Making Deathwing Work in 6th?

[Stefoserpent]

Hello guys,

 

 First of all, my apologies for starting a new topic for DW, but I did so because i could not find satisfying answers, and because I don't see many discussions about them lately.

  

 I am playing Blood Angels, but currently I am simply struggling to make a decent and competitive list using any power-armored codex available. In this search of mine, I just had to examine the latest book of the SM world, the C:DA.

 Many good stuff, but personally, I did not find anything that could make DA a top-tier army of the current meta ( nothing comparable to Necron Wraith-spam lists or IG related monstrosities). However, I believe that the codex has much potential because of it's many small details.

 

 The thing that caught my eye is the DW termies and/or the Belial lists. I am not sure why, but I believe that DW are currently a very underestimated part of the DA codex, outshined by the Ravenwing units. As true as this might be, I would really like to discuss with you the potential of a DW list, and how it can be used in competitive gameplay.

 

 So, why DW?

 

Weil, to begin with, the DW Assault rule is plain awesome, and is perhaps the only thing that gives DW a solid excuse to be used. Since there is the ability to DS 20 termies from the 1st turn of the game, that means that the opponent will have very little time to react and/or prepare a counter attack for them. A solid DW list actually relies on the pressure it puts on the enemy, and the fact that they will, probably, prove themselves resilient enough to withstand the enemy's firepower and/or assault. 

 

 In other words, you get to place tanky units right in the enemy's face, from the beginning of the game.

 Aside from that, the DW Assault rule means that these terminators will make full use of their points cost, because they will have the longest game presence possible. While other Marines can only hope that their termies will start dealing damage ( or come from reserves )  from the 2nd turn and after, the DW have the added bonus of having much more solid presence on the battlefield.

 

 Furthermore, another big advantage is that DW can have a combination of shooting and assault equipment, automatically making them superior to all other terminators available (even better than SW termies). Being able to put a heavy weapon shielded behind cc specialists is great indeed and it means that the squad can become somewhat more " all around", rather than being limited to either shooting or cc specialization. 

 

 Vengeful Strike and Split fire are there simply to reinforce the unit's shooting potential. The only real use for these rules is the heavy weapon of the squad, but it nothing to laugh about. Vengeful strike increases their alpha-strike potential, while Split fire comes handy in the following turns of the game.

 

 

 The damage output of the squad is obviously bigger in CC, and that's why the squad should be always melee oriented. I believe that the only shooting element of the unit should come from the sole heavy weapon in it. Anyway, with the ability to DS on the 1st turn, they will get to CC very fast.

 

 

 Considering the above, I come to the conclusion that a DW list can really find a place in competitive gaming. There are few other armies that can put so much pressure in the early game, and there are even less that can place units as resilient AND lethal as the Terminators. So, why aren't they used that often? Are they lacking somewhere else? Why are DW lists considered a secondary option to Ravenwing ones?

[Boniface]

There are a number of reason DW doesn't work or appear as often at the moment.

Deathwing was the only way to play DA until this addition everyone has decided to try other things for a while now they're feasible.

 

Problems with all out deathwing.

Model count you will always be outnumbered and shot to death because even though you can deep strike you can't assault until the following turn. 2+ 5++ just isn't going to cut it against an entire army's worth of shooting.

Deep striking is still fairly inaccurate, so it can go wrong. Lots of margin for error.

Slow moving units if objectives are far away/enemy is fast it's basically game over.

Personally I never know how to optimise shooty seems right with deep striking twin-linked but shields give you 3++.

I dunno they're not that great. Sure maybe 1-2 units is useful.

[TheBiasedBloodAngel]

Personally i think Death-wing will never be anywhere near the top tier simply because you are always going to be outnumbered and i think they are overpriced. You just cant have a good core amount of scoring dudes unless you take multiple 5 man squads and at only 5 dudes a piece it doesn't take much to get rid of them. 6th edition evolves around objectives, therefore if you want to be top tier army your going to need a lot of troops and death wing simply don't have a enough. I mean compare 30 odd scoring terminators max in a 2k game to 200+ cultist spam your not going to get the objectives. The only other option is to go for secondary objectives, secure 1 or 2 primary objectives and wipe out as much of your opponents troops as possible. But i don't think they are that capable. I love the models and the idea of a full termy army deep striking turn 1 but they are no way top tier tournament competitive, they lack troops and defence against fliers end of story. keep in mind dw terminator + th/ss is 49 points thats 9 more points than generic marines, and you cant think of your opponent as being castled up and stationary allowing you to just pop up and lay down the hurt. i mean how would this list fair againt cron air, typhus plague zombie spam (210 plague zombies = 900points) or an infiltrate, scout heavy list. you would be spread thin and just get overwhelmed. DW Suck hands down.

[Rizara]

Not to mention terminators in game have never been anywhere as good as they are in the fluff. Second edition was probably the closest they have ever gotten to the fluff.

 

DW will alway s be outnumbered the trick is to come in, hit as hard as you can in the first turn or two after that the games will go down hill fast. Some are suggesting taking two crusaders with Belial and a hard hitting melee squad n it, a squad of knights in the second crusader and deep strike in two units in on turn two when the crusaders hit the biggest and nastiest units the enemy has. You are basically only giving them two land raiders to shoot at first turn, and then hitting the enemy as hard as you possibly can in turn two with your entire army.

[[TA]Typher]

With the new reserve rules isn't it impossible to DS your WHOLE army? Which means some people have to footslog, or you have to buy a Landraider?

[Skylar D'Forge]

Remember though, you can always water your deathwing down, with the allies rule how about 1200-1500 points deathwing and 800-500 points imperial guard, that gives you access to Valerie squadrons and cheap infantry! boom you've go your hard hitting back bone supported by air and lots of cheap shooty guys!

[Rizara]

That is debatable. You can't put your entire army in reserves, but death wing assault isn't exactly putting your army in reserves, they are death wing assaulting so you never make a reserve roll for them, they just show up on turn one or two, so the death wing army actually gets around the reserve rule because they aren't technically in reserve. It's a heated topic but based on the English language and the way it's worded, it makes sense.

 

However as mentioned it will be very unlikely that you will field nothing but death wing terminators as you will often want some support either in vehicles, dreads or mobile firepower or anti hordes support. That being said it is possible to make an entire death wing assault army, your will just have to play your cards right when you choose the turn they come, where they come in, and what you take in the mix of squads and hit the right targets and pray your dice roll hot.

[pueriexdeus]

Deathwing are just as good if not better now that in C:DA V4.

 

No, most people cant play a DW pure army, that does not mean they cant be played. It's all about how you play them.

 

I recall losing Belial & Command Sqd to a DS mishap and still winning the game. Prior to the better Belial DS I was still putting them on a dime and freaking out the OP.

 

Now with ten man Sqds, Oh Ya.

 

This thread has me making up a Belial, 30 TDA, Mortis list right now. 1850 points

[[TA]Typher]

 

That is debatable. You can't put your entire army in reserves, but death wing assault isn't exactly putting your army in reserves, they are death wing assaulting so you never make a reserve roll for them, they just show up on turn one or two, so the death wing army actually gets around the reserve rule because they aren't technically in reserve. It's a heated topic but based on the English language and the way it's worded, it makes sense.

 

However as mentioned it will be very unlikely that you will field nothing but death wing terminators as you will often want some support either in vehicles, dreads or mobile firepower or anti hordes support. That being said it is possible to make an entire death wing assault army, your will just have to play your cards right when you choose the turn they come, where they come in, and what you take in the mix of squads and hit the right targets and pray your dice roll hot.

Ugh.. horrible grey area.

 

If you are correct then even drop pod'd Dreads would benifeit from this, making a whole DW army able to arrive at the end of turn 2. I like it. It was possible in 5th and should be valid now too.

 

 

However I can see ugly debates regarding this because it of the RAW. It doesn't specifically state that this isn't a reserve roll. IT also doesn't specifically state it is either. Unlike the apothecary load-out debate this seems even more oblique.

 

ugh.. what to do.. what to do.

 

Quick someone give me a compelling argument one way or the other!

[Artemid]

Deathwing are just as good if not better now that in C:DA V4.

 

No, most people cant play a DW pure army, that does not mean they cant be played. It's all about how you play them.

 

I recall losing Belial & Command Sqd to a DS mishap and still winning the game. Prior to the better Belial DS I was still putting them on a dime and freaking out the OP.

 

Now with ten man Sqds, Oh Ya.

 

This thread has me making up a Belial, 30 TDA, Mortis list right now. 1850 points

 

Do you have more lists/examples of how to properly play them?

 

I've found so far with the new dex that unless things align right with the 2 raider/4 squad list, the increase in DW price (and closing what really probably were loopholes with underpriced other units) means you just can't get enough models out, and if you do you have zero fire support. The pair of preds and 'phoons in the old hammer list were really helpful, and I think the increase in DW price has not been proportionate to their getting better.

[Disruptor_fe404]

My pure DW list works out well in the local meta. Except for maybe when I get really unlucky rolling the 3d6 Ld test against the Doom.

 

It's a max-size squad with Belial and a Libby (divination for Prescience and telekinesis for a chance to roll Gate), two Command Squads (Fortitude and Deathwing Banners) and another squad of plain Deathwing.

 

Yes, my meta frowns on Troops choices.

[march10k]

 

A solid DW list actually relies on the pressure it puts on the enemy, and the fact that they will, probably, prove themselves resilient enough to withstand the enemy's firepower and/or assault.

 

To start with...there's more than a little bit of hubris in pontificating on what makes a successful deathwing list when you have no experience playing deathwing.  As for the statement itself...DWA does allow you to sieze the initiative and force the enemy to react.  But that's a one-shot deal.  It puts him in react-mode, but it doesn't keep him there.  As such, it's nowhere near enough to make deathwing viable.  Deathwing is extremely resilient against enemy assault...but not at all resilient against small arms fire...Your average MEQ army doesn't have enough small arms to reliably kill terminators, but several other armies, starting with IG, do.

 

 

 Aside from that, the DW Assault rule means that these terminators will make full use of their points cost, because they will have the longest game presence possible. While other Marines can only hope that their termies will start dealing damage ( or come from reserves ) from the 2nd turn and after, the DW have the added bonus of having much more solid presence on the battlefield.

 

True enough, when compared to other terminators.  But the truth is that, while DWA gets the termies in the enemy's face on turn one (if you so choose), there are several problems with that.  First, it puts the termies in rapid-fire range on turn one, and the bane of terminators is small arms fire spam.  Second, it doesn't allow the termies to assault on arrival, so they're still not getting down to business in any hurry. Third, after arrival, they're walking everywhere, which the opposite of "having game presence."

 

 

Furthermore, another big advantage is that DW can have a combination of shooting and assault equipment, automatically making them superior to all other terminators available (even better than SW termies).

Agreed, but only because the GK termies got nerfed to AP3.

 

 

Vengeful Strike and Split fire are there simply to reinforce the unit's shooting potential. The only real use for these rules is the heavy weapon of the squad

 

Wrong.  Vengeful strike and split fire make tactical terminators relevant again.  Eight twinlinked stormbolters and a pair of twinlined heavy weapons on arrival is no laughing matter.  And, since deepstrikers subsequently have to walk everywhere, eight S4 shots (per 5 termies) that don't have to target the same thing that the heavy weapon does...well, that does help out a lot with the horde control that is the deathwing's biggest problem.  Being outnumbered 2-1 by MEQs is manageable, we overmatch MEQs 5-1 in melee.  It's the army with 150+ models that we can't deal with, they literally have more bodies than we have bullets.  There's nothing wrong with a squad of four assault terminators plus one heavy weapon, but dismissing tactical terminators as useless or inferior is 5th edition thinking. 

 

 

The damage output of the squad is obviously bigger in CC, and that's why the squad should be always melee oriented. I believe that the only shooting element of the unit should come from the sole heavy weapon in it. Anyway, with the ability to DS on the 1st turn, they will get to CC very fast.

 

Ah, here we have two problems.  First is the idea that tactical terminators are not good in melee.  They don't hit any less hard than thunderhammers, and unless the enemy has an AP2 melee weapon, the storm shield is irrelevant.  The second problem is the idea that deepstriking guarantees a steady diet of CC.  The problem is that the terminators are on foot.  No enemy unit in the game is slower than them, and therefore melee is at the discretion of the enemy squad.  They always have the option of running away, which is a brilliant idea if you only have a CML to shoot them with.  The squads closest to your terminators run away, while the rest of his army shoots them.  In reality, only land raider mounted terminators can guarantee that they'll be able to run down a fleeing enemy, and even that depends on the land raider not blowing up!

 

 

I come to the conclusion that a DW list can really find a place in competitive gaming.

Though your analysis is wrong, your conclusion is correct.  Deathwing can be very competitive in the hands of a tactical genius.  The challenge with deathwing is to identify the critical unit or two in the enemy list and destroy them early (so much better if it's an ultra elite and therefore ultra expensive target, because it truly doesn't matter what it is, it's toast).  After that, you can kill at your leisure while shifting your attention to the game's objectives.  In terms of marking an enemy unit or two for death, and then following through on the threat, there is no better army than deathwing.  We have the ability to mass our entire list against a single enemy unit (or more, if we so desire) on turn two.  Here is how I do it:

 

My list consists of two crusaders and four squads at 1850 points...plus a techmarine carrying a power field generator.  One crusader contains Belial with Assault terminators. The other one contains deathwing knights.  It doesn't matter which one has the techmarine.  The other two squads are tactical terminator squads with assault cannons, DWAing on turn two.  I always let the enemy go first because I want to see his deployment before I drop my two raiders.  My deployment depends on two things:  How can I minimize his anti-AV14 fire (since he has nothing else to shoot at!), and what do I want to kill on turn two.  On turn one, the crusaders drive flat out towards the target.  On turn two, the two tactical squads DWA, using Belial's telehomer.  Next is four twinlinked assault cannons, four hurribolters, and eight twinlinked stormbolters, followed by belial's squad and the knights charging out of their crusaders.  Enemy deathstar units just simply evaporate, or, if there isn't such a thing, each charging squad can munch a separate target, while the shooting might be more distributed.  After that, it depends.  I might mount a squad and rush back to camp an objective on my side of the board, but most of the army then stays together to maintain local superiority.  That is how

Deathwing wins in this edition.

 

 

So, why aren't they used that often?

 

 

Two reasons.  As has been mentioned, the idea of ravenwing and green armies that actually win games is a novel one, so DA players who were forced to play deathwing in the past are looking for a change of pace.  Second, because what worked in 5th doesn't work in 6th, and deathwing players who fail to evolve...fail. 

[Dafoo]

Tears welled up in my eyes after reading your post March10k. There is nothing else I could say.

[Onisuzume]

Typher" post="3337202" timestamp="1364427841"]

With the new reserve rules isn't it impossible to DS your WHOLE army? Which means some people have to footslog, or you have to buy a Landraider?

Well, half your army will be Belial+Command Squad with Fortitude Standard, the other half will be two 10-men terminator squads, possibly.

With Belial on the table means that the two remaining squads won't scatter if DSing near him (Telly porta homie). Leaving you with a highly concentrated blob of 2+/5++(or better) FNP.

Deathwing are just as good if not better now that in C:DA V4.

In some ways, yes.

In other ways, no.

For one, with Belial's cost being upped, we get even fewer bodies in a pure DW list.

This thread has me making up a Belial, 30 TDA, Mortis list right now. 1850 points

I prefer my lists at 1.5k points, but yeah, right on.

Your average MEQ army doesn't have enough small arms to reliably kill terminators, but several other armies, starting with IG, do.

And how many shots are we looking at then?

Ten? Twenty? Thirty? To kill a 2+/5++ FNP?

[Azoriel]

A minor quibble - it's worth noting that, even though 6e Belial costs more, you can still simulate 4e Belial by getting a company master in terminator armor (albeit his power sword isn't MC, and you'll need to pay extra if you want to give him different weapon options).

[Artemid]

A minor quibble - it's worth noting that, even though 6e Belial costs more, you can still simulate 4e Belial by getting a company master in terminator armor (albeit his power sword isn't MC, and you'll need to pay extra if you want to give him different weapon options).

 

But nobody wants 4E Belial's stats, because they were kind of awful for who he was supposed to be, he was just dirt cheap for unlocking scoring Termies.

[Azoriel]

 

A minor quibble - it's worth noting that, even though 6e Belial costs more, you can still simulate 4e Belial by getting a company master in terminator armor (albeit his power sword isn't MC, and you'll need to pay extra if you want to give him different weapon options).

 

But nobody wants 4E Belial's stats, because they were kind of awful for who he was supposed to be, he was just dirt cheap for unlocking scoring Termies.

Much agreed; I was only pointing it out for those who might find fault with Belial's increased cost (though I don't think anyone is complaining).

[Artemid]

A minor quibble - it's worth noting that, even though 6e Belial costs more, you can still simulate 4e Belial by getting a company master in terminator armor (albeit his power sword isn't MC, and you'll need to pay extra if you want to give him different weapon options).

But nobody wants 4E Belial's stats, because they were kind of awful for who he was supposed to be, he was just dirt cheap for unlocking scoring Termies.

Much agreed; I was only pointing it out for those who might find fault with Belial's increased cost (though I don't think anyone is complaining).

Sure, but given it's a thread about the Deathwing, no Belial means no Troops termies which kinda defeats the whole purpose.

[march10k]

A minor quibble - it's worth noting that, even though 6e Belial costs more, you can still simulate 4e Belial by getting a company master in terminator armor (albeit his power sword isn't MC, and you'll need to pay extra if you want to give him different weapon options).

Not mastercrafted?  If only that were the biggest difference.  Fleshbane.  The Sword of Silence wounds even wraithlords on 2+!

[Onisuzume]

 

 

A minor quibble - it's worth noting that, even though 6e Belial costs more, you can still simulate 4e Belial by getting a company master in terminator armor (albeit his power sword isn't MC, and you'll need to pay extra if you want to give him different weapon options).

Not mastercrafted?  If only that were the biggest difference.  Fleshbane.  The Sword of Silence wounds even wraithlords on 2+!

 

 

Hm... that's funny... I don't remember Belial having that ability on his sword back in 4th edition.

Anyhow, I'm not saying that Belial isn't worth the cost, I'm saying that because of his cost we can afford fewer bodies in pure DW.

[Azoriel]

Hm... that's funny... I don't remember Belial having that ability on his sword back in 4th edition.

Anyhow, I'm not saying that Belial isn't worth the cost, I'm saying that because of his cost we can afford fewer bodies in pure DW.

Of course! Nobody is saying he isn't worth it - I was just pointing out people could still get the economy class model if they really wanted.

But this was assuming Company Commander in termie armor = scoring termie squads. (Not sure why I assumed that was the case.) Given my incorrect assumption in this matter, I will retract my claim that you could use the Company Commander as a cheaper version Belial.

[Brother Immolator]

The deathwing assault reserve...problem.... has been adressed (and correctly IMHO) in the recent adepticon FAQ. Now thats a semi official rulling but I expect it to become official come next betta te....Excuse me errata.

Anyways, deathwing has been top tier in tournaments in the States and Europe during the 4-5th edition (some of our users here had been finalists), so now that they got even better there is no reason why they shouldnt. More so with the balancing that seems to be the new codex treand.

Yes they are an elite army and they require skill, nobody said it will be easy. We play Dark Angels right?

[Artemid]

The deathwing assault reserve...problem.... has been adressed (and correctly IMHO) in the recent adepticon FAQ. Now thats a semi official rulling but I expect it to become official come next betta te....Excuse me errata.

Anyways, deathwing has been top tier in tournaments in the States and Europe during the 4-5th edition (some of our users here had been finalists), so now that they got even better there is no reason why they shouldnt. More so with the balancing that seems to be the new codex treand.

Yes they are an elite army and they require skill, nobody said it will be easy. We play Dark Angels right?

I just disagree they've really gotten that much better, at least not proportionately with the cost increase AND the cost increase of everything that used to be their backline.

[Isiah]

Hmm... The subject of this topic is "Making Deathwing work in 6th?" – not: "Are DW termies better now than they were?". .

Whether they are better now or not has no relevance here as as always we can only use what we have now anyway.

Cheers

I

[Artemid]

Hmm... The subject of this topic is "Making Deathwing work in 6th?" – not: "Are DW termies better now than they were?". .

Whether they are better now or not has no relevance here as as always we can only use what we have now anyway.

Cheers

I

Fair point Isiah!