Hellturkey: Plucking their feathers

[StJude]

While it does appear to be RAW, it feels a little beardy and not something I would feel comfortable enforcing.

If they want to bring 2+ Heldrakes, then they can play by the rules. I have absolutely no sympathy. It isn't like they can complain about Tournament play --- I can't think of any tournys I've been to that had 3-level ruins anyway.

I suppose I'm a tad bitter that the Internet would have you believe the entire CSM codex is 'supposedly' being propped up by that one unit. I do not own a hellchicken nor will I ever. Not that it would be in poor taste-- I just don't need the crutch. It is good at what it does, but not overtly. It just makes me sad that people don't play at 2" spread formations... If everyone played spread out, then the internet wouldn't have siezed upon the turkey as an amazing unit. It would fly around only getting 4 hits per-template.

But no one plays spread out with hollow formations. Tragedy of the Commons. So the poultry has an overinflated reputation because people let it kill 6+ of their MEQ in one shot, a condition which should never ever happen unless you are post-melee.

So the Heldrake gets tripled spammed in netlists, and is hailed as the only worthy thing in the codex. Too bad this rant won't change anything Plus it's in the wrong spot lol-- but the CSM subforum of the B&C has a much.... different ...atmosphere than the BA subforum.

I quite liked your answer here, so I hope you don't mind me starting a new thread to prevent things going off topic in the other?

I also wanted to further the discussion on dealing with these beasts, as you stated, they proliferate the scene. My meta is flyer heavy with FMCs, Cron airforce, Vendetta allies and these blasted things.

One of the reasons they see such use is that my area was quick to jump all over ADLs early on and so anything that ignores cover has increased in value significantly. (Also means there are a lot of TFCs floating about, or at least more than I remember)

Also, our meta shifted to large blocks of infantry, this meant that template weapons also increased in value. (amongst other high rates of fire choices)

All these factors mean that in my meta, the Hellturkey is an excellent choice and begins to live up to the hype when employed correctly. Some armies don't have the luxury of always spreading out if they are infantry heavy and space is limited due to size and terrain.

As BA players, it means having to also be careful on deepstriking and risking a crappy run roll to spread out and forgoing shooting to do so. Annoying when you want to melta something.

So, what ways can we as BA players deal with this new threat?

I for one am playing around with the idea of meching up again and have a list that is quite similar to Mort's winning Veteran's list. I have a lot of twin linked Assault cannons to maximise shooting and need at least two SRs to deal with the flyer threat. But I am meching up for more reasons than the Hellturkey.

You make an excellent point about unit cohesion though and one I am going to add to my tournament notes primer that I go over on tourney day. It's a mistake I don't want to keep making.

Luckily, the TOs in my area put a lot of thought into terrain, so I have a decent chance of multi-level buildings making a showing. At the very least I would get two floors and can at least place an objective on the top (no restrictions here by our TOs either) and spread out between both floors to minimize damage. I like it, and something else I will be adding to my pre-tourney primer notes.

We also have 1K Vipers excellent suggestion of a bastion, which is quite good and often overlooked. It makes me wonder about a skyshield landing pad these days, 4+ invulnerable is pretty nice....and I can fit predators up there too :P

I am also now reconsidering shield of sanguinius as a viable power, coupled with a priest. If spread out properly, maybe I only lose three guys. Hopefully less. And again, not just because of the hellturkey, but because of the change in my meta to template weapons and AP3 threats. (Plus my decision to mech up)

So my question is, what else is there?

Thoughts in general?

[Hrimfar]

Shield of sanguinius gives a 5+ coversave IIRC. The hellturky ignores cover, so that would not help. Same problem with the aegis and the skyshield.

 

To be honest I have had some issues with the hellturky myself, and the only way I can see to battle this is spreading out your infantry a lot and using flyers of your own to blast those chickens out of the sky. Flyers with turrets might be the best choice, since you can then fly them up behind the turky and blast it in the back and at the same time not having to worry about the vector strikes.

[Alyssis]

Hrimfar; Are you sure about the skyshield? The rules says that units have a 4+ invulnerable save against enemy shooting attacks.. Unless you dont count the template as a shooting attack..

[Zynk Kaladin]

Wow, CAG that is an excellent post.  Ever since I read your formation guide and adopted its practices I've had nothing but great success against templates, blasts, and even large blasts.

 

I've never faced the hellduck before, so my opinions are purely theoretical (worth their weigh in boogers), but I would do thus with my standard army list:

 

My core army, or the people who start on the board, usually always is 2x10 jumpies with a priest, Mephiston, and allied Rune Priest (libby works too).  The Rune Priest has Storm Caller(the one that gives 5+ cover saves), but as Hrimfar points out, the hellduck ignores it.  Regardless, in a correct formation 3 helldrakes worth of fire might severely wound 1 squad unless FNP does a darn good job.  I'm a decorated veteran of the receiving end of IG gunlines(THE THINGS I'VE SEEN)... half my core army dead after a single turn is extremely cute.

 

What happens next turn? 

 

-Stormchicken(s) eat hellducks. 

-Laugh as Meph and friends (fragiosos, death co, you name it) proceed to curbstomp their ground forces.

-Objectives, objectives, objectives.

[IK Viper]

Stormravens are your friend...  2 reasons, one of which is quite obvious, another of which no so much.

 

1. A skyfire twin linked MM is a helldrake's worst nightmare,  I also favor the Twl Las Can turret since you really want be able to explode the turkeys instead of glancing it down becasue it has It Will Not Die :-(

 

2. Stormravens are still transports,  the helldrake is death on PA and really hurts BA by killing off scoring troops with ease, no troops = auto loose, so it is often worht while to put some troops inside the Ravens to give them shelter from  the Baal Flamers, but nothing expensive, Ravens do die :-( 

 

I am no master of fighting the helldrakes, here after refered to as HD, but I do face them alot in my Meta and must build to beat them in order to be competative.  There are some tactics that I try to use basically every time I play HD and they do help alot.

 

1. Keep your stuff in boxes/reserves => Rhinos, Bastions, Stormravens, Landraiders, and reserves are all your friend,  if the HD has no targets worth going after then it is reduced to trying to kill AV targets with a S6 flamer...  at this point it looks pretty stupid...  What you fear in this set up is the dreaded 1-2 combo where it Vector Strikes a Rhino open and then flames the contents (360 fire arc is absurd but it its what the accountants at GW want)  for this reason it is best to keep your vehicles 36 inches or more away from the opposite board edge, thus insuring that you will not take a vector strike (VS) before turn 3 on those vehicles.  If the HD moves on agresively you may be able to move under it in its turn and deny the VS.  Keep in mind that your are buying time here, you are wanting to slow down and fristrate the HD's by giving them fewer turns to burn squads and giving your anti-air elements time to clean them out.  Note: if you have Land Raiders ignore this post and roll forward with impunity, just make sure you make combat when your guys get out or they are toast... literally, and try to challenge/manipulate the combat to end in the enemy phase as always. 

 

2. Bastion as a bunker => a HD VS cannot hurt a bastion (AV14)  so you halve its kill potential against units inside but at the same time it can flame the fire points and get d6 hits on the unit inside,  this is bad except for the fact that you get to pick who takes the woulds inside,  anyting with a 2+ save can tank this for you, or Corbulo with his 2+ FNP, while also confering a FNP bubble 6 inches off of the BASTION... which is never a bad thing.  This can be done to protect Dev. Squads inside or scoring units camping a back objective which a HD is usually perfect at cleaning out.  Just a thought.  IMHO a Quad Gun or Ic. Las is not really that useful here becasue who ever goes on the roof if bunched up for a flame template pretty bad, in addition to that, if you don't kill the HD with Interceptor Fire a VS is S7 AP 3 and ignores cover which means your gun is toast next turn. 

 

3. Dogfighting => to prefice this, I run 2 Stormravens in tournaments almost as standard now.  some people may not do this or don't have these models but for those that do they are obviously awsome vs HD.  Blood Strikes are great but need 5+ to pen a HD in the front, what you really want is to get on their tail (AV 10) and then blow it away with S8 AP1 fire when possible (i know this is a duh but hear me out)  In order to get to that back armor you need the HD to turn left or right and exposing its butt to one board edge, which it will probably have to do in order to stay on the board if you hold back in turn 1 and 2 and it wants to engage/ be effective.  You want to come on the board after the HD has made this turn so you can get the back AV shots, to this end, the turret is a great weapon for flying on past the HD's possible flying arc next turn and butt shotting it while moving forward to deposite your scoring cargo.  If you come on the table first, don't be afraid to come on the table at a steep angle staying within 12 inches of your own board edge to prevent a VS on the next turn, taking some shots from long range (why I prefer the Lascannon over the Ast. Can) and then leaving the board in your next turn to almost insure that the HD has come on and been forced to make its turn, allowing you to roll in and smoke it when you come back.  You need to have air superiority by turn 5 in order to get your troops out safely and score, if the Ravens can do this they have done their job.  I always take the Hurricane Bolters to up the threat range on my birds, on back armor 10 it will also do a number on a HD, that 5++ is rough but in that situation you can swarm it with glances more times then not.   

 

4. Deploy stuff in the corners => THIS ONLY APPLIES TO VEHICLES as the torrent flamer can reach into a corner and kill you without trapping the HD into leaving the table next turn.  If you take Mech fire support units, troops in transports, etc.  the HD VS is almost impossible to avoid but make sure you position yourself in such a way that in order to VS you they will have to move off the table and will therefore loose the use of their Baal Flamer.  This is especially good for Transports as the worst case senario is the VS which explodes a vehicle and then the template fries your bunched up passengers.  Use the board edge to force the HD to either Hover or leave if it wants to engage that target.  Also remember that in order to VS the HD must be able to pass over the target and place its base down without being within 1 inch of enemy models,  blocking tactics can be used to block VS even in the middle of the board if you are 30 + inches away from the HD  

 

5. Skyshield Landing Pad Cheese => it is really cheesy but so is a HD, deploy a Skyshied LP and keep your stuff on it within a FNP bubble and do the "Come at me bro" dance...  But you better get FB and have some objectives you can cover close by becasue once you leave that pad your BBQ    

 

6. Long Range Fire Support => if you can get FB and force a Chaos player to push forward alot of times they do not have the mobility to beat BA,  I know that this is a broad statement that doubtless has MANY EXCEPTIONS, but must of the Chaos players I face are banking on the HD's cleaning out the enemy and are content to build their ground forces to hold their board half at best. If you can limit the HD's and make them push, most lists are not fast enough to cover forward objectives to win (most of the other fast stuff in the CSM dex is also in the Fast Attack section (go figure) it's in the name I guess :-)  Also, stuff that can shoot at least 36 inches can hit your enemy while avoiding that turn 2 VS which is nice. 

 

 

The way I see it, as a BA in order to beat HD's we either do one of 2 things, Mech up, play small ball and win in a cagey war all about angles, board control and denial, or we can go all jumpers and try and get to CC before the HD's have time to do much,  either with ASM squads or a Dante Wing, which completely ignores HD's but must fear Plasma, which Oblits are all toting...  I personnaly go with the Meched up option since I can play Hammer and Anvil and still have a chance to win.  Shout out to the Furioso Libratian though, he is a beast  at helping in a Jumper Push list and he does not care about Plasma at all.       

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Wow, CAG that is an excellent post. Ever since I read your formation guide and adopted its practices I've had nothing but great success against templates, blasts, and even large blasts.

Thanks mate! I'm glad I can help, warm fuzzies and whatnot haha. Sadly, that Formations Article was on my B&C blog, so now it is lost in the warp. I will probably re-write it soon, and post it properly on the Tactics Subforum where is should have gone in the first place. Lesson learned! heh

I am no master of fighting the helldrakes, here after refered to as HD, but I do face them alot in my Meta and must build to beat them in order to be competative. There are some tactics that I try to use basically every time I play HD and they do help alot.

Viper the above post was awesome. Actual table experience versus HDs and explaining what has been working is a really great share.

Your passing thought about the Librarian Dreadnought really has my interest piqued! In 5th ed, the meltaspam rendered them fairly points inefficient...with the shifted meta, I may have to re-look at them. That unit may have some merit once again-- just really expensive. So sad when I have to actually pay for my toys.

Edit: Also, in actual contribution to the thread: If you run Mechanized BA, then taking an Allied Dark Angel Land Raider with a Power Field Generator Character inside can boost protection for your AV11 considerably. The bubble is smackin' tiny, only 3" .... so don't clump up if facing Manticores lol. But you can use Land Speeders or Razorbacks as front screens to keep melee and melta off of the LR. The combo doesn't come cheap, no sir. But a DWTCS with BoD can turn a Crusader into a Dakka Machine while still providing that 4++ to the AV around it. Again, really points heavy (read: 690pts for TDA Lib, 5 DW Terms, & LR ... or 510pts for a PA Lib, PA Command Squad, & LR) but hey-- we're the good guys right? We pay for our good stuff. Maybe the fact that Dark Angel LR can take Dozer Blades, has the Venerable Rule, and has 28 twinlinked shots with Preferred Enemy Chaos Marines might distract you into running that Shock Combo Probably still puts it firmly in the "for fun, not competition" category.

A less intensive approach might be a DA Razorback w/TLAC, PFG Libby and 5 Tacs (1PG) for 255pts. I don't like this approach as much against the HD though, because the Razorback is a much smaller model than a Land Raider. The LR can give its 3" of 4++ and not worry about the HD template hitting more than 1 attendant Razorback. A Razorback with 3" bubble is going to have too tight of a cluster of other Razors around it... just asking for Template trouble. Hmmm

[IK Viper]

about the Furioso Libby, Most CSM players I face are running Oblits as their only source of Melta (another reason to run the Bastion)  most of the troops I am seeing are Plague Marines with Plasma, backed up by Typhus, Cultists, and Havoc Squads with Autocannons or Forgefiends,  none of which can deal with AV 13 very well and is scared to death of anything S10,  enter Mr. Furioso Libby...  He can literally stand in front of an entire army with that load out and expect to have a chance to live (S7 can only glance him) add in Shield of Sang. and he is really hard to pop, and if he makes combat with Plague Marines or Typhus its lights out, game over. Typhus is T5, I 1, not EW, with a 5++ meaning a Furioso Librarian that gets to hit him is his worst nightmare, just don't let him hide in the sqaud as "Manreaper" is S6 armor bane (2d6 armor pen)  Unwieldly 

[dadieau]

A couple of twin linked assault cannons will allow a reasonable chance of grounding a monsterous flier. A good round of concentrated fire after should finish one of the buggers.

[IK Viper]

Helldrakes are not FMC, though they should be, right now they gain the advantages on both flyers and FMC but almost none of the disadvantages of either.  Regardless, they are classed as Flyers. 

[SamaNagol]

2" spread means nothing as you have Torrent. That means you will hit at least 4 with the template and probably 3 with the fly by. So 2 can wipe out a tactical squad or assault squad per turn.

 

Putting units in a Rhino Chasis again doesn't work. It delays the inevitable. Vector strike causing 2-4 hits on side armour at s7 ap2, then you pile out lumped together....

 

FnP reduces the damage by a third, but that will cost you a minimum 75 pts on top of your ~220pt Assault Squad. That's roughly the price of 2 of those flying things.

 

Want to see how ineffective other flyers are at killing Heldrakes? Here: http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/03/optimising-your-ig-allies-dont-take-a-v/#more-4327 And that's 3 TL Lascannons...

 

They are broken. It's not a myth or an exaggeration.x

 

Thank god the rest of the Chaos army is so lacklustre.

[Ushtarador]

Some very good posts here, I'm in a hurry so only do a short post now - the last time I played against a helldrake, my fragioso ruined his day hard. Drakes are really bad at taking out furiosos and they need to fly off the board to get a second vector strike, with melta being less common in 6th those furiosos are really amazing nowadays.

@CAG You really should reupload that formation guide you had, it helps me a ton everytime I meet any templates

@SamaNagol They are very strong no doubt, but then so are stormravens - 2 ravens can kill 2 vehicles AND wipe a squad easily, I think that's quite good too.

[knife&fork]

2" spread means nothing as you have Torrent. That means you will hit at least 4 with the template and probably 3 with the fly by. So 2 can wipe out a tactical squad or assault squad per turn.

 

Putting units in a Rhino Chasis again doesn't work. It delays the inevitable. Vector strike causing 2-4 hits on side armour at s7 ap2, then you pile out lumped together....

 

 

Thank god the rest of the Chaos army is so lacklustre.

 

 

A transport is still something as the odds of glancing it to death in the movement phase aren't super good. Plus it gives you some added mobility to make those vectors strikes less of a no brainer. 

 

The worst thing about the Heldrake IMHO is that you usually see them together with 'cron flyers. Crons seem to be the preferred ally as it fixes CSM rather lackluster troops. 

[SamaNagol]

In what realm of reality can 2 Storm Ravens Kill 2 vehicles and wipe a squad? I'm just dealing with raw numbers here. Maybe you are adding Hurricane bolters? Even then... Unlikely.

 

Can't really compare 460pts of Stormravens to 2 Heldrakes either.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Well this is a fairly amusing development.

 

 

For what it's worth; I called the rules lawyers at GW today and asked this question. The response I got was that if you have a 5 story ruin the Helldrake may target the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th levels while flying. When in hover mode it may pick any of them (fast skimmer).

 

The logic behind it was that even though you measure from the base (ground), the top/back (3rd level), is the level the Helldrake is at.

Hilarious interpretation. Good lord I would love for GW to FAQ this using this wording. "A zooming Flyer is counted as being at the 3rd level of Ruins (6" height)"

 

Because then Units on the ground-level in Ruins would be untargetable.

 

Either way I'm happy. Flyers are clearly not on the list of Units which hit any level (unless Hover), so the Heldrake is either on Ground Level (making Level 2+ immune) or on the 3rd Level (making Ground and Level 5+ immune).

 

 

[IK Viper]

I am advocating transports simply because it is another layer of protection, you want your troops off the board or in transports for as long as possible if playing Helldrake spam,  that is honestly the best way I can think of to mitigate their admittidly OP rules set at the moment, I honestly believe that if the Baal Flamer was restricted to a hull mounted firing arc the unit would be appropriatly costed.  (Though I still disagree with vector strikes ignoring cover)

 

by the way SAM, vector strikes are AP3 so they do not get a +1 on the damage chart,  they need 6's to explode transports so honestly vector strikes should not be exploding rhinos so much as glancing them out.  Which sucks but if they can't VS you till turn 3 and then must leave the board (preferably)  then your guys will live,  what you must watch out for is loosing a transport to other stuff and then getting flamed... 

 

Helldrakes are no worse then the old Flamer/Screamer spam,  which was also OP, but I will take the current meta over 27 Flamer / 27 Screamer lists any day trust me. 

 

We are the good guys after all, it takes alot more charactor / loyalty to protect the Imperium then to pull it down. 

 

The Helldrake does change the meta though, how do you think DA guys feel, Ravenwing is basically unplayable right now with the threat of Helldrakes all over the place, atleast we have a flyer that can actually hit back.  If you take Helldrakes out of the equation Ravenwing would be devistatingly good in my opinion, as it stands DA players that play in tournaments need to run Deathwing to stand up to the heat (pun intended)

[knife&fork]

Ravenwing suffer greatly from being expensive squads of 1W 3+ models. Not a good thing in 6th. The good cover saves doesn't matter against basic weapons so you can just use volume of fire to kill them.

 

They were noncompetitive straight out of the codex, the helldrake just makes it more obvious.  A bit surprising I think since CSM actually got decently priced bikes. 

 

Back on the subject of flyers...

For you guys that run dual stormravens, how do they stand up to Heldrake/Nightschyte combo lists? Or lots of vendettas? Unless there's something I overlook I can't see that end well. 

[Drunken Angel]

I see plenty of Helldrakes and the advice from all is good the Raven allows you to load troops into it and deny targets to the Helldrakes.

I run 2 Stormravens and work them with Attack Bikes or even a suicide melta squad who have done their job already.

Librarians with shield are great for mech or Ravens. 5+  no need to jink means you are shooting continuously.

Be patient wait, go second if need be to see where and how the Helldrakes go.  Most Helldrake players if allowed try to work a box flight path and circle continually flinging out that torrent template they are looking to be around 12" of a unit thats exposed.  You can predict where they will go.  You can  always dangle a bait of some sort ("I have a hell turkey and I will use it to burn up all your loyalists haha") you can see them thinking it... really!

I have baited Helldrakes into staying on the board and exposing their rear armour simply by using attack bikes.  By T3-T4 they are shot up and have usually done their first blood job.  Conventional shooting at T5 models frustrates players. Move the bikes to a position that tempts the Helldrake and forces them to stay on the board but exposing their rear armour if you still have your ravens either on the board or coming on that turn.  The Helldrake player will usually try to keep on the board circling if theres things to set on fire.  A smart player will leave the board fearing the Ravens but most will risk a turn to kill a unit like bikes.  Once in behind a Helldrake with a Raven its usually all over. 

Always always these days take Hurricane Bolters on Ravens.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

2" spread means nothing as you have Torrent. That means you will hit at least 4 with the template and probably 3 with the fly by. So 2 can wipe out a tactical squad or assault squad per turn.

 

They are broken. It's not a myth or an exaggeration.x

 

Thank god the rest of the Chaos army is so lacklustre.

Sama you are on the money, the HD is murder on MEQ armies. What I mean to say from the other thread about how the HD is overinflated in popularity is that players running Light Infantry (commonly IG, Orks, Nids) are not spacing out properly. Losing 7 low cost models per turn isn't very awesome, but that isn't what is happening. The Light Infantry guys are bunching up and allowing the HD to be useful against them too, by letting the templates kill 8 models or more sometimes.

 

The Light Infantry spammers should be a counterbalance to the meta against HD but I say again-- not many people play spread out like they should. Not to mention Light Infantry armies can and should be denying places for the HD to 'land' behind them through sheer body placement, thus preventing Vector Strikes at all.

 

As far as the rest of the CSM codex being lackluster... personally the builds I run with them are more powerful that anything I put together for BA. People are so busy spamming HD in their Fast Attack slots they are ignoring the Bikers. CSM Bikers are where I'm making my money.

[knife&fork]

CSM troops are not that great, that's their problem really. They are not awful, just underwhelming and difficult to match with the really good stuff in that book.

 

As for spamming the Heldrakes I think 2 of them and a unit of bikers is what you usually see in a tough list. And then another pair of fliers in the allied detachment.

Not easy to keep some sort of air superiority vs a list like that with BA as your main detachment.

[SamaNagol]

All of CSM, DA and arguably Chaos Daemons are all let down by ineffective Troops slots.

 

The one thing going for C:CD is their troops cost a pittance, but they die in droves.

 

The CSM dex would have been a huge flop if not for the Heldrake FAQ change.

 

CAG how are you making Bikes work out of interest? Sure they are dirt cheap, but they die just as easily as Ravenwing bikes do. Spawn are commonly viewed as the superior option, no? When I first got the book, the bikes did actually jump out first. 20pts is dirt cheap.

 

With regards to dealing with Heldrakes unfortunately the only reliable way is to ally in IG. Which is a bit ridiculous but that's just fact at the moment.

 

Until a Saber Defence Platform equivalent is available to all, Heldrakes are going to be a big pain in the butt

[IK Viper]

I always hear that "troops are lack luster," but I honestly hear that about basically every book that comes out except SW.  What exactly must be done in order for troops to be deamed "good?"  I mean in all honesty I think that is the point, troops are NOT elites,  they should not be hardened killers, but you need them becasue of their battlefield role (scoring).  This seams to be a trend in the 6th ed. books and I am ok with it.  I would argure that plague bearers, cultists, and DA tacticals that can take a heavy weapon in a 5 man squad is pretty decent,  I just think people are so eager to make a smash list that anything that cannot blow away enemy units is considered "lack luster," there is nothing "lack luster" about a unit that comes with shrouding and an inv. save (cover against most stuff, inv. against cover ignoring, and they are cheap) 

[CitadelArmyGuy]

CAG how are you making Bikes work out of interest? Sure they are dirt cheap, but they die just as easily as Ravenwing bikes do. Spawn are commonly viewed as the superior option, no? When I first got the book, the bikes did actually jump out first. 20pts is dirt cheap.

 

With regards to dealing with Heldrakes unfortunately the only reliable way is to ally in IG. Which is a bit ridiculous but that's just fact at the moment.

 

Until a Saber Defence Platform equivalent is available to all, Heldrakes are going to be a big pain in the butt

I tried Khorne Bikes first, found them not as great as I'd theoried. Slaanesh were really good but only versus MEQ, and I was failing FnP from their expensive Icon which is a pain to keep hidden. After about 10 games of playtesting, I've landed on Nurgle Bikers as my favorite (they were the lowest in my original theoried estimation). For 270pts, a Unit of Toughness 6 with 10 wounds is monster when supported by a Mastery3 Telepathy Sorceror. Telepathy provides a way to get Fearless, or Invisibility, or both. Chance to receive Invisibility is 1/6 + 1/5 + 1/4 = 61.67% chance.

 

The IG comment is a good one, but there are a lot of hopefuls who are praying that the Tau will represent the first step towards Flyer-Meta balance. Rumors of 2+ Sv Broadsides with Str8 AP1 Skyfire may just provide an excellent counter to the HD specifically, but I'm not sure it will reduce the overall Flyer dominance.

 

I think what irks most people about the HD resonates as a complaint across all Flyers---- Flyers don't let you play the game. It is the same reason why FlamerScreamers got hate. It isn't a complaint about a Unit being "too good" it is actually a complaint about Units which ignore how the game is played. Basically: "Ok now I'm going to fly around and you are going to watch me do it, without any way to interact"

 

Good games involve Interaction, where both Players have Give and Take. Flyer-lists remove interaction, because 1/3rd of the game is nullset (melee), 1/3 of the game you can barely affect them (movement) and they remove ~83% of the shooting phase. The only way to interact with a Flyer Player is to also have a Flyer. Even if you have Interceptor, that is not interaction--- that is simply a counter. Flyers suck the fun out of the game, IMHO. Not a complaint, just an observation.

[Morticon]

I think DA troops are incredible and you have an option of 4 of them. 

 

Chaos daemons are super cheap too so i dont buy that theyre not good.

 

Chaos marines have access to 5point cultists, which can become fearless.  

 

I think off most of the books, theyve gotten it most right, balance wise with these armies. 

[tomjoad]

I agree entirely with Mort on Dark Angels. The reason they aren't more fear (or at least respected) is that the HD completely overshadows anything with a 3+ save. If they had proper flier defense I think you'd see a lot more Green (power armor) Tide lists. In fact, if they released a new BA book and the only change was to drop the points on our HQs and troops as much as DA got dropped, I wouldn't complain a bit.

[SamaNagol]

Marines with bolters suck. Sorry. They always will.

 

Cultists are average, they are TERRIBLE at holding objectives too. Plague Zombies are just tar pits or character delivery systems.

 

Daemons have the best of the new troops. I await to see how they perform with combos. Daemonettes look the best so far.

 

/

 

I totally agree about the Flyer rules being a failure in terms of game design and 'fun'. They play like some homebrew unit you would make up rules for when you were a young teen getting into the game. Heldrakes are even worse because they basically ignore the drawbacks of flyers (having to fly in patterns limiting their fire arcs)