++.  This gives you the ability to take on monstrous creatures and other elite units.

  Terminators resilience is most effectively used in CC.  For the price of 3 tac marines, you buy the staying power of 2+/5++.  Anyone who's played DA has seen where an enemy squad unloads on a terminator squad. After hits and wounds are rolled, you roll every single save.  Not surprising since you have an 83% chance of surviving the wound. However, DA players will also attest to opponents who shot rapid fire into a squad of terminators; and things didn't go so well. When your terminators are unengaged, it's them against your enemy's entire army. In CC, its the terminators against one other squad.

   "Hybrid-ing" your squad may make them more versitile, but can lead to bad situations.  You get in position to attack a ranged unit in cover.  If you shoot and kill some of them, you are increasing the distance you need to charge them (remembering that you roll 3d6 take the lowest for diff terrain). Combine this with a lucky overwatch (losing your closest model) and you may fail to your charge.  Also, your opponent's unit may have to take a leadership check if you kill enough of the unit. If they fail their leadership check and run, your terminators will be open to full fire on your opponent's next turn. 

   Overall, your terminators are better used for close combat than range.

 

Belial

  Belial is most effectively used as a CC leader.  His high WS, I, and gear allow him to attack first, wound, and kill consistently.  He has no weaponry other than a storm bolter.   Also, Belial has the unique ability of allowing his squad to deep strike without scattering.  This allows you to deep strike in places most players would dare not try (i.e. sides, corners, and 1" away from enemy models).  By placing your unit anywhere, you can position them in a why that screens them from enemy fire.  You can also place them next to long range enemy units and assault them the next turn. Finally, Belial's Warlord Trait "The Hunt" is used in CC.

 

Unit Composition

Belial

TH/SS x5 (normally placed between Belial and AP1/2 weaponry)

LC/LC x3 (extra ATKs and re-roll to wound make them a must have)

SB/CF (guarantees the destruction of vehicles) 

TH/SS Sqd leader (Used for challenges, allows Belial to kill multiple models; ensures enemy doesn't get armor save)

 

Tactics

Deep strike location is one of the most important parts of using this squad.  When you deep strike, you want to put your models in a position to be able to assault the following turn.  It is almost guaranteed that they will become your opponent's number 1 priority. Place your squad in a way that doesn't expose your squad to your enemy's entire army.  I try to place my squad 1" from my opponent's units and/or next to a table edge.  This ensures that a scattering shot has the opportunity to fall off the table or onto my opponent's own units. I almost always run my unit. This makes them less vulnerable to area attacks.  The next turn, I start clearing out my opponents army. As stated above, the safest place for your terminators is in CC. Finally, the unit is scoring and can be the difference in a close game.

 

I have had great success with Belial and the ten man CC terminator squad. Below is a link to a list I played at my last tournament:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273266-2000-pt-dwgw-try-this-list/

 

In conclusion, Belial with ten CC terminators are one of the best combos in the codex. They are a great addition to any list.

 

Good hunting.

Slavik

[tomsev]

no heavy weapons? not even a heavy flamer?

i normally take an interrogator chaplain as well in a 10 termie belial lead squad... 

just a thought im throwing out wouldnt knight be better? cheaper, better toughness, can go happy slappy on one turn and destroy something...    like i said this is just me thinking out loud...

[IndigoJack]

They're also overkill. Are they going to crush most things in one turn? Yup. Are they going to get shot up next turn? Probably. It's just horribly inefficient. Time and again, people have shown that Death Stars are rock lists with hard counters. What happens when you're stuck in assault with a power blob of 30-40 guardsmen? You're expensive unit is stuck there, until one side is dead. I can tell you from personal experience that the assault will take several game turns to finish. That's a unit that's half the price of your Death Star holding it at bay. I know this unit sounds awesome, but it's really not powerful =/= best.

[[TA]Typher]

wouldn't Deathwing knights be noticeably better?

 

I recently played against a tau army and just a 5man unit of DWK devistated the xenos. They basically won the game single handed. For the two models I lost they killed 30+ models, while being cheap enough to allow me to have troops to hold objectives. The shields allow you to take the return fire if you happen to overkill a unit in one turn (It happened to me several times in the game). Terms would have faired much, much worse.

 

Don't get me wrong I love me some Terms, but I don't think they are the BEST point per performance unit in the codex.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/273191-batrep-da-vs-tau/

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm gagging to try my Belial with some DWKs (5ish), DS'd in the manner the OP desribed, followed by other DSing DW 'tactical' squads using Belials homer to ensure accuracy.

I want to like the idea of a single large termie squad but am also hesitant to put so many eggs in one basket.

 

March10k has repeatedly told us about his excellent DW tactic; it is nice and aggressive and a slight change to it might enable the OP's idea to really take shape on all battlefields without the tarpit problem.

 

Ideas?

 

stobz

[MithrilForge]

 

I'm gagging to try my Belial with some DWKs (5ish), DS'd in the manner the OP desribed, followed by other DSing DW 'tactical' squads using Belials homer to ensure accuracy.
I want to like the idea of a single large termie squad but am also hesitant to put so many eggs in one basket.

im in this arena too...not sure that i want to hedge all my bets on one horse(or a one trick pony) so to speak....
i like to have a few choices at hand rather than a single(albiet a very powerful) choice.
im not poo-pooing the squad,if i were to play a 2500 or greater points game the OP's original squad would be a viable and fun Hammer....
although i, like many others probably feel weird about not having any ranged weapons in such a huge squad,i guess it really is a finely tuned/focused deathstar Unit
good luck with your army.
cheers, Mithril

[Kastor Krieg]

Try Knights with Lysander. ZOMG - very reliably take down 2 Land Raiders in a split charge.

[Slavik]

Regular terminators are arguably better than DWKs. For a couple of reasons.

 

DWK Maces are AP 4.  When playing against MEQ, this gives them an armor save.  I realize they attack at regular initiative,  but most long range units you are attacking will be in cover so your first round will be at I1 anyway.  The supercharge is nice, but it only lasts 1 round. All DW models are AP2 and AP3.  Lightning claws even have an extra attack.  In close combat you can chose who you want to lose first.  Playing against a horde army like IG, I would lose the hammers first. Playing against more terminators, I would lose the lightning claws.

 

DWK do have WS5 which gives you an advantage over regular terminators; however, a TH/SS has a better chance than a DWK of killing a tact marine.

(prob of hit)*(prob of wound)*(opp armor save) = probability of unsaved wound

TH: 216*(3/6)*(5/6)*(6/6) = 90/216 = 41.7%

Mace:  216*(4/6)*(5/6)*(2/6) = 40/216 = 18.5%

The big difference is in the AP4 against 3+ Armor

 

Most importantly, DW can be troop choices. With so many objective based missions, having a unit that can clear an objective, and hold it gives you flexibility. I have used DWKs with Belial. In 1 game, I would have won if Belial's squad had been scoring.

[Slavik]

In regards to heavy weapons: I recommend 1 Assault cannon or CML. Shoot Belial's storm bolter at whatever unit you are assaulting, even if it is a tank. This will allow you to split fire the CML/assault cannon into another unit. I especially look for side armor of vehicles or T4 creatures with multiple wounds.

***Make sure you run the tern you deep strike if your opponent has area AP1 or AP2 (Demolisher, plasma cannon)

 

In regards to blob squads, I completely agree that they can tie up Belial's unit for the better part of a game.  I recommend deep striking Belial away from such units. Instead, go after Dev sqds, tanks, and other long range units.  For blob squads, I recommend using Vindicators. Though they have a short range, they are effective against just about everything.

 

In regards to the concern about all your eggs in one basket, the list helps to mitigate the randomness by making Deep Strike non-scattering. This allows you to position your unit in a way that gives you the best access to your opponent without exposing yourself to his entire army.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Thanks for the maths Slavik; I'd read somewhere that they were betterer and believed it without breaking out the calculator ;)

 

I'll just model up and paint mine for other purposes then (like CSM hunting games)

[Dafoo]

Take Heavy Weapons... Instead of choosing to ignore your split fire ability. Sure Belial can pop 2 shots off with his bolter. Which is what you want anyways you paid for it. You can injure a model in the back 33% of the time. You can take Missile Launchers on these guys pepper the squad you are going to melee with with Belial Chances are you are two far away if removing one model is what is going to make you not get into melee. Then fire your 4 missile launchers at something else before you tarpit. Oh look a Juicy Leman Russ rear armor. OH! Also this makes it so that when you show up turn one you can fire twin linked rockets at something! If you don't like that take flamers with Chain Fists. This way you can guarantee kill a vehicle get free wounds on charging horde armies like Nids, Orks or Dark Eldar. Overkill? Maybe just a little. But you have split fire. We are one of two armies that can do this. Why not take advantage of it? Especially if we already have 97% of what you need to do it?

[Slavik]

Vengeful strike is a great ability, and I have used it effectively on more than one occasion.  I have to stress the danger of leaving your units base to base when your opponent has blast/template weapons, especially AP2 (plasma cannon). I speak from experience on both sides of the table. I had a Long Fang squad with 3 plasma cannons take out 7 terminators in one round. Last tournament, I also used a Vindicator and plasma cannon to turn a 10 man terminator squad into a 2 man terminator squad.

[march10k]

~shrug~  If you're talking about the deathstar for the "we each get one unit of anything legal with a character attached" scenario, then, yeah, max knights with Belial.  Otherwise, two five man squads are better than a single ten man squad, if you have enough troops slots, and you should.  As for making them all assault terminators, that's dumb and wasteful.  A tactical terminator is equally as killy as a thundernator in melee, and only slightly (since melee AP was introduced) less survivable.  On the other hand, the thundernator has nothing better to do than soak fire while moving to the next assault target.  On the other hand, a tactical terminator can make good use of vengeful strike and can fire at fleeing foes.  A purely gun-less ten man squad is a joke, because it's too slow to catch an enemy squad that chooses to run...while the rest of the enemy army pours on the shooting.  A tactical termie can dakka as he advances, diminishing the upside of fleeing from the termies.  I would say that, if you're for some reason taking a ten man squad, you'll want maybe three thundernators as an AP2 shooting screen, five tactical termies to put out a respectable volume of fire, and two heavy weapons.  If you're attaching Belial, then a pair of heavy flamers is attractive because you can pretty much lay those two templates anywhere on the board that you want!  Otherwise, I prefer assault cannons to CMLs at the moment, just for vengeful strike and the potential to pen AV14.

 

But, seriously, two five man squads are better than one ten man squad 99% of the time.

[[TA]Typher]

Regular terminators are arguably better than DWKs. For a couple of reasons.

 

DWK Maces are AP 4.  When playing against MEQ, this gives them an armor save.  I realize they attack at regular initiative,  but most long range units you are attacking will be in cover so your first round will be at I1 anyway.  The supercharge is nice, but it only lasts 1 round. All DW models are AP2 and AP3.  Lightning claws even have an extra attack.  In close combat you can chose who you want to lose first.  Playing against a horde army like IG, I would lose the hammers first. Playing against more terminators, I would lose the lightning claws.

 

DWK do have WS5 which gives you an advantage over regular terminators; however, a TH/SS has a better chance than a DWK of killing a tact marine.

(prob of hit)*(prob of wound)*(opp armor save) = probability of unsaved wound

TH: 216*(3/6)*(5/6)*(6/6) = 90/216 = 41.7%

Mace:  216*(4/6)*(5/6)*(2/6) = 40/216 = 18.5%

The big difference is in the AP4 against 3+ Armor

 

Most importantly, DW can be troop choices. With so many objective based missions, having a unit that can clear an objective, and hold it gives you flexibility. I have used DWKs with Belial. In 1 game, I would have won if Belial's squad had been scoring.

Um... U HAVE to add the actvated Maces in ur equations. You also have to add the DWK champion who have 3 ap2 attacks at inititive. Look at my batrep. Although the maces are only for one round THEY Devistate normal terminators. At most u can say the DWK don't count as troops for objective purposes, but they clearly are better at CC AND have a much, much higher survivablity.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Brothers,

 

 

CC vs Ranged Terminator

Terminators are better equiped for CC than for ranged. Even when fully loaded, a terminator squad has 10 storm bolters or 20 bolter shots.  For 440 pts, this is very underwhelming.  A Drop pod with a tact squad can give me the same fire power for 175 pts. Even with a CML or Assault cannon, your fire power cannot compare to your CC abilities. In close combat you start with 20 attacks base, more with LC/LC.  With AP 2 & 3 attacks, most wounds will be instant death for your enemies.  CC protects your units from enemy ranged weapons.  TH/SS gives you the added bonus of 3++.  This gives you the ability to take on monstrous creatures and other elite units.

  Terminators resilience is most effectively used in CC.  For the price of 3 tac marines, you buy the staying power of 2+/5++.  Anyone who's played DA has seen where an enemy squad unloads on a terminator squad. After hits and wounds are rolled, you roll every single save.  Not surprising since you have an 83% chance of surviving the wound. However, DA players will also attest to opponents who shot rapid fire into a squad of terminators; and things didn't go so well. When your terminators are unengaged, it's them against your enemy's entire army. In CC, its the terminators against one other squad.

   "Hybrid-ing" your squad may make them more versitile, but can lead to bad situations.  You get in position to attack a ranged unit in cover.  If you shoot and kill some of them, you are increasing the distance you need to charge them (remembering that you roll 3d6 take the lowest for diff terrain). Combine this with a lucky overwatch (losing your closest model) and you may fail to your charge.  Also, your opponent's unit may have to take a leadership check if you kill enough of the unit. If they fail their leadership check and run, your terminators will be open to full fire on your opponent's next turn. 

   Overall, your terminators are better used for close combat than range.

 

Your overview on ranged Terminators is incorrect. Ranged Terminators are also close combat terminators, but sacrifice a 3+ invulnerable save (or the now less powerful Lightning Claw) for dealing consistent damage each turn instead of just burst damage when they're in close combat. They can also sit happily in your deployment zone against close combat armies being a silent threat whilst poking a little with the Storm Bolters and heavy weapons.

 

Each type of Terminator squad is used for and dealt with in a different way. I consider shooty Terminators a 'bruiser' type unit that can take and deal damage, halting the enemies progress, but not single handedly carrying the game. Close combat terminators I use for hunting their high damage type units, like Devastator squads as soon as possible. If not by tranposrt or deep strike, then I'll have to barge everything else out of the way, although this is less effective. Once the high damage units are destroyed, the enemy will be less capable to deal with the either the close combat terminators or the rest of your army. They are also an effective 'zoning' unit. Like the Vindicator, the enemies entire movement phase is manipulated by the position of your assault termintors.

 

So as you can see, even terminator armies are subject to individual roles and synergy to make your success more likely.

[Aegnor]

Also, the shooting ability of 10 terminators is not equal to a tactical squad - even if the tact squad is rapid firing. SBs get their 2 shots all the way out to 24", and are assault weapons unlike bolters. And as others have mentioned there's the Vengeful Strike ability on top of that. I love my tactical terminators - they almost always do something useful, whereas my assault heavy terminators usually end up not doing much.

[Rizara]

Is everyone also forgetting the knights can get a bonus to their toughness, and yes they have ap 4 weapons, but they strike at iniative and are still hitting at str 6. Not sure but compared to slow thunder hammers they actually go in and hit most things on 3's or better and can instant kill T3 models at iniative and will easily wound T4 models, sure marines will get a save but they have to still make it. Striking last has to deal with rolling saves before rolling attacks and sure a 2+/3++ is good but it isn't 100% reliable.

 

Still they are not troops, but I would rather support the knights with troops that have some firepower. Also as it has been mentioned elsewhere melee can reduce the shots that dw take but they still have to get there. DW also already suffer from low model count, so I too have a hard time justifying that any points into one single unit that can be reduced to ash before I can get them stuck in.

[BigGumbo]

I can't help thinking that a 10 man Terminator squad with no ranged firepower at all is wasteful. At 44 points per model (49 for the hammernators), you want to be maximising their impact and that means doing as much in every phase of the game as possible. Even if your ranged firepower is only 2 heavy weapons for anti-tank plus a storm bolter to tag nearby infantry units for CC, that's surely got to be worth using.

 

Most importantly, DW can be troop choices. With so many objective based missions, having a unit that can clear an objective, and hold it gives you flexibility. I have used DWKs with Belial. In 1 game, I would have won if Belial's squad had been scoring.

This suggests to me that the impact of scoring/non-scoring is pretty much immaterial in determining which flavour of termies to take. If it would only have made a difference in one game, then it presumably wouldn't have made a difference in any others. You also need to bear in mind that even not very smart opponents will tend to target your scoring units first so if Belial's squad had been scoring in that one game, they might not have made it to the end of the game.

[elphilo]

Um... U HAVE to add the actvated Maces in ur equations. You also have to add the DWK champion who have 3 ap2 attacks at inititive. Look at my batrep. Although the maces are only for one round THEY Devistate normal terminators. At most u can say the DWK don't count as troops for objective purposes, but they clearly are better at CC AND have a much, much higher survivablity.

I thought he was AP3. Also he's not adding Hammer of Wrath attacks they get as well

I also highly suggest trying march10k's 2 Land Raider Deathwing list. It is by far a scary and awesome list to run!

[Azrael Turnbull]

Is everyone also forgetting the knights can get a bonus to their toughness, and yes they have ap 4 weapons, but they strike at iniative and are still hitting at str 6. Not sure but compared to slow thunder hammers they actually go in and hit most things on 3's or better and can instant kill T3 models at iniative and will easily wound T4 models, sure marines will get a save but they have to still make it. Striking last has to deal with rolling saves before rolling attacks and sure a 2+/3++ is good but it isn't 100% reliable.

 

Still they are not troops, but I would rather support the knights with troops that have some firepower. Also as it has been mentioned elsewhere melee can reduce the shots that dw take but they still have to get there. DW also already suffer from low model count, so I too have a hard time justifying that any points into one single unit that can be reduced to ash before I can get them stuck in.

 

I much prefer Deathwing Knights to Lightning Claw Terminators right now. They're also very cheap, especially compared to TH/SS Terminators. So they're AP4; it's nice to combine I4 with a 3+ inv. The T5 is a nice bonus (so long as the enemy has no AP2/1 templates). TBH, I usually wipe out my prime enemy target with smite mode in one assault phase. After that, they happliy walk around bonking things on the head and tying strong long range units in assault or bashing in any vehicle with rear armour 10/11. In addition, let's face it; Tyranids and Orks loooooove Maces.

[Slavik]

Dafoo, I agree with taking the Heavy weapons to split fire, especially when you can get rear/side armor on an enemy tank.  I would be cautious when using it the turn you deep strike.

march10k, I disagree with using two five man squads.  In fifth edition, you could only take 5 man terminator squads.  After taking casualties, you were left with a 2 man squad.  Whether in CC or ranged, they lose their effectiveness.  When attaching a unit such as an interrogator chaplain or Librarian, it's best to attach him to a larger squad. Everyone gets the bonus.

BigGumbo, CC terminators are worth taking, even if they don't have ranged weaponry.  It just makes deployment that more important.  You find a spot where you ensure your terminators will stay employed. Places such as ADLs and concentrations of units.  Pick the right spot (possibly their objective), and your opponent will come to you.

 

Aegnor,  a 10 man tact squad with a drop pod can give you the same fire power as ten tactical terminators (20 bolter shots).  While you can only double tap at 12", the drop pod gives you the ability to place them within 12" of your enemy.  Are the rest of their stats the same, no. However, my point is that I can get 20 bolter shots for 175 pts (3.5 terminators).

 

In regards to DWK vs regular terminator. I do agree that their powered up attack gives them a huge bonus. However, it is for 1 TURN. You get one shot to kill another unit or tank.  Afterward, they have a max strength 6.  THs have strength 8 every turn.  This allows you to glance everything (LRs, Monoliths,...) Also, regular terminators can take Chain Fists (which I recommend taking 1). In regards to +1 Toughness, it's awesome in CC; however, your models may get spread out as they are clearing out enemy units. I normally lost base-to-base contact when moving my models to get base contact with unengaged units.   When not in CC, it's great against hordes. Let's see those flashlights roll a 6. Against a plasma cannon or a vindicator cannon, you are just making it easier for your opponent to place the template.

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

I have been having an lot of success with belial, 10 terms only 3 hammers, two assault or cyclones, and deep strike. It's a bit more expensive but arriving where I want using split fire, and that the weapons are twin linked means this unit arrives, kills the biggest threat to them and hopefully pops a tank.

Yeah they then take a turn of horrendous firepower from my opponent but, especially with first turn, enough survive to walk through the majority of forces. Leaves my black knights, and tacs alone. Normally I lose most of the terms but have never had a game where the lot have died.

[IndigoJack]

Dafoo, I agree with taking the Heavy weapons to split fire, especially when you can get rear/side armor on an enemy tank.  I would be cautious when using it the turn you deep strike.

march10k, I disagree with using two five man squads.  In fifth edition, you could only take 5 man terminator squads.  After taking casualties, you were left with a 2 man squad.  Whether in CC or ranged, they lose their effectiveness.  When attaching a unit such as an interrogator chaplain or Librarian, it's best to attach him to a larger squad. Everyone gets the bonus.

BigGumbo, CC terminators are worth taking, even if they don't have ranged weaponry.  It just makes deployment that more important.  You find a spot where you ensure your terminators will stay employed. Places such as ADLs and concentrations of units.  Pick the right spot (possibly their objective), and your opponent will come to you.

Everyone gets a bonus... against one target (two if you're split-firing someone.) It really just isn't efficient. You have more than a quarter of your army's allotted points capable of only hurting one unit at a time. The rest of your army is going to have a hard time making up the difference. Against MSU, you're going to have an even harder time. The reason DW did so well in 5th (after the FAQ) wasn't because of their ability to kill stuff, it was their ability to survive. 2+/3++ did a good job of taking enemy fire, add in the fact that they were fearless, you have a unit that's going to hold/contest an objective until the last man.

 

 

Aegnor,  a 10 man tact squad with a drop pod can give you the same fire power as ten tactical terminators (20 bolter shots).  While you can only double tap at 12", the drop pod gives you the ability to place them within 12" of your enemy.  Are the rest of their stats the same, no. However, my point is that I can get 20 bolter shots for 175 pts (3.5 terminators).

 

In regards to DWK vs regular terminator. I do agree that their powered up attack gives them a huge bonus. However, it is for 1 TURN. You get one shot to kill another unit or tank.  Afterward, they have a max strength 6.  THs have strength 8 every turn.  This allows you to glance everything (LRs, Monoliths,...) Also, regular terminators can take Chain Fists (which I recommend taking 1). In regards to +1 Toughness, it's awesome in CC; however, your models may get spread out as they are clearing out enemy units. I normally lost base-to-base contact when moving my models to get base contact with unengaged units.   When not in CC, it's great against hordes. Let's see those flashlights roll a 6. Against a plasma cannon or a vindicator cannon, you are just making it easier for your opponent to place the template.

 

Remember though, that against a PC or vindi, you have a 3++. I'm not saying ignore templates, but it is something to consider when deciding to move in B2B or not.

[Brother Immolator]

Belial + Deathwing knights = Dead everything in CC.

This combo is especially usefull now with the proliferation of Monstrus Creatures that must be removed from the board ASAP.

I had a six man unit in a LRC with Belial and libby. Once the blackknights unleased their bombs on a bloodthirster the charging unit of knights took it in a single turn with their maces on. One hit is all they need, MOCs have no eternal warrior.

Larger than 6 man squads should only be used in transports or with mixed loadouts too.

A ten man squad that deepstrikes is too large a footprint to safely deepstrike. Belial is mandatory here as well as at least three SS guys to keep plasma at bay.

I will be using the new vengefull bunny hoping formation that seems to be legit now. Namely Belial+Libby with gate of infinity. Against squisy targets a six man unit with stormbolters seems to be a funny prospect.

Regular terminators are arguably better than DWKs. For a couple of reasons.

DWK
Maces are AP 4. When playing against MEQ, this gives them an armor
save. I realize they attack at regular initiative, but most long range
units you are attacking will be in cover so your first round will be at
I1 anyway. The supercharge is nice, but it only lasts 1 round. All DW
models are AP2 and AP3. Lightning claws even have an extra attack. In
close combat you can chose who you want to lose first. Playing against a
horde army like IG, I would lose the hammers first. Playing against
more terminators, I would lose the lightning claws.

DWK
do have WS5 which gives you an advantage over regular terminators;
however, a TH/SS has a better chance than a DWK of killing a tact
marine.

(prob of hit)*(prob of wound)*(opp armor save) = probability of unsaved wound

TH: 216*(3/6)*(5/6)*(6/6) = 90/216 = 41.7%

Mace: 216*(4/6)*(5/6)*(2/6) = 40/216 = 18.5%

The big difference is in the AP4 against 3+ Armor

Most
importantly, DW can be troop choices. With so many objective based
missions, having a unit that can clear an objective, and hold it gives
you flexibility. I have used DWKs with Belial. In 1 game, I would have
won if Belial's squad had been scoring.

Have you taken into account the difference on WS and STR?

Or are you using the same for both the mace and the TH hammer?

Also a Tac marine is WS4 and that means he will 'eat it' more easily from a knight.

Dont know jack of mathematics

With all due respect, but if you use deathwing knights against non chaos 3+ models / to clear objectives or as a distraction unit, sorry but you are using them wrong.

Their job is to take out things like other terminators and monstrus creatures or HQ retinues.

The fact that they wear bonewhite terminator armor and can deepstrike doesnt mean that they can and will do the tasks set out for the rest of their brethren, they are a special unit for special uses....Ok that somehow sounds SO WRONG!

Remember
though, that against a PC or vindi, you have a 3++. I'm not saying
ignore templates, but it is something to consider when deciding to move
in B2B or not.

And better toughness to help you srug off the wound in case you fail that 3++

Not for the vindie obviously :p

[march10k]

march10k, I disagree with using two five man squads. In fifth edition, you could only take 5 man terminator squads. After taking casualties, you were left with a 2 man squad. Whether in CC or ranged, they lose their effectiveness.

You have every right to be wrong

After two casualties, you usually had a scoring CML with a spare 2+/3++ wound...that's not ineffective at all! Anyway, it's often said that DW's achilles heel is low model count. It's not. It's low scoring unit count. Two units of five can be in two places at once, one unit of ten cannot. Two units of five can charge two targets. One unit of ten usually cannot, and pays a price when it does.

I'm not against having 1-2 bonus terminators in a squad, points permitting. I'm only saying 2x5>1x10.